"The Dark Knight": a few quirky comments and questions (spoilers, obviously)

[kay1864]

1. I was majorly impressed with this movie, and Ledger stole every scene he was in. Comparable to the on-screen presence of Hannibal Lecter or Wicked Witch of the West (ie memorable in every scene). And the Nolan boys gave him some great lines, exploring the mind of a sociopath to a chilling degree.

2. The menace of this film hit us in the first few minutes when the clown shot the other clown in the head. These weren't henchmen as we're used to seeing, but rather cold-blooded thugs.

3. For many moviegoers this will be an excellent action film. But as many DUers have noticed, below that surface layer is an intense study of morality. The Joker pushes his moral dilemmas on others (Bruce Wayne, the ferry passengers), making them question their own values.

4. Quibble #1: "Here's my card" was a different take than in the trailer, and a minor let-down.

5. Sly reference to Catwoman re his new suit. "Attacks by dogs. What about cats?" My guess is she'll be the villain in the next film.

6. Quibble #2: After all the setup of Batman doing a jump from an airplane (even showing us the oxygen mask)...we didn't see said jump. Or the landing on the airplane in-flight. Either show the whole scene, or cut it entirely--what's the point of showing us only the setup?

7. How about that reveal that Alfred is a badass? "What did you do about the bandit?" "Oh we burned down the forest, sir"

8. Quibble #3: We didn't see (or hear) Lau being burned alive atop the pile of money. A quick shot of him screaming would have added to the horror of Ledger's Joker.

9. Why did Dent shout "NOooo!" when the gasoline spilled? After all, he was already going to be blown up. (from the trailer, I thought the liquid was acid, but it wasn't)

10. Holy crap, a bomb planted under someone's skin. Underscored the Joker's complete lack of morality.

11. This movie was filmed largely ON LOCATION (exteriors, that is). Not a backlot, but rather the streets of Chicago. The hospital blowing up was real, not CGI (condemned building). The fire behind Ledger was real. Thus he had only one take.

12. I can't help but wonder how much of Ledger's sleeplessness was related to his immersion in this character. From Wikipedia: "To prepare for the role, Ledger lived alone in a hotel room for a month, formulating the character's posture, voice and psychology, and kept a diary, in which he recorded the Joker's thoughts and feelings to guide himself during his performance."

His death occurred a very short time after the film wrapped. So short that several in the media wondered if all of his scenes had been completed.

13. Excellent, disturbing, thought-provoking movie. Transcendent.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Yeah, I didn't like it.

"1. I was majorly impressed with this movie, and Ledger stole every scene he was in. Comparable to the on-screen presence of Hannibal Lecter or Wicked Witch of the West (ie memorable in every scene). And the Nolan boys gave him some great lines, exploring the mind of a sociopath to a chilling degree."

It reminded me of Brad Pitt in 12 Monkeys, DiCaprio in Gilbert Grape, or Tom Hanks in Forrest Gump.

"2. The menace of this film hit us in the first few minutes when the clown shot the other clown in the head. These weren't henchmen as we're used to seeing, but rather cold-blooded thugs."

Yes, we see the Joker killing his henchmen to get their share of the loot. Later, we see him recruiting more henchmen. Then we see him burning a large pile of money. Because he doesn't really care about loot.

"3. For many moviegoers this will be an excellent action film. But as many DUers have noticed, below that surface layer is an intense study of morality. The Joker pushes his moral dilemmas on others (Bruce Wayne, the ferry passengers), making them question their own values."

Yet the action sequences were rather dull. The best is a chase seen under Chicago's L-trains. Although I've seen more entertaining chase scenes under Chicago's L's.

The big pen-ultimate action sequence was about as exciting as watching somebody else play a videogame. I mean, they gave Batman two knew superpowers for this movie, the first was superhuman strength which he used once when he bent the barrel of a bad guy's gun with one hand (Superman's going to be upset when he finds out Batman stole his bit). And the other was omniscience. Yeesh.

And the premise of that sequence? He has to beat up the cops because they think the hostages are terrorists? Talk about contrived.

The Jokers moral dilemmas? Forcing victims to make a choice between two horrible options? If that sounds familiar it's because we've seen that before- that's the "Jigsaw Killer" from the Saw franchise. Only here, there's no tension, because there's no reason to care about the victims, they only exist to support the dilemma. Which ferry is going to blow up which? Who cares?

Now Batman himself has two dilemmas. The public hates and fears him, and he thinks maybe he should hang up his cape, only we saw that done in X-men and Spiderman 2 respectively. And they were done properly there. Here they're only cliches. Throw away plot twists. If the character doesn't really care about his moral dilemmas, why should we as the audience care?

"4. Quibble #1: "Here's my card" was a different take than in the trailer, and a minor let-down."

Meh. The trailer's irrelevant.

"5. Sly reference to Catwoman re his new suit. "Attacks by dogs. What about cats?" My guess is she'll be the villain in the next film."

God, what cheesy exposition. "Here's your new and improved batsuit, Batman. But look out! It makes you more vulnerable to knives!"

"6. Quibble #2: After all the setup of Batman doing a jump from an airplane (even showing us the oxygen mask)...we didn't see said jump. Or the landing on the airplane in-flight. Either show the whole scene, or cut it entirely--what's the point of showing us only the setup?"

One of numerous continuity errors. OK, that's to be expected when one of the actors dies halfway through production, but some of them were just stupid. I half expected to see Ed Wood's dentist show up.

"7. How about that reveal that Alfred is a badass? "What did you do about the bandit?" "Oh we burned down the forest, sir""

Alfred and Commissioner Gordon were the only interesting characters in the film.

"8. Quibble #3: We didn't see (or hear) Lau being burned alive atop the pile of money. A quick shot of him screaming would have added to the horror of Ledger's Joker."

More sloppiness.

"9. Why did Dent shout "NOooo!" when the gasoline spilled? After all, he was already going to be blown up. (from the trailer, I thought the liquid was acid, but it wasn't)"

Scenery chewing. The whole Dent subplot was tacked on, unnecessary and contrived. The whole "good DA" business was the Rachel character's role in the first one, and they completely pushed her aside for this. You can see why Glyenhaal wanted out of the franchise.

"10. Holy crap, a bomb planted under someone's skin. Underscored the Joker's complete lack of morality."

Kind of silly, wasn't it? I mean, he would have blown himself up if he hadn't known the cop was going to, somehow, let himself get beaten up and leave the interrogation room unlocked. I think there might have been a scene in there somewhere that didn't get filmed before Ledger's death.

"11. This movie was filmed largely ON LOCATION (exteriors, that is). Not a backlot, but rather the streets of Chicago. The hospital blowing up was real, not CGI (condemned building). The fire behind Ledger was real. Thus he had only one take."

The demolition was real, a lot of the effects were enhanced, I bet, with CGI.

"12. I can't help but wonder how much of Ledger's sleeplessness was related to his immersion in this character. From Wikipedia: "To prepare for the role, Ledger lived alone in a hotel room for a month, formulating the character's posture, voice and psychology, and kept a diary, in which he recorded the Joker's thoughts and feelings to guide himself during his performance."

His death occurred a very short time after the film wrapped. So short that several in the media wondered if all of his scenes had been completed."

Meh. Nicholson and Romero were better Jokers. This one didn't even tell any jokes.

"13. Excellent, disturbing, thought-provoking movie. Transcendent."

A perfect example of everything wrong with modern big-budget Hollywood movies. Lots of explosions and fist fights to distract the audience from plot holes, continuity errors, characters acting out of character as various unnecessary plot twists call for it, and the inability to suspend disbelief. And I don't mean disbelief as in people dressed up like Bats, but people acting in very stupid ways for nonsensical reason. Convolutions as a substitute for depth, the same problem that cropped up with those awful Jason Bourne movies. This movie insulted the audiences intelligence.






MST3K would have had a field day with this movie.

[kay1864]

2. ...

"Yes, we see the Joker killing his henchmen to get their share of the loot. Later, we see him recruiting more henchmen. Then we see him burning a large pile of money. Because he doesn't really care about loot."
You apparently see this as a plot hole. I see this 'inconsistency' as evidence of his insanity. He stole the loot not from a real bank, but rather a mob-run bank. Intentionally. By the time he's burning the large pile of money, he already has the toys he wants. He even tells us he doesn't have a plan. "I'm a dog chasing cars"

"the first was superhuman strength which he used once when he bent the barrel of a bad guy's gun with one hand"
I wondered about that too, but apparently he used a grappling device that he uses later in the movie.

"Which ferry is going to blow up which? Who cares?"
Most of RadioLady's audience, for one. Me, for another.

"The trailer's irrelevant"
It's the take that's relevant, not the trailer. IMHO they chose the wrong one.

"One of numerous continuity errors."
It's not a continuity error per se, but rather a deleted scene. ie if they showed Batman and Lau getting on a boat, that would have been a continuity error. They didn't show us the aftermath at all.

"I mean, he would have blown himself up if he hadn't known the cop was going to, somehow, let himself get beaten up and leave the interrogation room unlocked. "
Well no, he just wouldn't have made the phone call. Plus he didn't beat up the cop, he held him hostage with a blade.

"Nicholson and Romero were better Jokers."
:eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

"he doesn't have a plan" is just a band-aid on various plot holes. Like all those plans he had.

""Which ferry is going to blow up which? Who cares?"
Most of RadioLady's audience, for one. Me, for another."

Why? Did you care about the, not one but two, cops who happened to have sick mothers in the hospital?

"Well no, he just wouldn't have made the phone call. Plus he didn't beat up the cop, he held him hostage with a blade."

The blade they found when they searched him?

[kay1864]

5. ...

"Why? Did you care about the, not one but two, cops who happened to have sick mothers in the hospital?"

Apples and oranges. We never saw the mothers in the hospital. Barely saw the cops.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. And we don't see the people on the ferry until they're gonna get blown up.

[kay1864]

24. ...

:wtf:

You really don't see the difference?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. Frankly, no.

There's also that bit about the blackmailer and the angry mob. Are we supposed to sympathize with either? More to the point, is it tense, exciting filmmaking? No. And besides, I'm pretty sure that was the plot of S.W.A.T.

[kay1864]

39. Okay, here you go:

See the passengers, see their faces, see their indecision, experience the minutes of imminent threat from the other boat, hear their voices, etc. ---> Care about them

Don't see the cop's moms, barely see the cops ---> Don't care about them much. I didn't even realize the cops *had* moms in the hospital until after they were moved out of the hospital.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

41. You see the cops.

You see the blackmailer.

:shrug:

[kay1864]

53. As I've already said...

"barely"

:shrug:

[unpossibles]

14. disagree

"1. It reminded me of Brad Pitt in 12 Monkeys, DiCaprio in Gilbert Grape, or Tom Hanks in Forrest Gump.
I disagree. He - the character - was a lot more believable than all of the above, imo.

"2. Yes, we see the Joker killing his henchmen to get their share of the loot. Later, we see him recruiting more henchmen. Then we see him burning a large pile of money. Because he doesn't really care about loot.
Again, disagree. His point for this was plainly stated more than once. He did not care about the money, he wanted to provoke the mob into moving their money out of fear of being robbed. He killed his henchmen to avoid having loose ends who may have ratted him out before he was ready.


"3. The big pen-ultimate action sequence was about as exciting as watching somebody else play a videogame. I mean, they gave Batman two knew superpowers for this movie, the first was superhuman strength which he used once when he bent the barrel of a bad guy's gun with one hand (Superman's going to be upset when he finds out Batman stole his bit). And the other was omniscience. Yeesh.

Hi strength was through a 'bat item' of some sort which is typical of the character - all of his powers are based on tech gadgets. You can hear the gadget in his hand/gauntlet when he bends the gun.

"And the premise of that sequence? He has to beat up the cops because they think the hostages are terrorists? Talk about contrived."

Ok, I kind of agree he could have radioed the cops to let them know what is going on, but it did not bother me either. Perhaps he was also concerned about crooked cops too.

"The Jokers moral dilemmas? Forcing victims to make a choice between two horrible options? If that sounds familiar it's because we've seen that before- that's the "Jigsaw Killer" from the Saw franchise. Only here, there's no tension, because there's no reason to care about the victims, they only exist to support the dilemma. Which ferry is going to blow up which? Who cares?

Now Batman himself has two dilemmas. The public hates and fears him, and he thinks maybe he should hang up his cape, only we saw that done in X-men and Spiderman 2 respectively. And they were done properly there. Here they're only cliches. Throw away plot twists. If the character doesn't really care about his moral dilemmas, why should we as the audience care?"
Batman predates Spiderman and the X-Men (which are also from different companies/universes) and this is a common theme in all three franchises, although handled differently by different writers.

"6. Quibble #2: After all the setup of Batman doing a jump from an airplane (even showing us the oxygen mask)...we didn't see said jump. Or the landing on the airplane in-flight. Either show the whole scene, or cut it entirely--what's the point of showing us only the setup?"

"One of numerous continuity errors. OK, that's to be expected when one of the actors dies halfway through production, but some of them were just stupid. I half expected to see Ed Wood's dentist show up."
Disagree - he never planned on jumping from a plane, just a really tall building and being picked up by a plane - which he did. The jumping from a plane thing struck me as an analogy, or perhaps just wanting that ability - to glide from a great height - something quite useful in his line of work.

"8. Quibble #3: We didn't see (or hear) Lau being burned alive atop the pile of money. A quick shot of him screaming would have added to the horror of Ledger's Joker."

"More sloppiness."
no, the PG-13 rating.

"10.Kind of silly, wasn't it? I mean, he would have blown himself up if he hadn't known the cop was going to, somehow, let himself get beaten up and leave the interrogation room unlocked. I think there might have been a scene in there somewhere that didn't get filmed before Ledger's death.

No - he triggered the bomb personally with the phone call

"Meh. Nicholson and Romero were better Jokers. This one didn't even tell any jokes."

lame. This joker - based on one of several retcon/reimaginings of the characters - was great and has a basis from the books, more so that the campy TV version (which I like, btw).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. Uh, what?

"I disagree. He - the character - was a lot more believable than all of the above, imo."

Believable? This guy was believable to you? Some guy with no past, no story, no motivation? The guy who's somehow able to infilitrate various aspects of the mobs and the city police with no effort, and apparent foreknowledge of future events?

"Again, disagree. His point for this was plainly stated more than once. He did not care about the money, he wanted to provoke the mob into moving their money out of fear of being robbed. He killed his henchmen to avoid having loose ends who may have ratted him out before he was ready."

Uh huh.

"Ok, I kind of agree he could have radioed the cops to let them know what is going on, but it did not bother me either. Perhaps he was also concerned about crooked cops too."

Riiight.

"Batman predates Spiderman and the X-Men (which are also from different companies/universes) and this is a common theme in all three franchises, although handled differently by different writers."

This movie postdates the Spiderman movie, the X-Men movie, the Saw franchise, and plenty of other things it rips off.

"Disagree - he never planned on jumping from a plane, just a really tall building and being picked up by a plane - which he did. The jumping from a plane thing struck me as an analogy, or perhaps just wanting that ability - to glide from a great height - something quite useful in his line of work."

It was exposition, with the obvious intention of including it some where, and then it never panned out. If Q gives Bond his latest invention, he's going to use it somewhere in the movie.

"no, the PG-13 rating."

Is the bit where Batman chops off a guys hand, throws dogs off of ledges, tortures prisoners, and Harvey Dent gets burned alive in a different, R-rated version?

[IndianaJones]

27. Is the bit where Batman chops off a guys hand, throws dogs off of ledges, tortures prisoners....

and Harvey Dent gets burned alive in a different, R-rated version?

That stuff is in the Frank Miller variant.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. Really?

Were those scenes taken from an actual graphic novel?

[IndianaJones]

31. no, the Frank Miller Dark Knight is good....and interesting..

unlike the drivel they feed to the short attention spans of todays movie goers.

Your original review is the best I've seen for this movie.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

34. I've heard about that particularly graphic novel.

I'll pick it up if I ever find it at the library.

I don't mind violent and fascistic interpretations of Batman, provided they're internally consistent. Not this stuff where he won't kill the Joker because that's immoral, but he's got no problem killing lots of henchmen, or other assorted arch-villains.

[IndianaJones]

36. it is the pinnacle of Batman in my opinion, although I abandoned the big publishers years ago. nt.

[kay1864]

44. Batman killed henchmen?

When?

(Nolan's version, not the Burton Batman)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

45. Didn't he blow up a buddhist temple full of ninjas?

:shrug:

[kay1864]

54. Blow up? No...

He set it on fire, he wasn't Batman then, and we don't know they were killed.

(admittedly I'm only 100% sure of the 2nd point, since it's been too long since I saw that movie)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

57. Oh, right. Right. Right.

:eyes:

[Orrex]

81. So, you didn't like the first one, and you knew you wouldn't like the sequel

And you went to see it anyway?

:shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

85. I liked the first one.

Where did you get the impression that I didn't?

[unpossibles]

well, I could argue that you are arguing about believability of a comic book...

the joker is more believable as played than the characters you mention. I thought Ledger did a great job portraying him, and stayed true to the comics, or at least the Frank Miller branch of the comics, which is where this movie gets a lot of its ideas.

This version of Batman, as a dark and brooding vigilante does predate the Saw, Spiderman, and X-men movies by decades. This element of hero/anti-hero is prevalent in all three books, and has been for decades. Again, if anything maybe Saw ripped off the others.

As for the gadget - he did use it when he jumped off that giant building and when he got picked up by the skyhook.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

47. If you want dark and brooding, the Scarlet Pimpernel predates Batman significantly.

But I'm not talking about the character's creation, just the cliches in this particular film.

"As for the gadget - he did use it when he jumped off that giant building and when he got picked up by the skyhook."

A HALO jump is when you jump out of a plane at very high altitudes with an oxygen mask. Nothing to do with that Hong Kong(?) sequence.

[unpossibles]

49. as someone else said, maybe that's how he got on top of the building

you obviously did not like it. Big deal. Most people did.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

51. Then why take the ballet troupe to Hong Kong?

Doesn't make any sense.

"you obviously did not like it. Big deal. Most people did."

Most people liked The Phantom Menace when it first came out. Then they started slowly realizing what a stupid movie it was.

[kay1864]

55. "Most people liked The Phantom Menace when it first came out"

You have got to be kidding. Even diehard SW fans were disappointed.

Further proof: just look the "Top Critics" rating at Rotten Tomatoes:

Phantom Menace: 39% at the time
Dark Knight: 90%

Nothing "slowly" about it.


Oh wait, I forgot:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[unpossibles]

58. he did not take the ballet troupe to Honk Kong - it was an alibi as to where Bruce Wayne was

he left them in the water. You fell asleep in the movie, didn't you?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

60. He took them out in a boat in the waters off of Hong Kong...

as an excuse to go to Hong Kong in the first place. And to get Michael Caine on a boat with some bikini girls for the sake of a single one-liner.

Does Batman need a HALO jump to get on top of all the buildings on Gotham City too?

[kay1864]

35. Agree with most of what you said...

Except for:

"Disagree - he never planned on jumping from a plane, just a really tall building and being picked up by a plane - which he did. The jumping from a plane thing struck me as an analogy, or perhaps just wanting that ability - to glide from a great height - something quite useful in his line of work.'

No, not an analogy. You don't need an oxygen mask to jump from a tall building, not even the International Finance Center in Hong Kong. The trailer's on Yahoo, where Fox opens the case with the oxygen.

My guess is there was a scene written (filmed or not) where he HALO'd into Hong Kong, and landed on the IFC. Faster than ground transport from the Hong Kong airport--not to mention how you'd quickly get to the top of the IFC.

Although you're right, they did deliver on the Skyhook scene, I remember that part now.

"no, the PG-13 rating."

Like any of the death scenes in *any* Indiana Jones film would merit an R? No, I don't buy it. And they wouldn't have to show Lao *burning* per se, just screaming with flames in the foreground. For me, by the time the Joker was done talking to the mobster with the "loyal dogs", I'd forgotten Lao was up there.

[jobycom]

20. Fess up. You didn't see it.

2) He stole from the mob to piss them off, not for the money. That was completely covered. he killed the henchman to send a message, and because they were plotting against him. Also covered.

6) You misunderstood the scene. Lucius thought Batman wanted to jump out of the plane, but Batman wanted to jump into the plane, hence the discussion. As he said, jumping out of a plane would be boring. So why show it? Same with the whole "climbing back in the plane" process. "Air Force One" beat that to death. No one wanted to see it. So they showed the parts that wouldn't just chew up celluloid and bore the audience. There was no continuity issue, only inattentive audience members.

8) PG-13. There were enough deaths, you got the idea. As with the Russian in the same scene. Most of Shakespeare's characters are killed off-stage, too.

9) Dent shouted "Nooo!" when he spilled the fuel and fell over rather than getting into position to diffuse the bomb. He also screamed when Batman showed up because he knew Batman wasn't saving Rachel, which was all he wanted. Good scene to those paying attention.

10) The Joker in the interrogation room showed a cunning mind playing those around him, as the character was shown doing all film. The belly bomb wasn't timed, it was controlled by the phone call, which the Joker placed when he had goaded the cop into trying to fight him, thus giving him the opportunity to escape. Pretty damned clear, and damn well done.

12 & 13) You will be in a very small minority with that opinion, but that's your opinion. I hated LOTR, so I can't talk. Except that LOTR was really poorly done and fit every Hollywood cliche and formula available. The Dark Knight was original and smart.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. Yuh huh.

"2) He stole from the mob to piss them off, not for the money. That was completely covered. he killed the henchman to send a message, and because they were plotting against him. Also covered."

I understood he was stealing to piss off the mob, it also rather firmly established he was killing his henchmen for their share of the loot.

"6) You misunderstood the scene. Lucius thought Batman wanted to jump out of the plane, but Batman wanted to jump into the plane, hence the discussion. As he said, jumping out of a plane would be boring. So why show it? Same with the whole "climbing back in the plane" process. "Air Force One" beat that to death. No one wanted to see it. So they showed the parts that wouldn't just chew up celluloid and bore the audience. There was no continuity issue, only inattentive audience members."

Talking about a halo jump, then not doing it, bored the audience.


"8) PG-13. There were enough deaths, you got the idea. As with the Russian in the same scene. Most of Shakespeare's characters are killed off-stage, too."

Yet they have plenty of other violent stuff, like Dent burning alive. See above.

"10) The Joker in the interrogation room showed a cunning mind playing those around him, as the character was shown doing all film. The belly bomb wasn't timed, it was controlled by the phone call, which the Joker placed when he had goaded the cop into trying to fight him, thus giving him the opportunity to escape. Pretty damned clear, and damn well done."

Cunning?

Fine, it was phoned in rather than timed. Awfully interesting timing then.


"12 & 13) You will be in a very small minority with that opinion, but that's your opinion. I hated LOTR, so I can't talk. Except that LOTR was really poorly done and fit every Hollywood cliche and formula available. The Dark Knight was original and smart."

It was neither original, nor smart, as I've demonstrated above.

[jobycom]

29. More proof. You didn't see it.

2) The henchman were plotting against the Joker from the beginning, before the first one got killed. Completely covered.

6) Showing a halo jump would have bored the audience.

8) Yes, and the cumulative total can change the rating. So they chose not to show that one. It wasn't needed, anyway, and would have bored the audience.

10) Yes, cunning, as in the Joker knew the system well enough to exploit it to get himself in jail, and get Lau out. Perhaps too cunning for some?

12 & 13) You've demonstrated you didn't watch the film, but you've demonstrated nothing about the film.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

32. The first one who got killed was the first shot of the movie.

No dialogue. No explanation, other than to take the share of the loot. You're trying to fill in the gaps.

"6) Showing a halo jump would have bored the audience."

They obviously weren't worried about boring the audience with all the other crap.

"8) Yes, and the cumulative total can change the rating. So they chose not to show that one. It wasn't needed, anyway, and would have bored the audience."

Burning a guy alive would have bored the audience... OK. Nevermind the Harvey Dent scene then.

"10) Yes, cunning, as in the Joker knew the system well enough to exploit it to get himself in jail, and get Lau out. Perhaps too cunning for some?"

Twas a very elaborate plan, for somebody who didn't do any planning. Tell me... the Joker lands in jail because Commissioner Gordon faked his own death when he jumped in front of the Joker's bullet when he tried to shoot Harvey Dent in the middle of a police funeral which happened to be held, for some reason, in the middle of sniper alley, which Harvey Dent is attending for some reason despite supposedly being in protective custody because the Joker was trying to kill him because he was prosecuting the mob bosses which the Joker wanted to get rid off... so is Commissioner Gordon one of the Joker's henchmen?

"12 & 13) You've demonstrated you didn't watch the film, but you've demonstrated nothing about the film."

You know, you don't have to like this movie. Just because you waited along time doesn't mean it's good, and you don't have to apologize for it.

[unpossibles]

48. No dialogue. No explanation, other than to take the share of the loot. You're trying to fill in the

no, the dialog was the goons telling each other that Joker told them to kill each other for the loot. Did the Joker himself ever claim that was his motivation, or have you assumed?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. In the context of the film...

we clearly see masked bad guys killing other masked bad guys for the loot. If they had some secret special reason why the Joker was killing his henchmen, they probably should have come up with one.

[jobycom]

56. Which occured AFTER the henchman discussed not sharing the money with the Joker.

You're trying to create gaps.

6) It had the top opening weekend gross of any movie, and it is currently the top rated movie ever on IMDB, with over 69,000 votes. It has been praised almost universally by critics, many of whom are already declaring it the greatest superhero movie ever, and amongst the greatest crime dramas ever. It sounds like the filmmakers were quite aware of what would and would not bore the audience.

8) They showed enough of what happened to Dent to make later scenes make sense. Lau was a minor character. They showed how he was going to die--as with the Russian--and moved on to things that did matter to the rest of the film. Some dumb-ass slasher/horror scene wouldn't have added to the film, it would have been a gratuitous interruption to the narrative. No comparison.

10) The Joker planned everything he did in great detail. What he told Dent was he didn't have a plan, meaning it wasn't all leading up to some grand conclusion. That was clear, too, and in line with the comic book Joker and previous film versions, as well as with the entire terrorist theme of The Dark Knight.

As for the rest of that, you're trying to create gaps again. The Joker had a plan that he expected would lead to his capture. That doesn't mean he expected Gordon to re-appear. The whole point of Gordon faking his death wasn't to capture the Joker, but was to keep the Joker from targeting his family.

12 & 13) I didn't have to like it. But I did, as did almost everyone who saw it. You don't have to dislike it just to maintain some pseudo-iconoclastic delusion of cool, either.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

59. Huh?

"6) It had the top opening weekend gross of any movie, and it is currently the top rated movie ever on IMDB, with over 69,000 votes. It has been praised almost universally by critics, many of whom are already declaring it the greatest superhero movie ever, and amongst the greatest crime dramas ever. It sounds like the filmmakers were quite aware of what would and would not bore the audience."

So it's right up there with Titanic, Forrest Gump, and the Tim Burton Batman.

:rofl:

"8) They showed enough of what happened to Dent to make later scenes make sense. Lau was a minor character."

You're seriously arguing they didn't show Lau's death because of the ratings? Seriously?

"Some dumb-ass slasher/horror scene wouldn't have added to the film, it would have been a gratuitous interruption to the narrative."

So then why all the dumb-ass slasher/horror scenes? Like I was saying, the Joker's bit was straight out of Saw.

"10) The Joker planned everything he did in great detail. What he told Dent was he didn't have a plan, meaning it wasn't all leading up to some grand conclusion. That was clear, too, and in line with the comic book Joker and previous film versions, as well as with the entire terrorist theme of The Dark Knight."

OK, fine. The Joker's got intricate plans. Something he'd need to be clairvoyant to figure out. Like how the "Bus Driver" was going to kill the guy who was about to shoot him.

"The whole point of Gordon faking his death wasn't to capture the Joker, but was to keep the Joker from targeting his family."

So... he fakes his own death to protect his own family... and doesn't tell his family... or do anything to protect them...

[kay1864]

61. ...

"So it's right up there with Titanic, Forrest Gump, and the Tim Burton Batman."

Actually, right up there with The Godfather, The Shawshank Redemption, and The Godfather part II.

If you'd bother to actually look at imdb.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

62. And that's supposed to be impressive?

:shrug:

[kay1864]

63. Wow. Aren't we worldly!

Disdainful of The Godfather *and* Shawshank.

:rofl:


:dunce:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

76. Those were both good movies.

Shawshank is overrated, but unlike The Dark Knight it's a solid piece of filmmaking.

And it's not on that list because a bunch of on-line fanboys voted on it before actually seeing it.

[jobycom]

66. It's supposed to prove that the audience wasn't bored, as you claimed they were.

Generally when the audience thinks a film is boring, they don't rate it higher than every other film ever made.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

77. Generally, Joby...

Audiences don't vote for movies as being "the best movie ever" on opening day.

[jobycom]

84. No one voted for it being "The Best Movie Ever," Borni.

They rated it on a scale of 1 to 10, and the average of that score was compared to other films.

Generally, 90,000 voters don't combine to rate a film 9.4 on that scale if it is boring. You claimed Nolan's choices were boring to the audience. Obviously, that's not true.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

86. It's an on-line poll.

The intellectual equivalent of a google bomb, and completely worthless.

"You claimed Nolan's choices were boring to the audience."

It bored me, and I was in the audience.

[jobycom]

87. Ah... Man I hope you don't twist and spin like this while you're driving.

"It wasn't a speed limit, officer. It was a random number painted on a piece of metal, and completely worthless. I believed I should drive faster, and I was the driver."

What you said was, the choices that Nolan made (specifically not showing the Halo jump) bored the audience. With over 90,000 votes voting almost overwhelmingly that the movie rated a 10--no other way to get a 9.4 average, considering that at least some people would have rated it lower than a 9--you can be certain without any room for argument that the movie did not bore most in the audience. None of your squirming proves anything else.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

88. I never said it bored most of the audience.

And I reject the notion that they cut the halo jump scene because it would have been boring. I mean that is just a stupid argument.

[jobycom]

65. Currently, it's up there with Godfather I & II, and Shawshank Redemption.

Proving my point and disproving yours about what the audience found boring.

8) I gave a couple of reasons they didn't need to burn Lau on film. The film worked without it.

10) Again, obviously you didn't watch the movie. What's hard about plotting to back a bus over a bad guy? You make sure he's standing in one spot, you make sure the bus driver backs into him. A lot less complicated than any of the conspiracy theories folks around here believe about JKF, RFK, 9-11, and Iraq.

The part about Gordon was explained completely in the film. Didn't you get the memo?

[DS1]

33. fully agree on 6

the image of the plane flying away while the ramp slowly seals, as seen from the building where anyone would be left gaping, was a much better thing to show than batman wrestling the guy aboard the plane as seen from inside the plane

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

38. Ultimate sloppy example: Cops leave Joker's makeup on!

They're saying "We did DNA and fingerprins, but we can't figure out who he iS!"

someone should have asked:

"Why didn't you wipe that crap off his face? Might be a good start."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

43. Well, if they took his makeup off, they wouldn't know who he is.

That's why he was able to impersonate a cop, and sit through a police funeral, in order to assasinate Dent. Unrecognized, despite all the scars all over his face.

[crimsonblue]

68. hmm

it's good to know that you're in the idiotic 3% of people that didn't like the film. you're probably a "film student", so being a pretentious douche is your job, i suppose.

[kay1864]

69. Heh. He doesn't even rate "pretentious douche"

To wit:

"Nicholson and Romero were better Jokers."
"Most people liked Episode 1"
"Godfather and Shawshank aren't impressive company"

Not sure what the best term is at this point. "Cranky curmudgeon" perhaps? "Proud member of the divorced-from-reality-based community"? "Desperately clinging to my posts"? Can't decide.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

75. Well, I am a student of film.

I know good movies and bad movies. And I'm not about to rave about an over-hyped movie just because John Tesh and Mary Hart have been talking about it the last six months.

[Orrex]

80. What was the last good action film you saw in a mainstream, first-run theater, by the way?

You've made several points that, while not new, do represent a not uncommon style of response to superhero films. It would be interesting to hear what a student of film considers a good action film to be.

[Orrex]

79. Yeah, but you don't like anything

:rofl:

[NashVegas]

4. #9

Dent shouted "nooo" because he saw Batman and knew if he was being rescued, then Rachel wasn't.

#12. I don't buy the "Joker killed Heath" arguments. It's all just rationalizing to me. Talk on the set is that he was the opposite of Daniel Day Lewis; he'd be totally down to earth between takes and chatty, and go be "on" when the cameras were running.

[kay1864]

6. You sure about that?

IIRC Batman arrived a couple scenes later. You might be right though.

[NashVegas]

7. What I Got Out of That Scene

Was that Dent intentionally knocked the barrel over and was trying to kill himself in an effort to keep Joker from killing Rachel.

YMMV.

[Pale Blue Dot]

10. I assumed he was simply trying to escape

and accidentally knocked over the barrel.

[jobycom]

21. I remember it as Dent being upset Batman arrived.

The scene with the spilled barrel was also about Rachel. He was trying to diffuse the bomb or find some way to escape to save her. When he knocked over the barrel and fell on the ground, he couldn't do anything else. It was clear that his anguish was over Rachel, and not being able to save her, I thought.

[NashVegas]

30. Yeah

I thought it looked like he was trying to lick/drink up the gas and poison himself.

[JTG of the PRB]

64. I saw that scene like that as well.

From what I could tell, Harvey Dent was upset because he saw Batman coming in to save him, instead of going to save Rachel. Since Harvey Dent knew that only one of them would survive, he wanted it to be Rachel and not himself. He knew Batman would be able to save one and not the other, and he was dismayed when he saw Batman walk in that door to save HIM, and NOT Rachel.

[backscatter712]

8. Yeah, some scenes were chopped that shouldn't have been...

6. Quibble #2: After all the setup of Batman doing a jump from an airplane (even showing us the oxygen mask)...we didn't see said jump. Or the landing on the airplane in-flight. Either show the whole scene, or cut it entirely--what's the point of showing us only the setup?

Yeah, that's a legitimate gripe. I also noted that after the big SWAT van chase where Batman gets his Batmobile trashed, resumes the chase on the Bat-Pod, flips that truck, and so on, saving Harvey Dent, having Batman saved by Gordon, capturing the Joker, all of the sudden Dent and Rachel were both kidnapped, but they never showed the scenes where they were actually kidnapped. It just moved suddenly from the Joker in captivity at the Gotham PD to Dent and Rachel tied up among all those barrels of diesel fuel (I'm presuming it's diesel fuel on account of the Joker's enthusiasm for fertilizer bombs...)

The movie was rather long, and I suspect that it would have been longer if scenes like that were included, but Nolan & co. were given a hard upper limit on the running time, and made some cuts that maybe they shouldn't have made.

Aside from these editing gripes, it was a truly great movie. Heath Ledger was terrifying as the Joker. That's my Joker - insane, violent psychopath, not merry prankster.

[Broken_Hero]

12. ..........

"That's my Joker - insane, violent psychopath, not merry prankster."

I totally agree, :thumbsup:

[unpossibles]

13. it showed Dent getting into a police car driven by the cop he later confronted in the bar

as they were leaving the scene.

I thought the movie was brilliant.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

19. Yup, that's the scene.

The cop who we're supposed to hate because she's one of the Joker's henchmen, and complicity with murder, but then we're supposed to feel sorry for her because she too has a sick mother, and therefore Harvey Dent's a bad guy for killing her.

Did they show Rachel getting kidnapped? I can't remember.

[unpossibles]

37. no. And if I recall, the cop who took dent was the older guy

I think they switched the sympathies (cops' parents in hospital) because at this point, Dent was a villain.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. I'm talking about the young hispanic female cop.

Was that Dent's or Rachel's kidnapper.

" I think they switched the sympathies (cops' parents in hospital) because at this point, Dent was a villain. "

Exactly my point. It was very contrived.

[Reterr]

82. Wow- hardcore dude

:rofl: :rofl:

[jobycom]

23. I liked that, and didn't see it as inconsistency.

Movies spend too much time showing meaningless setups that the audience can figure out, and treating the rest of the movie as a schematic drawing to get to the explosions and plane jumps. We know what a kidnapping looks like, why show it? They were kidnapped--we saw the results of that, which was the important part. Wish more movies would cut down on the obvious to get to more originality. Are you listening, Peter Jackson?

[Fran Kubelik]

11. I couldn't get past the fact that...

...The Joker talked just like Stuart Smalley/Al Franken.

[Sheets of Easter]

15. Or the fact that Bruce Wayne as Batman,

sounded like the unholy union of Henry Rollins and Harvey Firestein.

[DS1]

25. yeah, that was over the top

but supposedly to help hide his identity

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

42. The Bat-voice sounds like he channeling Jack Palance or something

And Nicholson already did that in '89

"You are my number one guy!"

[Sheets of Easter]

16. The one thing that cracked me up,

was the fact that the Joker had a Harvey Dent campaign sticker on his nurse's uniform. :D

[colinmom71]

71. Yes! I laughed like mad when I noticed that!

That was just the perfect unexpected humorous touch to an otherwise tense and horrifying scene...

[Initech]

18. My favorite part about Dark Knight

Was that every time the Joker explained how he got his scars he had a different story.

"You know why I use a knife? Guns are too fast!"

[jobycom]

46. Random response.

Great film! I barely noticed it was an action film--I tend to glaze over during chase or fight scenes, anyway. But it was a dark exploration of the human soul, from its worst to its best, with questions about terrorism, torture, vigilantism, spying, and violations of rights. Few answers, just good questions.

The "here's my card" scene had two changed lines. The other was "Kill the Batman." He says both lines softer in the movie than in the trailer, I think because it fit the scene better. The Joker leaves the room without winning their support, so the more confident line would have seemed out of place. The people putting together the trailer used the more exciting different clip.

[kay1864]

52. I thought so...

I loved the "Kill the Batman" line (trailer version) because Ledger does this little sideways look at the end that strikes me as really spooky. In the theatrical version I can't even remember if the camera was on his face, or if it was a back shot.

I think the confident version of "Here's my card" would have worked better, because (a) the Joker *is* supremely confident, convinced of his own superiority and (b) he was wired with grenades, so he could afford to be flippant.

For both lines, the trailer version wasn't IMHO more exciting, just a better rendering.

But I'll have to see it again just to be sure. <---rationalization

[crimsonblue]

67. my thoughts

I went to this movie on Saturday night with my parents (went home for the weekend to play in a golf tourney with my pop).

1. Heath Ledger -- single best villain that will ever be in a film. period.

2. maybe it was too long -- most action films have multiple plots written into the script, and then the film is focus-grouped down into its final state. It seems that they did not want to waste a single scene of Ledger's, and so the film kept going on, with more devious actions advancing the plot. It probably didn't help that there was an illuminated clock by the exit in the theater.

3. the action was the best I've seen, maybe ever. I caught some of Batman Begins on FX today, and it looked shitty and amateur in comparison. There was no hokiness, and very little comedy in this film, although the audience at the theater laughed at some of Ledger's scenes, maybe to try and add some redeemability to an otherwise horrid character.

4. Back to Ledger -- it was stated that Ledger's portrayal of the Joker was to make sure that he has absolutely no redeeming qualities. He succeeds masterfully. The nihilism of the Joker takes Gardner's Grendel and blows it out of the water; philosophy scholars will be using this film as the quintessential nihilistic film of all time. So many times in movies, a character in makeup looks fake.. but Ledger wore his paint perfectly. He truly is/was the king of method acting.

5. If Ledger doesn't get the Oscar (screw supporting actor, give him the goddam Lead Actor AND lifetime achievement), then the Academy Awards will no longer have any validity.

6. WTF is up with the Michael Keaton-esque voice by Bale during the costumed scenes? He sounds like a freaking idiot.

7. The Nolans could cut every scene that doesn't have Ledger, and I'd still pay money to see this. Wow, I cannot go on enough about Ledger's acting. A truly sadistic, morally void, nihilistic, anarchist crazy mother fucker, n o one will ever play a villain half as good as Ledger did. I'm serious.

8. If you haven't seen this movie: a) WTF are you reading this for? and b) get off the damn computer and go see the movie!!!

This movie is in my top 3 movies (with Casino Royale, and Harold and Kumar go to White Castle)

[grantcart]

70. I agree with you

there are some holes like the airplane jump and burning the pile of money without really explaining why or showing Lau burning but

Ledger was mesmerizing.

He made the villan a much more 3 dimensional guy. Little things like the affectation of smacking his lips with his tongue was fascinating but not over done - And with all of the make up on his eyes became unbelievable expressive.

[DS1]

74. Disappearing pencil trick

[av8rdave]

72. It was OK, I guess....but it was way too long

Somebody left too much film in the camera.

[colinmom71]

73. #7 - Actually, I thought Alfred seemed wistfully sad and regretful...

When he related the line about burning down the forest. It was a reminder to Batman/Bruce Wayne that their single minded pursuit of the bad guy led them to destroy completely the thing they were trying to protect - the forest region. For Batman, it was a reminder to not destroy everything in order to defeat one man...

[DS1]

78. ___

[Reterr]

83. I liked Ledger's performance and the movie was decent

It was a little long though. I didn't see all the moral complexity that other people saw, but it was decently entertaining for a movie I had no particular desire to see (dragged to it by my boyfriend-territory that comes with dating a comic book geek/freak).

I thought the cast was great, but I honestly don't get why they cast so many outstanding actors in roles that are basically not that challenging. I just don't get why they need Oldman, Keaton, Freeman etc. for the relatively small/cliche roles they play. I admit too that I prefer to not see so many big names in one movie unless strictly necessary. It is just a personal preference but I get distracted in movies with too many stars. And they could use a well written female character. I was disappointed that Maggie was as flat as Katie Holmes. Can't blame the actresses-their parts seemed to just not be as well-written as the rest.

Overall I liked the movie though and Ledger definitely makes it worth it.