question to people who prefer the same sex

[Kamika]

I'm just curious..

Is it wrong to refer to one of you as a "ho*o" (sorry if it is)



(Disclaimer : I have nothing against people who prefers the same sex, any kind of minorities, majority, or anyone to be honest, except mean ppl)

[Deja Q]

1. Hobo? Horo? Howo? Boyo? :-)

Sorry, that was lame. I know you meant "homo".

I've no problem with "homo". It's scientific slang for a scientific term.

And it beats the snot out of some of the things I've read, heard, and seen. :D

Even playing unreal over the 'net, I've met more than a fair share of bigots saying that certain weapons are for "f*****s" despite using those certain weapons themselves... x(

[Cuban_Liberal]

2. No problem for me.

:)

[Blue-Jay]

I'd prefer the same sex that I had about a week ago.

We're probably not talking about the same thing, though.

:evilgrin:

On topic: Not many of the gay friends I have like being called a "homo".

[foreigncorrespondent]

3. It depends on the context it is used in.

In the instance you are referring to, it was an insult.

You need to express your question in a more appropriate way, which suits the way in which you used the word.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

4. i love

dyke; lesbo; homo; queer etc...it depends on how you use them

[bobbieinok]

7. 'man milliner' in Regency England

...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

8. huh?

please explain...poor confused dyke here

[Lost in GA]

13. A Desi Dyke?

Can't be! Did you see the part in 'Bend it Like B" where the girl says..you can't be gay!. we nearly died laughing.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

17. yup i am from india

actually spent first 18 years of my life there

[Lost in GA]

32. Hi, there!

So are we...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

34. cool!

where in india?

[Lost in GA]

38. North

We're both from Delhi, though my family is originally from W. Punjab (now Pakistan, peace be with them) and my wife's Kashmiri. How about you? Also, if you are indeed lesbian, was it harder for you to live there or here, and how? Our closest friend since childhood is bisexual, and was always the queen bee of our social circle. But that was just one person...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

126. i am indeed lesbian

well actually i am pansexual but have been with the same woman for 2 years so for all intents and purposes i am a dyke...i'm from bengal...coming out has been interesting though i am not out completely etc.

[Dookus]

5. No....

we love it when homophobes call us that.

Personally, I prefer pillowbiting cocksucking nancy boy, but that's just me.

[Kamika]

6. hmm

was that an insult or something

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[foreigncorrespondent]

16. That certainly isn' called for. (n/t)

[Lost in GA]

33. You're right.

My apologies. My better half warned me that it was over the top. Should have listened.

[Cuban_Liberal]

9. How about 'carpet muncher'?

I could yell that while doing this to you! :P

[La Lioness Priyanka]

18. again i say that about myself

its all about context

[Padraig18]

24. Depending on the context...

.., you can call me almost anything without making me angry, kamika. it's all about context, love. :hi:

[LincolnMcGrath]

60. pillowbiting

pillowbiting? I have seen it here on DU. UH UMM I don't get the reference? :shrug:

[Dookus]

61. heheh

well...

imagine a position in which your face is buried in the pillows... while... um... other things happen elsewhere.

[LincolnMcGrath]

62. DOH

NUF SAID thanks

[tedoll78]

10. I don't really care.

It's the tone behind the word usage more than the word itself. I call myself and my partner homos all the time.

[pagerbear]

12. Same as what?

[Blue-Jay]

14. Position?

Although I suppose that would get boring after a while.

/not a sex-thread.

[adamblast]

22. As others have said, it depends very much...

on the context its used in.

To give it a vague racial equivalance, I'd say it's closest to saying "colored folk" or "darkie"...

If being used by an *outsider*, it generally shows they don't know us very well, and probably don't care to...

When some straight person is saying they don't much support rights for homos, yes, it's an insult.

[donco6]

19. Depends

If *you* said it, I would know you meant it in lighthearted jest.

If Fred Phelps says it, I would know it was a snarled epithet.

Kinda depends on the context.

[Kamika]

20. ok thanks

I appreciate that, your post meant alot :D

:hug:

[Rowdyboy]

21. Exactly!

Who you say it to, and in what context makes all the difference.

[Dookus]

23. Why on earth would you presume she used it in a lighthearted jest?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

25. cos

at the very least shes trying not to offend...she says so in her posting...fred phelps could care less who he offended

[Dookus]

26. ah, ok... as long as it's prefaced that way

this person has a very long history of posting insensitive, if not outright homophobic, comments about gay people and the issues facing them.

I, for one, don't find any reason to give her the benefit of the doubt.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

28. sorry did not realize that

i think i assume non homophobic atleast on this board unless proved otherwise...thats why i would assume she was not homophobic

[Kamika]

31. heh

Well you can either take my word for it that I'm not or listen to some disgruntled poster ..

[Dookus]

37. better than taking either person's word...

let's look at the record

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=634217#634338

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=632311#632383

And then the post that started this discussion:
-------------
Kamika (1000+ posts) Tue Feb-24-04 06:25 AM
Response to Original message

20. I'd prefer to wait with the homo debate

Alot of my liberal friends do have problems with gay marriage,
it might not swing them BUT it WILL swing others.
--------------

btw... while searching for these, I notice you post in a LOT of gay threads... more than *I* do. Just take a walk on the wild side and get it out of your system.

[Kamika]

41. lol yes look at my terrible record

where I am angry because gays are exploited as stereotypes.. damn how homophobic of me.

man I could never believe homosexuals would be angry when I got angry at ppl acting like stereotypes

[foreigncorrespondent]

43. How can anyone look at your record...

...when you tend to edit and edit your posts because you get brought down for the words you are using? I can show one thread in particular where you are called out for "editing" your words.

[Kamika]

44. heh

You have no clue what I edited so go ahead

[foreigncorrespondent]

47. Kamika...

...why do you do this?

I don't have to prove anything. It is all there in the thread. And quite a few people called you out for the words you were using. And then, what did you do, go back and edit out those words, but alas, you don't control everyones posts, so you can't edit it all.

[Kamika]

51. ok

find what I had written beore I edited it

I only remember someone didn't get what I meant so I changed the post and kept the same meaning, ofcourse you spun it out of control

[foreigncorrespondent]

57. Excuse me, Kamika...

...but when you have more than one person coming at you trying hard to explain to you why your words are so hurtful, then you cannot blame me (just one person) for things getting out of control. Go back and try to again to insult me. Sheesh!

[Kamika]

63. err

I havent tried to insult you, sorry

[foreigncorrespondent]

68. If you didn't try and insult me...

..by accusing me of making threads turn into flames, then why say sorry?

[Kamika]

72. I never said you do that

I said you spin things I say so they are negative, when I don't mean it negative.


And I say sorry because I know you want me to be really homophobic and everything and since I'm not I guess I should apologize since I don't live up

[foreigncorrespondent]

77. What are you saying Kamika?

I certainly would prefer no one was homophobic, ya know why? It is because of homophobia that Sapphocrat and I are FORCED to live 8,000 miles apart.

What the hell do you think is more important to me, wishing someone was homophobic or being with the woman I love?

As for what you say you never said:

"I only remember someone didn't get what I meant so I changed the post and kept the same meaning, ofcourse you spun it out of control"

The last bit, which I bolded, that is accusing me of turning threads into flames.

[Kamika]

78. no

with that I mean when I say something, you twist it around so you're making it look like I meant something really negative.

And it fucking hurts to get a rumor o being homophobic when I'm not. I'm sure you're just happy about it but it fucking hurts.. hope I made your day

[foreigncorrespondent]

85. If you don't understand this, Kamika, then I cannot help you.

I do NOT twist your words around to suit any sort of hidden agenda about showing you up to be a homophobic. I try to make you understand why your words cut to the very core of my being. As does Allen, Dookus, Sapphocrat, and many others have tried to do in the past.

I realize it fucking hurts, Karmika. Your fucking words hurt too, ya know? "Homo debate" is cruel and it cuts. You do realize that these asshole government idiots are playing politics with the lives of thousands of human beings don't you?

[Kamika]

86. I'm sure it hurts

But just why take it out on me?

Have I ever done anything wrong against you? every discriminated you? called you anything?

[foreigncorrespondent]

91. I give up!

You are never going to understand Kamika, that when you insult a community you insult every person with in that community. So to answer your question, yes you have, Kamika on all accounts.

[Kamika]

92. ok

Except the gay ppl pm'ing me saying they agree with me.

Ok see this is what I don't get.

Here you have me, a liberal, I keep insistign I'm not a homophobe, I have never insulted anyone, I'm pro gay rights etc etc.

I even admit I don't know what words are bad and which words aren't so I will probably use wrong words some time.

Anyway

Instead of actually being neutral, or even a friend, you insist on having me as an enemy.

I just don't get it.

I write a big post saying how I'm upset how gay ppl are exploited in series like fab5 and instead of having ppl agreeing with me I get flamed as a homophobe

[foreigncorrespondent]

96. Well Kamika...

...How about you tell these people what you said and in the tone you used it, and see if they still say they agree with you.

[Kamika]

97. they know

Anyway I'm going to bed again, keep on hating me if you wish, but atleast stop insulting me and saying I'm a homophobe, which I consider an insult

[foreigncorrespondent]

105. I suggest you learn the meaning of victim...

...maybe that way, you will stop trying to portray yourself as one.

[Dookus]

99. because they're not being exploited

you kept saying they were "acting like a stereotype".

They weren't ACTING. That's who they are.

You kept insisting gay people SHOULDN'T "act" that way.

They're NOT ACTING! THAT'S WHO THEY ARE!!

And why should ANY gay person change ANYTHING in order to appease homophobes?

You just don't know when to quit.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dookus]

104. and... as we pointed out a hundred times

you are wrong. They are not "appeasing" homophobes. They are being who they are. You are mistaken if you think if you think they're "acting" that way for somebody else's sake.

[Djinn]

116. Having read this and the other two threads

I'm going to go out on a limb (and risk getting flamed) and say that I really don't think Kamika means any offense, and while I disagree with her I think I get what she was aiming at with the whole Queer Eye Stereotype good/bad thing.

That said it is actually possible to be homophobic while not realising it, how many straight progressives would feel a "bit weird" at seeing a couple of guys holding hands or having a pash at a highschool - see it all the time with hetero couples - the assumptions people hold (even if they're well meaning) can be harmful too, ie the assumption that Carson is "acting" up to a "steretype" (btw never watch the show can't stand makeovers, way to shallow for me so I kinda don't know hat I'm on about here) and that gay people are responsible for changing the attitudes of bigots.

The Jewish stereotype is of a studious and thrifty person, does that mean a jewish person who actually does have those traits is somehow capitulating to the Nazi's?

The stereotype of women is that we love shopping and make-up, if a woman does like shopping is she pandering to the misogynists?

My advice Kamika is to really think about what you say on this issue, maybe try substituting the words "gay" for "female" and it might give you an idea why people get so upset at you, I don't think you're homophobic in a "they shuold be locked up" way, but there are subtler forms.

Edit: And you really don't need to ask if homo, fag, poof, pillow biter etc etc are insulting - why would you ever be in a position where you'd have to use any of them, if you need a collective word to describe homosexuals try "PEOPLE" it works for all of us and it's never offensive, the instances where you NEED to classify someone by their sexual preference are pretty rare in general conversation:
ie "all people should have the same constitutional protection" see no need to mention anyone's sexuality, it's an equality thing not a gay thing.

[foreigncorrespondent]

118. Djinn...

...the fact is, using the word homo in the way, Kamika chose to use it today was northing more than an insult to the queer community. In fact, I was one of the people who did alert on that post the moment I saw it, when I first logged on this morning (Melbourne time.)

Kamika isn't biased, she doesn't just stick to gay threads to be insulting, she does it in a lot of other threads. And if you look at what jchilds posted (#20 http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=799177&mesg_id=799288) you will see what I mean. And there has been numerous other insults she has let fly as well.

The thing is mate, there are several of us queers and queer supporters who have tried for months and months to try and show Kamika why her words hurt so much, but to no avail. She will post something very insulting, and then simply edit and re-edit her posts to suit herself. All the while not retracting what she has said to hurt us in the first place. I for one didn't hear an apology from her from her homo debate remark (which BTW was used when referring to the gay marriage debate)from this morning.

I understand you wanting to give her the benefit of the doubt mate, but before you make your mind up I do suggest you take a look over her past posts.

I have first hand experience with Kamika's insults, and I realize that this has gone far beyond simple ignornance of the queer community.

[Djinn]

120. See Below

Hey foreigncorrespondent :hi:

Yep - I read a bit more and realised this whole post emerged after a warning for using the word that she now asks "is it offensive" - clearly it is. Also having read more there does seem to be a certain stubborness that I would suspect was flamebait were it not against the rules to accuse someone of that.

Not really much point asking "is XYZ offensive" if when told by many that it is you keep on insisting that it's fine and that you'd "have no problems with it" if you were gay yourself.

I don't find the insulting names some English people have for Scots (particularly those with strong choocter pedigree's like mine) BUT they are unneccesary.

If it MAY hurt someone's feelings or someone MAY be able misinterpret your intentions why not just use another term, particularly since in this argument "homo debate" isn't really very enlightening "civil marriage issue/debate" or "constitutional equality issue/debate" or even gay debate would have obvioulsy NOT been offensive, why did you not go for them?

[foreigncorrespondent]

40. Kamika...

...you KNOW and I KNOW, that you were wrong with the context at which you used this particular slang towards my community.

You posted a question which was completely out of context as to why your post in another thread was removed. If you ask this question again, but ask it in a way that says, "hey is it ok to use homophobic tones in a slanderous way (because Kamika, that is exactly what you did when you used the word), then you know you will get a completely different response from the queers here on DU.

[Blue-Jay]

27. I'm not trying to offend any of you kikes,

but do you mind being referred to as "Kike"? /satire

Not offense, Kamika. You're a good girl, and trying to get a question answered honestly. Coming from a straight guy, let me just say that using the word "homo" isn't usually received well in the GLBT community, whether on a MB or in real life. The only time I've used it is when I'm intentionally trying to sound like an ignoramus while making a joke.

With personal relationships, try to find out what people (ppl) prefer to be called, and honor that. (Even when you're referring to them in a conversation with someone else.)

Hope that made sense. I've learned a lot since I was your age about diplomacy and common curtesy. (I'm an ancient 37, BTW)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

29. cultures differ

many people in the gay culture embrace being called a homo amongst their own and their supporters. (ingroup honorifics). I am ok with it as our most of my friends. its also generational (older homosexuals do not like to be called queer for instance). my pt. was the words can be used to insult or embrace. depends on person and situation

[Blue-Jay]

35. Point taken.

Maybe I'm just splitting hairs. I feel comfortable saying "queer" around my queer friends, but couldn't spit out "homo" unless I was trying to intentionally sound like a rube. Maybe it's just me. The word "queer" has been reclaimed by most ..well..queers.

From now on, I'm going to call all of you "Circus Peanuts". (no, I have no idea what that meant) :D

[La Lioness Priyanka]

36. thanks

i rather like making points :)

[donco6]

39. Because I know her.

I've seen her around the board enough to know she wouldn't say something like that in a mean spirited way.

[Kamika]

42. hey

Thanks alot :)

[Dookus]

45. And I've seen her around on the board enough

to know she does such things with alarming frequency.

I never attributed it to mean-spiritedness, though.

[Kamika]

46. geez

Find me a post I ever did that was homophobic.. and not taken totally out of context.

Btw what did I ever do to make you dislike me like this?

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kamika]

49. no

You only bother to report me etc when I comment on that grats, I bet you feel great

[Dookus]

52. I have never alerted on you

You're not worth the effort. I argue here so OTHER people, who may be educable, can see what's wrong with the things you say.

[Kamika]

53. ok

Grats on just harassing the shit out of me, spreading lies, and insulting me.

[Dookus]

55. Harassing you?

how? By contributing to your threads? That's not harassment.

Spreading lies? Never done so. No need to. Your record stands on its own.

Insulting you? I haven't begun.

[Kamika]

59. yes you are

You only talk to me in threads regarding homosexuality because you like to call me a homophobe and you know i get worked up so you can alert mods when I say some incorrect term.

You call me a homophobe which to me is an insult

[Dookus]

64. I repeat

I have never alerted on you. I WANT your posts to stay, so people can see them.


And I believe I am correct in saying that people who claim to like gay people as long as they don't act gay, who has said outright that they're uninterested in gay issues, and uses the word "homo" when referring to gay people is a homophobe.

[Kamika]

65. sorry

"And I believe I am correct in saying that people who claim to like gay people as long as they don't act gay"


I never said that.


Nice try.


I have however said that when gay ppl are on tv they shouldn't have to act like stereotypes just because straight ppl wants it.

[Dookus]

70. Anybody

who reads this whole thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=634217#634338


Can see exactly where you stand.

[foreigncorrespondent]

67. Kamika...

...did it ever occur to you that Dook will post in gay threads because he is gay? And then, did it ever occur to you, that you might not hang in the same threads as Dook, or you don't say something that interests him in other threads?

He isn't harrassing you, insulting you, alerting on you (Dook isn't the one the alerted on you in the thread in GD), he like many of us are trying to help you to understand exactly why your words cut deep with us. There is a big difference between teaching tolerance and understanding, to harrassing.

[Kamika]

71. lol ok

so why is it like only same 3 or 4 ppl all the time? while I get pms by others that they agree?

I can't help it when you are hell bent on spinning everything I say as negative.

And yes it is harrassment because EVERYONE knew I didnt mean anything bad by writing homo, just you guys that hates me that had to make a big deal out of it

[Dookus]

74. sorry

but you're unlikely to get a lot of sympathy for your persecution complex from a group of "homos".

[Kamika]

76. ok

so why are you using the term as derogatory?

You're claiming I used it as derogatory when I didn't which is slander.

You've called me a homophobe in this thread.

and now you're insinuating I used it as slander.

[foreigncorrespondent]

82. Prove that I hate you.

I don't have a problem with someone using the word "homo" so long as it is used in the right context. But when referring to the gay marriage debate, using the term "homo debate" is something that is truly insulting to the gay community. How dare you, Kamika.

Then you got alerted on for it. Then start another thread, that didn't even cover the way you used the word in the first place. If you want justification for words you use, then when you start a thread after getting a mod warning, how about directing the question you asked in the thread to be in the same tone you used when making you the remark in the first place?

I got a mod warning a few days ago for saying someone was using stealth bigotry. Should I have not accepted the warning and appealed it saying I didn't actually call the person a bigot and therefore this alert is out of context? Then to justify my words, started another thread, but changed it around to suit my own needs? The answer Kamika is NO!

[Kamika]

83. It's easy as hell

You continue to insist how bad I am and what a homophobe I am when I'm not.


and just why am I not surprised you were warned about accusing someone of stealth bigotry? lol

[foreigncorrespondent]

89. That's right Kamika...

...show your age.

I have NOT called you a homophobe!

Oh and thanks for the insult! Keep cutting why don't you, I think I have one little spot left which doesn't have a scar on it from someone being nasty.

[Scottie72]

84. this is how this started?

I didn't see that post. If this is the way it started and where the original question came from. It is very insulting to the GLBT community. I am at a loss for words.

[Dookus]

87. Yes

that is how it started.

Kamika (1000+ posts) Tue Feb-24-04 06:25 AM
Response to Original message

20. I'd prefer to wait with the homo debate

Alot of my liberal friends do have problems with gay marriage,
it might not swing them BUT it WILL swing others.

[Kamika]

90. No

It was started in a thread where someone asked if the gay marriage debate should be postphoned.

I wrote "homo debate" and didn't mean anything bad about it and all hell blew up.

If it was wrong I know it now, but i fucking don't deserve the shit some ppl are tossing at me

[Dookus]

95. and if it was the first time

you'd done anything insensitve, it would've passed unnoticed.

But you do it a lot. You say incredibly homophobic things, then act like a victim when people call you on it.

Well I, for one, don't give a shit if you feel victimized because of your own ignorant actions. Suck it up or learn how to treat gay people with a modicum of respect. But don't expect to get away unscathed while spewing your ignorance all over DU.

[Kamika]

101. ok

say something really homophobic I've said.. a quote nothing out of your ass.

And if it's out of context link to the whole thread

[oxymoron]

100. Interesting statement.

I was trying like hell to stay out of this thread because I didn't want to post while pissed off, but...

"I wrote "homo debate" and didn't mean anything bad about it and all hell blew up."

If all hell blew up the last time you used this epithet in a post, why the fuck do you need to ask if it is offensive now? And why didn't you just spell it out? It seems to me that you knew the answer to your question before you even asked it.

In the past I have attributed some of your comments to sheer ignorance. I don't think I can do that any longer.

edit for punctuation

[Kamika]

102. I'll tell you why I needed to ask

Because whenever I post anything I have the same three ppl after me reporting everything I say in hope of getting me warnings. So I wanted to ask the rest i they found it to be insulting. OR if it was just the clique who wanted me gone

[Dookus]

106. can you tell us

how you know who's alerting on you?


That information isn't given out when you get a warning.

[oxymoron]

107. Believe it or not, I am not part of any anti-Kamika conspiracy.

And I responded to your previous insensitive posts with my honest reaction as a gay man. And yes, I'll cop to it...I alerted on your ass. I was offended. I'm sorry, the last place I expected to be called a "homo" was on a progressive board.

[Djinn]

117. facetious

after defending you in an earlier opst - gotta say it's getting harder (didn't realise the original question came out of a mod warning for use of said term in another thread)

How about just using "scientific" terms or use the GLBT acronym it's easy enough and you'll be able to discuss without folks assuming that you're deliberatly flaming.

And anyway you already knew the answer to your question - if someone alerted on you and the mods shut you down then clearly it IS offensive to someone

[La Lioness Priyanka]

127. homo debate

who the hell says that anyway?

[foreigncorrespondent]

93. Yes, Scottie...

...it started because Kamika decided to use the the word homo in a very derogatory way. And then as usual, she insists she did nothing wrong, instead of just admitting that her words do cut and moves on.

[Kamika]

98. derogatory

in just what way?

anyway keep on hating me if it makes ya feel better.

[foreigncorrespondent]

109. Quite simple really.

It is like the words "fag" and "dyke". These words have been used AGAINST us forever.

With in the queer community, we can use it, but straight people can't. It is just like in the black community, they call one another the "n" word, but white people shouldn't be using it.

If you ever have any doubt about a word, then don't use it.

The only words you can ever be sure of using without facing backlash is "lesbian" and "gay". Beyond that, why would you _want_ to risk upsetting someone -- especially after you've already been told _your_ usage of "homo" may be offensive?

[Dookus]

54. ROFL

you just edited your post after I replied to it!

Now you ask a different question.

Didn't you JUST deny doing that? You're a piece of work.

[Kamika]

56. no

I edited it the same minute which means I edited it same time you posted your answer.

Which means I never saw your answer before I edited it.

[Dookus]

58. then please tell me

exactly how long can pass before it's not an edit

[Mrs. Venation]

108. A Search On The DU Lounge Archives

Here ya go, Kamika. January 11, 2004:


"As a straight female I like the show, if they all would have behaved like the fashion guy I wouldnt have liked it, but now he's the ONLY one who's behaving like a stereotype. The other guys don't behave like stereotypes and I think that's a good call."

and here:

"What I'm trying to say here is that I'm happy that the other guys aren't behaving like stereotypical gays I haven't said they should try to behave like straight people I'm just saying they shouldn't live up to the stereotype ppl has abut gays.

"if you don't like that .. well not my prob."

and here:

"I'm saying the show is good because the GAYS behaves like HUMANS, like ANYONE, and not like some ricki lake stereotype.

and here:

"I honestly think homosexuals would have it alot better if some of you would stop behaving like straight people wants you to behave."

and here:

"All I ever said was that it's good that there's a show where gays are behaving like humans instead of stereotypes.

and here:

"Thats why I'm happy theres a show where there are gay ppl who can act like normal people instead of trying to be a gay stereotype likegay ppl in ricki lake etc.."

These snippets are all copied/posted from one thread on that date.

My direct response to you was here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=634217#634901

Maybe you should read it again.

[Dookus]

111. kpharmer

your response was so good, it deserves to be repeated here:

Anyway most of the ppl angry now are ppl who's been angry at me for a long time I guess and just desperatly are trying to find stuff on me.

No, Kamika, this is the first time I've subjected myself to your homo-hating drivel. When you can say stuff like this, "Thats why I'm happy theres a show where there are gay ppl who can act like normal people" you are displaying your bigotry for all the world to see, or at least all of DU.

The fact is that "gay ppl" are normal people, and for you to make the statement you did just nauseates the crap out of me. You have a lot to learn about humanity and the role of its diversity. You also have a lot to learn about your blindness to your own bigotry, and to try to find a way to work through it. You aren't the first person, nor will you be the last, who thinks you are not a bigot when you are, in fact, a pretty blatant one.

I've lived with this crap all of my adult life. I'm 51 years old, a lesbian who's been out for almost 30 years, and a native of southern Appalachia. People listen to my accent and make assumptions about my level of intelligence, my level of sophistication, my familial relationships, and all manner of things. Usually their assumptions are ugly; they are bigoted and they are just wrong. Their assumptions, based on stereotypes, irritate the bloody hell out of me and I'll call them on their bigotry every time its ugly head arises.

It's the same with being gay. I'm going to expose the hateful ugly bigotry every time I have a chance to do so. If you can't see that the things you have said in this post are inflammatory, archaic and flat out sickening, you need to look deeply within yourself and find the cause of the ugliness. It won't go away on its own.

Mrs. Bertha Venation

[foreigncorrespondent]

50. Your not the only one Dook.

A lot of us have seen it a lot.

[MidwestMomma]

30. It's always better to refer to people by their name

Treat people as individuals...trying to group people together and classify them is what causes half the problems in this world. IMHO

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

66. I have to echo another person

who asked why you don't just call people by their names?

I don't call any of my straight friends "Straighty" or "heterogirl" or "opposo" or "breeder" or anything like that.

I don't call my black friends derogatory names.

I don't call my white friends "cracker" or "whitey", etc.

I call them Rachel, Angie, Michael, Tony, Kim, Steve, Patsy, Gerald, Judy, Enrique, Haley, Anita......

[LincolnMcGrath]

69. Good answer

Except I call my youngest Cracker cuz he was born in Orange Co. Fl. :wow:

[Dookus]

73. because she wasn't using it as a pronoun...

when referring to a community as large as the gay community, it would be difficult to use everyone's first name.

In a discussion of gay marriage, she referred to "the homo debate".

[Kamika]

75. It was if the debate should have been prolonged till after the election

topic

[Dookus]

79. the theme of the thread is irrelevant

somebody who uses the term the way you used it is being very insensitive to gay people. That's all I'm saying.

I don't use the term "oriental", because I know it's offensive. You should grant us the same courtesy.

[Kamika]

80. ehm

oriental is fine by me..
hetero is fine by me aswell

I I was gay and someone said "homo debate" it would be fine aswell

[Dookus]

81. why am I not surprised?

[Djinn]

119. you have no idea

whether or not it would be "fine" because you're not in that situation

and it doesn't matter what offends YOU, it offends others, you asked "is it offensive" answer "YES"

[Lost in GA]

110. Correction

Dookus, Oriental is not offensive, though it would confuse me since I am used to being called Indian. Other than that, I agree that labels can be hurtful when used by particular people, in particular ways. I have already been edited for a rude reply to K, and have posted an apology for that.
I happen not to be gay, but feel strongly that there is neither a 'straight' nor a 'crooked' way to live and love. I also have strong feelings that nobody should be persecuted for their life choices, and admire the bravery of those who make those choices despite the persecution they know they will face.
Despite my views, I am uncomfortable amongst people who flamboyantly display their sexuality. Let me rephrase that, and I am searching for answers to my feelings, so please help by understanding what I am trying to say, rather than reading the words themselves..I am irritated by the stereotype that I think K is referring to...like the style maven on E TV..I forget his name. Why is that? I am also irritated by Justin Timberlake following Janet around like a dog following a .......in heat. I don't know if its the same irritation or not. Do you have insights into any of this?

[Dookus]

115. I have some thoughts, but I don't know if they're insightful

First off, thank you very much for expressing your views without making any broad claims.

Yes, many people are uncomfortable with "effeminate" men. I respect very much that you're willing to admit it. I think some people are uncomfortable with it because it tends to defy the rigid gender rules we're usually raised with, and that often upsets people. Furthermore, such men don't "hide" the fact that they're gay, and that, too, upsets people. Many people are very uncomfortable with the idea of gay sex, and they don't want to be reminded of it by seeing a man who acts that way, EVEN IF HIS BEHAVIOR IS ENTIRELY NON-SEXUAL.

Yes, Carson on Queer Eye is very effeminate. He's also hysterically funny, and in my mind, braver than most men, gay or straight, will ever be.

It is very very difficult to be an effeminate man in our world, and those who do it openly and proudly are heros in my book. For some insight, try reading "The Naked Civil Servant" by Quentin Crisp. Mr. Crisp was a flamboyant gay man in London, starting in the 1930's. He was beaten and arrested more times than one could count, but he never stopped. He lived a life of desperate obscurity until he was well into his 60s, when he became something of a celebrity. He is a hero.

The drag queens who stood up to the police in June of 1969 during the Stonewall riots were heros, too.

I think attitudes are changing, and they're changing quickly, largely because of shows like Queer Eye, Will and Grace, etc. Effeminate gay men are now shown as whole people, and that can only help. Yes, people have to overcome their discomfort, but that's no different than any other civil rights movement. My father never saw a black person in his life until he joined the army, when he was shipped down south. He's not a racist - he just was never exposed to black people. Same for gay people - except almost EVERYBODY knows a gay person, even if they don't know they know one. The out and proud gay people do a great service to our society in showing people that gay people exist, that we're decent people, that we do our jobs and pay our taxes and mow our lawns.

As to Oriental, the problem with it is that it describes people based on their physical relationship to Europe. It's a euro-centric view of the world. Asia isn't any more Eastern than anything else - there's no East Pole.

[tishaLA]

121. Hey Dook

if you get a chance, watch Ellen next Monday on Oxygen if you have it. The Queer Eye guys were on today (and it will repeat a week hence) and they were adorable. Especially Carson, who is such a sweet, bitchy boy.

[Dookus]

122. excellent

I Tivo'ed it today, haven't watched it yet. I didn't know they were gonna be on. It should be fun! thanks.

[Lost in GA]

123. very interesting

I read your post twice, and will read it a few more times to understand it fully. Let me first thank you for trying to help me work this out, the only person I have been able to discuss this in depth with is my wife, and she can only give me the female hetero version, so I haven't had any gay intellectual input at all in this 'inner debate'.
We don't have cable, so I have never seen 'queer eye', and don't know the characters, but agree about the 'discomfort around effeminate males', because I know I am equally uncomfortable around very manly women.
Is it about sex? I don't know, the first time I saw a gay aquaintance kiss his partner, I was struck by the amount of love they shared, and don't remember feeling any more awkward than I would have if a hetero coupled kissed with me standing close by, almost intruding on a private moment. But logically, discomfort about man on man sex must play a role, since I am a guy. And my wife tells me that she feels uncomfortable around manly homosexual females.
I think you're right, it must also make both of us uncomfortable because it does challenge our ideas of the traditional roles that a man and a woman play.
I agree that 'out and proud' people do a great service to our society. I think its also a mark of how tolerant a society is to people who are different. As a minority, and a couple very proud of their heritage, that's important to us, and the single most important reason that we support the Democratic Party. If we don't have the choice to live the way we want to, and celebrate our diversity rather than hide it, everything else is meaningless.
One of the reasons that I agreed to move to the South from the liberal NE was that my future employer sent a very obviously gay female executive to welcome me when I came to interview. I immediately thought, if a gay woman can work for this company and succeed, so can I. I can't imagine how much harder it is for her than it is for us in this small Southern town.
I abhor institutionalized hate and phobias against others, and see it too often as the dominant emotion in the faces of right wingers across the globe. We need more understanding, less ranting, we need to respectfully agree or disagree, and I hope a Dem in Washinton will bring this country closer to that happy place.
Again, thank you for your reply.

[Bundbuster]

88. More often than not

it's used as an insult slur. When NFL running back Emmitt Smith wanted to maximize his derision for former coach Bill Parcells (a staight man), he chose to call him "a homo." Think about that for a moment...Of all the insulting terms he had to choose from, still allowed in public speech today, this Black man chose to label Parcells a HOMO.

The last vestige of "legal", accepted-by-some prejudice and hate.

Next time you think about tossing that term about, think twice please.

[tishaLA]

113. Actually it wasn't Emmitt

it was Jeremy Shockey, the NY Giants tight end (insert your joke here....or not) and he is white.

Just wanna set the record....something.

Edited for clarity.

[Bundbuster]

114. You're right, tisha - thanks

Just Googled it, learn something every day. Now who was it that gave me bad information on Emmitt? "Insert" tight end joke here - yikes!

[Mrs. Venation]

94. First of All, I Do Not "Prefer" The Same Sex

I have no attraction to the opposite sex. None. Zilch. Nada. My orientation dictates my attraction to women; I fall in love with women, not men. I do have some preferences within the gender. For example, a dry sense of humor is important, as is being politically progressive, intellectually stimulating, having respect for others, loving music, loving animals . . . you should see the difference between preference and orientation now.

As to your question, I dislike "homo." I am simply a female human being, trying to get through my journey on this planet doing as little damage as possible and loving as widely as possible.

[Lost in GA]

112. nice post

especially the last paragraph

[Mrs. Venation]

128. Thank You Very Much

It doesn't take any extra effort to live one's life in a loving and kind manner. I find it takes a great deal of energy to remain angry and blinded by hatred, though.

I rejoice in the diversity we've been given as a gift from God. Life would be so boring if we were all alike.

:hug:

[Forkboy]

124. If you even have to ask

you're already too far gone.

[oxymoron]

125. Could this thread have anything to do with this previous thread of yours?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=798697

If so, it really sucks.