Society and politicians don't value me. Do you? (Single, non-homeowner, no children)

[LisaM]

Seriously.

I keep hearing how things are going to get better for HOMEOWNDERS, PARENTS, FAMILIES.

What if you're single, rent, and don't have any of those things? (and, BTW, won't. I do have a partner, probably for life. But we're not married, we most likely never will be, we don't own a house, and won't ever have children).

My main fear in life is being poor and sick in retirement. So healthcare is my number one issue.

DO YOU CARE ABOUT ME? I won't benefit from tax breaks (I don't itemize and never have). I want to know that when I get old, I won't be stranded in some horrible place on a fixed income trying to balance whether food or medicine is more important).

I never hear the politicians talk about ME.

[Taverner]

1. For some reason, politicans go ga-ga for families

Children and Churches, as Bill Maher said :)

[LisaM]

3. It's not as if I'm against any of those things

But I often feel marginalized. What good is a tax break on a mortgage going to do for me? Zip.

(BTW, for those who care, I ALWAYS vote yes on school, transit, etc.) I value YOU. I want to know if you care about me.

[Taverner]

5. I care about you!!!!

Who else is going to regale me with stories of singlehood? :)

[LisaM]

6. Most of my writer's group?

The only person who could be considered "married" is gay. So he's not really.

We have

single and loving it
Confirmed single
Single but sorta dating online
My partner and me
Divorced woman
Gay guy who would be married if possible, wears a ring, proudly carries a domestic partnership card.

Ironically, he's about the only one targeted by the current crop of nominees (because they own a house).

[Taverner]

8. Any stories of misspent youth in there?

Heavy emphasis on the misspent part

[LisaM]

11. Sure, and what about misspent adulthood?

Whaddya wanna know?

[Taverner]

15. Every do anything that would make me go "Zoinks!"?

[LisaM]

17. Probably not....does trestling count?

where you hang off railroad ties while a train goes by?

[LisaM]

7. PS and back at you!

I care about you, too!

[Tommy_Carcetti]

2. If politicians talked about me all the time....

....I'd be pretty worried. And a bit freaked out.

[LisaM]

4. Yes, but what about EVER?

Does a single, non-property owner, childless person MATTER to politicians?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

12. Actually, Representative Paul W. Hodes (D-New Hampshire, 2nd District) was just talking about you...

Said, "How's that LisaM doing these days? What's she been up to?"

So hope is not necessarily lost after all.

[Maccagirl]

41. Seriously, no they don't care

I'm a 52 year old never-married, childless (not really by choice)who had my verion of the American "dream" (a small condo) basically taken away from me because of the high cost of prescription drugs. I sold it at a loss and am now living with my 90-year-old mom. I am invisable.

[Fran Kubelik]

9. Nope, can't stand you.

:P

[LisaM]

13. Nice Amelia Earhart avatar!

I've had a crush on dead people too, don't feel alone!

Oh, and I like to borrow other peoples' kids to cadge rides on Ferris Wheels.......

[Rabrrrrrr]

10. Single and childless people are non-people in this society. We count for nothing,

except as people to fill in at work for the people who need to leave early for their children, or to work holidays to cover for the people who have families, and therefore more right to enjoy the holiday.

[LisaM]

14. Or at Christmas......

yeah, I've been there. Sigh.

(Worse: I worked at a DAYCARE - where, because I didn't have kids, it was somehow acceptable to people who did to pick their kids up late because *I* didn't have to go home to kids. Never mind that I had dogs I was responsible for. I actually had one person come half an hour late, and laugh at the fact that I was anxious to get home to my very young puppies to let them out).

[JoDog]

33. I hear you loud and clear

There are times that I even feel invisible to the wait staff at the hot dog joint in town. The waitresses fall all over themselves to get a family's order while I wait...and wait...and wait.

I'm also sick of this idea among some parents that their child tax credit is free money. It isn't. It is coming right out of my pocket.

[Rabrrrrrr]

44. The child tax credit is the biggest fucking obnoxious scam ever.

"I want children - you pay for them".

Yeah, fuck you (not you, JoDog, the assholes who demand that their taxes be lowered because they have children)

[Midlodemocrat]

47. However, IIRC, it mainly goes to the working poor

or those who are just 'middle class'. I don't have a problem with that. :shrug:

[Rabrrrrrr]

51. Whoops - dammit - I meant the standard child deduction.

Though the child tax credit is also an obnoxious bit of "fuck the childless".

I keep forgetting that we actually have two deductions for children.

[Midlodemocrat]

54. I see your point, but it does cost a fortune to raise kids.

At TM's and BoyMidlo's school, I probably spent $4000 over the course of two years in 'fees'. And, this is a public school.

And, I did choose to have them, so if I didn't get the break, that would be me having to suck it up, but some folks can't afford to suck it up. That $9000 or so they get from the three kids makes the difference between a refund or paying.

In all honesty, I prefer to see the brakes put on most forms of corporate welfare. I had a neighbor who incorporated his chiropractor's office and wrote off everything. His car. Wife would shop for kids clothes at Target and use the corporate AMEX and put down 'office supplies' in the memo.

That's more offensive to me. And, probably you, too I bet.

[LisaM]

57. Oh, yeah, totally. Close those loopholes. And public schools shouldn't incur fees.

I do bristle at government money going to vouchers and charter schools. That tees me off. I am happy to pay my share of the public school pot. I am very UNHAPPY to have a nickel going to schools privatized in any form.

[Midlodemocrat]

58. It's ridiculous here.

I paid over $400 for TM last year just so she could set foot in the school the first day. That didn't include a $375 show choir fee, or the $725 fee for the trip to perform and compete in Disney World.

It's just insane. And, the thing that really upsets me is that the administration here is laboring under the delusion that everyone in this area is wealthy. Couldn't be further from the truth. Some people work their asses off at two jobs each so that their kids can attend these schools. It's not fair.

[Midlodemocrat]

46. I don't feel that way. Not in the slightest.

My dearest friend on the planet is a middle aged female who is not married and has no children. She is no less important than me.

[Rabrrrrrr]

52. YOU might care, and other individuals might care - but society doesn't care.

The government doesn't care.

Although the government does love single young people who are of military age.

[Midlodemocrat]

55. But individuals like me, and you, and others on this site

are going to force this country to come into the 21st century in regards to GLBT rights. So, maybe individuals are the right place to start.

[Withywindle]

16. I'm with you, LisaM!

Been wondering for a long time when "citizens" stopped mattering, and it became all about "families" and "consumers."

[LisaM]

18. THANK YOU.

I often wish I was at a town hall meeting and could state my case, ask my question.

Tax breaks mean NADA to me. Services and a societal support network mean EVERYTHING.

[LisaM]

19. Well, I think my point has been made

We have about five or six people who care enough to say anything.


Marginally yours,

LisaM

[La Lioness Priyanka]

20. I am an immigrant, gay, woman of color...

politicians really dont care about me.

:hi"

[LisaM]

22. I believe you

Don't you wish there would be an unscripted town hall where you could confront a politician and just holler, 'WHAT ABOUT ME??????'

[Fran Kubelik]

23. Oh but they do!

The rally around you. Get those gays and immigrants away from our children!! And stop giving preference to people just because they are minorities! You're taking jobs away from white males!!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

25. true. i belong to some well despised groups

[Fran Kubelik]

30. did you see 30 days a couple of weeks ago

I am well-hated too. A gay person with a kid. It's shockingly wrong.

[newmajority]

34. Oh that's ridiculous. Gays don't have children. That's why they RECRUIT !1!!!11!!!

And give out toasters and stuff. I know that's the truth because Pat Robertson told me so. O8)





































:sarcasm:<------- I hope I didn't really need to add this, but what the Hell. :evilgrin:

[LisaM]

27. You're right there

I guess it's a crap shoot - is it better to be hated, or ignored?

[SacredCow]

24. Their loss, Pri.....

:hug:

[SacredCow]

21. Well, I'm a homeowner and a parent....

... but I'm also gay, which trumps the other 2- I assure you!

I guess the only option I currently have is to find a woman to "marry" (perhaps someone who needs access to my health insurance options) so I can have the tax breaks associated with marriage. Of course, then the fundies would scream about how I'm committing fraud....

[LisaM]

26. But do you see how tax breaks are not a cure all

for someone without kids and a house? Whenever I hear the phrase, I want to run screaming from the room.

There are many millions of people who do not own a house, do not itemize their taxes, do not have kids, who have legitimate concerns about our future. Who's for us?

[SacredCow]

28. Oh, of course not....

I was just sayin. Tax breaks are just one small part of it.

[The2ndWheel]

29. Politicians and society are about increasing the number of people

within any given social structure. Childless single renters are not about that. You are pretty much the opposite of what mass society needs in order to survive. I'm right there with you, by the way. I'd give you a standing ovation if I wasn't so lazy.

If you do get to retire, the sooner you go the better. You'll take up fewer resources that are needed for those who actually contribute to the massing of mass society. You have no grandkids or kids that governments and corporations can squeeze for any penny possible. What exactly would you be needed for?

Once you get that you are not what politicians want, and you are not what society needs, your main fear becomes pointless. The only reason you're around pre-retirement is that you were a contributor to the massing of mass society. You were a kid and grandkid for the corporations and governments to squeeze. If that ends with you, then you are of no use the longer you stick around.

I say, enjoy life with your partner. Don't worry so much. There are consequences for every action(even for the having-to-name-a-baby married homeowners), and those just happen to be the ones for childless single renters. Enjoy your obsoleteness. If you do it right, it can be quite freeing.

[LisaM]

31. Yeah, but I kind of want to be loved, too

I know, it's a fruitless quest.

I *am* a consumer, but no one targets me.

[jobycom]

32. Sounds like you are trying to take yourself out of the being-cared-about market.

Seriously, if you don't own a house, don't itemize (though you still are affected by tax rates and standardize deduction changes, even if you don't itemize), etc, then it's not anyone else's fault that you aren't taking advantage of what's out there for you. Society, through government, helps people buy homes, but you don't want one. Society helps people invest, but you don't want to. Etc.

We need universal healthcare, but no one is even considering it this time through. Obama's got some changes in mind, but unless you buy into them, you won't be able to take advantage of that, either.

If you are forbidden to marry, then that's not your fault, and that needs to be changed.

I guess I don't have much sympathy, honestly. I don't have anything against you, or any anger towards you, but you seem proud of not taking any steps towards making your own situation better. If you had others depending on you, and because of that dependence you were having troubles, then I'd say society should help you out. If you have some disability that curtails earning or creates roadblocks to self-sufficiency, same thing. If you were looking for a boost to get you started on your own path, such as help buying a house or starting a business, same thing. But I don't see that society should be giving money to a healthy, able person who just chooses not to plan or invest. Aside from universal healthcare, but even that would be paid for through your taxes.

And as soon as I get a divorce, I will be a single, broke, non-homeowner with no retirement plan and more debt than some nations, so I'm not in a completely different category than you.

What are you wanting politicians to say, exactly, I guess is my question?

[Fran Kubelik]

35. Way to talk down to someone making some really excellent points

:thumbsup:

[LisaM]

36. I don't make enough money to buy a house (and neither do lots of other people)

as far as being married and childless, that's not particularly my choice. Neither came my way. What can I say?

I have a college degree, but worked in jobs for a while (bookstore, daycare) that didn't pay enough to save any money. Now I am saving some money and I'm not in debt, but I simply cannot afford home ownership.

It's not always a choice. This is what Life handed me. I would like politicians to acknowledge that people like me have a place in society, and that to some extent, society should take care of me when I'm old, especially if I'm alone. I've paid in all these years. I pay school taxes, and help my landlord pay property taxes. I pay sales tax and municipal taxes. I don't drain much from the system, and it probably does well by me.

I just never hear anyone say, "well, if you're single and don't own property, you will STILL do better under my administration because......"

What are things that would be good for me?

Healthcare.
The ability to walk around safely, alone, at night.
Sidewalks in my neighborhood.
Police on a beat.
Safe parks, more museums in my town (Seattle).
Safe transit.
Oh yeah, and that thing at work where people who have kids leave all the time while I hold the bag and they never even freaking THANK me.....


Etc.

[Withywindle]

38. Lots of people who couldn't afford home ownership were told they could.

Now they have a mountain of debt and a house that's losing its value and are likely facing foreclosure.


I'm a renter with no debt, like you. I can't bring myself to envy the "homeowners" in the above situation. I think they're worse off than me, frankly. I think I was wise not to fall for the "help" I was offered; it would have been no help at all.

[LisaM]

39. Well, yeah. There is that.

I didn't fall for it either. I refused to take a mortgage where I was doing nothing but pay off the interest. And most mortgages in Seattle are at least $2K a month. I can't afford that.

[Withywindle]

59. I feel sorry for them, but...

I may have nothing, but at least I don't have LESS than nothing, which is what people in heavy debt really have.

[jobycom]

40. I hear all that, but I still don't really see where you (or I) are being ignored.

First, I have kids, so I'm not in the same boat there. But I've made a lot less than someone of my abilities should have. Partly that's luck, but largely it's the result of me making conscious sacrifices in a career for my kids.

You do have police who patrol the streets, parks, city transit if you live in the right place, and more vague stuff like monetary controls and guaranteed banking--recite the Preamble, in other words. The argument about school taxes for people without children is an old one, but the standard answer is that all of society benefits by educating the next generation, who become our doctors, engineers, leaders, etc.

You get the world around you for the taxes you contribute. Right now that's not the best world it could be, but it's not the worst, either.

Most of the stuff you said in your OP that you don't get or don't have addressed are advantages given to people who want or need them, and you are offered them, too, but don't take them. Plus, they are things which contribute more to the strength of the economy. Owning a home contributes more than renting an apartment--you build more savings as well as stimulating the market with your purchase. Thus, government encourages that. You could start a family, but haven't--the reasons don't change the reality. You could buy a house--I bought my first while I was in grad school living off student loans, part time jobs, and my spouse's entry-level wages. Difficult, but by using certain government programs--HUD, government foreclosure sales, mainly--I managed. Not saying there's anything wrong with not choosing those routes, just that it's available to you, and it's specifically designed for people like you.

You just seemed resentful in the OP. I don't get that, I guess. Sure, single, family-less, non-homeowners don't get the government's singular attention as often, but they don't have as complicated needs, either. Or, rather (since everyone's life has its own complications), what I mean is, if you take the complications in your life, and add to them the complications of a house and kids, you things get worse. Those are concerns government, society, addresses. The rest are sort of included in the standard package we all get.

Healthcare, yes, we need, in order to be considered a civilized nation, I believe. But even that will benefit families more than single people.

[LisaM]

45. I don't know where you live but housing in Seattle is expensive

and has been driven up enormously in the time I've lived here. When I gradudated from college, I didn't have a spouse or partner. I absolutely could not afford to buy a house. My take home pay was something like $485 every two weeks. When I moved to Seattle, I made even less. By the time things settled and we were renting together, my entry-level job (in the 90s) paid about $13K. I do better now, but the market has passed me by in spades. Average house here now costs about $425K. How do I afford that?

What politicians could do for me - insure a safe town (I don't even feel safe walking home from the bus - there are three options, one is a bridge where gang members sometimes hang out, the other two are one way streets where the traffic ignores pedestrians and there are no sidewalks), frequent transit, safe neighborhoods, give renters more rights, etc.

I don't mind paying in to schools. I always vote yes. But when we had a council person - ONE PERSON IN THE WHOLE HISTORY OF WHEN I'VE LIVED HERE - who talked about renter's rights and rent control, they quickly found a way to get rid of her. Renters have almost zero rights - I could be evicted at any time if they choose to raze my house and build condos which, given the mayor we have now, is likely. When we had a bill that slashed the car tab prices on luxury cars (a tax that went to roads, transit, parks) people voted for it. They don't get my needs. And politicians don't cater to them.

I think you are being really cold. My point was that I don't think society values me. Obviously you don't!!!!!! I consume. I pay taxes. I work. I don't commit crimes. I am a member of two book groups and a writer's group. I babysit for friends. I give parties. I volunteer my cooking abilitites for charity. I give to political campaigns - I work on campaigns. Can't you treat me as important?

[jobycom]

65. I couldn't afford a house in Austin then, either.

So I bought a house 30 miles from town, in a poor neighborhood, in a house smaller than my current apartment--which isn't very big itself. Like I said, that was important to me. I had an infant, a spouse with a job, and me with no income aside from university-type jobs--researcher for four or five hours a week, grader. I cooked red beans and white rice, flavored with an onion. And eggs. Little else. We ate on about ten bucks a week, including the infant when she began solid foods. No new clothes, no cable, a septic tank that backed into the house and no money to fix it, a car that couldn't make it up some of the hills in town.

I can understand not taking that route, but it's there.

As for renter's rights, I agree. I tried to get a local legislator interested in a bill controlling deposit requirements, especially for pets, and damage restrictions and such. He is a very liberal legislator who I know a little, and a friend of mine worked for and around. He told me (through my friend) that it was a dead end proposition, that the real estate lobby was too powerful. Apparently it comes up a lot.

As for valuing you, that's not an issue I've considered. Sounds like you do wonderful things, and I value for that. It just sounded to me like you were complaining that no one gave you greater value than others, no politician singled you out as special and gave you special guarantees for retirement for being special. I just don't see that. You are valued as much as any voter, any taxpayer. You aren't butt-kissed, maybe, but that's probably a good thing--politicians don't mean it, anyway. You are given the same options others are. True, those options aren't as much as we should be doing as a society, but that's an issue of not valuing you over families or homeowners--that's just what you get in a world where Republicans are allowed to run things.

There are people who need help just to stay alive, and I always squirm when I hear people who don't complaining about being ignored while others get attention. I have a schizophrenic invalid brother, an alcoholic sister, two nieces whose alcoholic mom has all but abandoned them, a grand niece from one of those single teen-age nieces whose mother can't take care of her, and two parents whose retirement from investments after a life as an electrician on an oil rig and an unsuccessful worm farmer is gone, spent on trying to raise grandkids and an invalid son and now a great granddaughter with multiple health problems. Oh yeah, and a father who can barely walk and talk after his second stroke, so that my mother has to work, at nearly 70, just to eat. I don't make enough money to help them, but at least I don't burden them further, and that makes me the raging success in my family. Luckily, my criminally drug-addicted other brother died a few years ago, so at least he's not causing more problems. And through it all, I know a lot of people, as I'm sure you do, who are far worse off than that. I'm just more concerned about how the government and society value them than how they value me or you.

[LisaM]

67. But if I don't feel that *I* have a safety net - all those others have even less

of one. At some point, everyone needs to matter, at least as far as the basics - food, clothing, healthcare, shelter. I do have a fear sometime that I will be old and completely alone, with a tiny fixed income.

Interesting about the real estate lobby. I should probably call my city council.

[LisaM]

37. Oh, and by the way.....how do I take these "steps"

towards "bettering", as you put it, my situation? How do I magically get enough money to buy a house in the Seattle market? How do I make someone marry me?

[jobycom]

42. You're on your own on the marriage thing.

If you want it and your partner doesn't, you have to capitulate or find a new one. If you don't want one, then don't get one. I wasn't saying you had to marry to better yourself, I was saying you have the same options as others, you've just not used them. If I were blind, I would be able to use the protection of the ADA, but I don't feel cheated that I don't need those protections, and I'm glad they are offered to others.

As for a house, you save and take advantage of government programs, and you lose a lot of other stuff you want. If you want the other stuff more, fine, but again my point was that you are offered these options, but choose other options instead. And, you benefit, even as a renter, since government programs that help people on lower incomes buy houses keep the housing market more affordable, which keeps rental costs lower as well.

If you're just upset that politicians don't single you out, sorry I said anything. It just sounded from the OP that you felt others were getting benefits you weren't, and that you wanted someone to give you those things. Sorry if I misunderstood.

[Lorien]

69. Not everyone CAN get a suitable partner. The idea that there is a man for

every woman is a lie. Women outnumber men, which is why 51% of the women in this country are single. 12% of men are gay, while only 2% of women are gay. Then there's the issue of abusers, misogynists and other unsuitable partners. "Find a new one" and "if you don't want one, don't get one" can only apply to men, because they are the ones almost guaranteed to find partners if they just "choose" to "go get one". It doesn't work both ways because you can't change the math.

[Rabrrrrrr]

48. And here we see the discrimination - "Just better yourself - get a house and kids and spouse".

:puke:

Christ. That's the whole goddamned point of the thread - not everyone believes that the only way to "better yourself" (or to live properly, etc.) is to have a house, spouse, and kids.

Talk about missing the point.

:eyes:

[Fran Kubelik]

50. Thank you, rabrrrrrrr

You said exactly what I was thinking.

[LisaM]

53. Well I don't want to single out Jobycom who took the time to participate

but I did notice the language, too. I'm pretty sure it was inadvertent, but YEAH. What's "better" about a person who has had the opportunity to marry and have kids, or who has the means to afford a house?

[LostInAnomie]

43. A professor of mine used to say that singles w/o kids are the most discriminated against people...

... in America. Legally sanctioned discrimination, at least.

We pay more on taxes.
We pay more on insurance.
We are more likely to go to jail and serve longer sentences.
We are less likely to get apartments.
We are less likely to get jobs.
We are less likely to get days off work.
We are less likely to get organ transplants.
We are less likely to be allowed to adopt children.

It's a load of shit.

[LisaM]

49. Pay more in taxes and get less from them

I wonder if there are studies on that?

[Lorien]

68. and to top it off, they call us "SELFISH"

yep, that's it. I'm "selfish" for not being loved or adding another "miracle" to the 6.5 "miracles" already inhabiting the earth. Oh, and I'll work weekends so that my coworkers with loving families can spend quality time enjoying their loving families, plus that way there's little chance that I'll ever meet an S.O. of my own.

:banghead:

[siouxsiecreamcheese]

70. Amen to that!

:thumbsup:

[Withywindle]

71. Not to mention...

...how much of a "miracle" is it when a teenager can do it in a toilet 9 months after getting drunk on prom night? :evilgrin:

[Lorien]

74. Oops, left the word "billion" out of that sentence

but I'm sure everyone knew what I was talking about.

:dunce:

[mikeytherat]

56. Married 18 years + childless by choice = "there is something wrong with you"

I think Mrs. Rat and I have so many gay friends because, at least in this small instance, "traditional American society" views us the same: we have made a conscious choice to stick a finger into the eye of "traditional American society." If we had a nickel for each crappy thing we've had to endure sprinkled with the obligatory, "Well, you don't have kids," we'd be Bill and Melinda f**king Gates.

mikey_the_rat

[stuntcat]

60. yah, 15 years here, and no multiplication..

My family totally accepts it, and most of our friends, but his family wants us to have a baby so bad. I'm looking forward to our dinner date with them tonight :eyes:

There's no way in hell I'd make another consumer, or give the rest of this century to anyone.



Everything does seem to be aimed at heavily consuming families, I've had to stop watching tv because the commercials make me even sadder than the news.

[mikeytherat]

62. We've even had some people think we're both gay and in a sham marriage!

Seriously! I thought it was really cool, since I'm a pretty boring guy and that's the most "exotic" thing anyone has ever thought about me!

mikey_the_rat

[stuntcat]

64. oh I hope that's what they think about us!

half our friends are gay too, so maybe that's assumed about us. Hhmmmm, maybe that's what I need to start trying to tell his mom :P since she can't understand my real reason.

[Withywindle]

66. Hahahah!

About 12 years ago when I was still with my ex-fiance (we'd been dating about a year, didn't live together yet), one of his co-workers asked him why we didn't have a baby yet! :wtf:


Birth control exists, folks. Lots of people use it, I swear.

[Mutley]

61. Of course. I care about all people, regardless of their "status."

For now, I'm like you. I'm single, not a parent and I rent my home. But even if I do get married/have kids/buy a house, I will still care about people with your lifestyle.

[Blue_Tires]

63. my dear people like you and i are america's free-floating spare parts...

[undeterred]

72. Same boat.

They don't value me either.

[undeterred]

73. Single people are invisible.

Society's garbage.

[Danger Mouse]

75. Yeah, sucks to be us, doesn't it?