Why do DUers hate Thomas Kinkade?

[OmahaBlueDog]

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/3038

This week, MadFloridians journal comments on the nomination of Lee Greenwood to the National Arts Council. During the thread, Thomas Kinkade bashing set in.

Don't get me wrong, he's not eactly my taste (and my taste runs from Rembrandt and Rubens to Frederic Remington to Salvador Dali. I'm all over the road). However, why do we insist on running down those who like Kinkade or for that matter those whose tastes don't match with ours?

[GOPisEvil]

1. Because he's a multi-millionaire and people with real talent can't eat.

Plus, he doesn't even paint the paintings. His factory assembly line workers do. Oh, and he's a real right-wing asshole, too.

[OmahaBlueDog]

2. Well.....

1) Talent is in the eye of the beholder.. or in the case of the modern world, the buyer
2) By the 60's, Picasso got into some "assembly line art."
3) Serious question: would you not watch "The Godfather" because Robert Duval has become a wingnut, or "Deliverance" because Jon Voight is a winger? Some very talented people are on the wrong side of politics. (granted, I've grown to despise Ted Nugent and Hank, Jr.)

[Zomby Woof]

5. How about the cloying, saccharine, smarminess of them?

The overbearing, artificial lighting effects? The Reader's Digest-flavored pseudo-Americana "warmth" and "coziness" they evoke? Or the fact that his demographic is made up of the same kinds of RW fake Chrustian asswipes that he is? (He's a drunken misogynist, but that is admittedly beside the point when it comes to his shitty craft - however, it is fitting when one considers the hypocrisy which normally accompanies moralistic phonies like Kinkade).

Yes, it is subjective, and we people with taste and critically sharp eyes at DU reserve the right to slam his colon-spackled canvases and the blue-haired old bitties and uptight, cemented-sphincter suburban matrons who buy them.

Picasso's skid marks had more talent in them than anything found in the Kinkade canon.

[keroro gunsou]

11. kinkade is to fine art

what spam is to fine dining.

[LostinVA]

23. I disagree -- Spam never tries to pretend it's pork tenderloin!

[OmahaBlueDog]

16. So why don't we have the same venom for Norman Rockwell?

Rockwell clearly embodied "Reader's Digest-flavored pseudo-Americana 'warmth" and "coziness'"

I'm not going to argue that he's a swell guy. However, I'm not certain that Dali, for example, was exactly known for warmth and charm.

"We people with taste and critically sharp eyes at DU reserve the right to slam his colon-spackled canvases and the blue-haired old bitties and uptight, cemented-sphincter suburban matrons who buy them." This is where you lose me. Why are people who don't share your taste bad or wrong? It's not like politics, where their bad laws or decisions screw up your life. It's a print. You're not harmed if people choose to buy it. OBTW, it may shock you to learn that I know Obama voters who own works by Kinkade...go figure?

[GOPisEvil]

18. Most Norman Rockwell paintings told a story.

A schmaltzy story, perhaps at times, but a story nonetheless. There's something there to which many can relate. I don't get that from Kinkade's work. If you or anyone else does, that's fine.

Honestly I dislike the guy much more because he's often a jerk than because he sells things I don't like.

[mopinko]

27. rockwell never painted the same picture twice.

although probably no painter has ever been further from me in style and approach, i respect norman rockwell. he worked very hard, and was very successful at portraying exactly what he meant to portray. he was an illustrator as well as a painter, if that makes any sense to people who don't know that you can do that without a computer.
but my point is that he did speak the truth. that is what makes so much of his work so touching. and so funny.

[Zomby Woof]

30. That illustration is still true

He predicted the dynamics of the DU Lounge. :-)

[Zomby Woof]

20. Rockwell actually stepped outside his confines

Yes, he was commissioned by the Saturday Evening Post to illustrate bits and pieces of Mythical America. But he paid attention to detail. There was more to that dreck than met the eye.

When he was freed up from those commissions, he was capable of evoking some pretty powerful images - which showed a much more authentic America:



"The Problem We All Live With"


As for your other statements, you are conflating an awful lot with my opinions. Bad taste is the most democratic of values - even fellow Obama supporters are capable of wretched tastes. :rofl:

[XemaSab]

35. I posted the same picture down below

Note well the detail.... ALL the detail.

[Zomby Woof]

41. Yes

We've come so far... as this week has powerfully brought home.

But the Palin mobs showed us how far yet we have to go.

[OmahaBlueDog]

52. OK, I'll concede defeat on the Rockwell argument

You are correct, much of his work is sharp and insightful. There is some schmaltz mixed into the body of work, but he's a fine artist.

[LostinVA]

24. Norman Rockwell is NOTHING like TK

Rockwell was very talented, and his paintings are sharp commentaries on Americana.

[NV Whino]

28. Rockwell actually painted his own paiintings

Rockwell's paintings are more illustrative than fine art, but nevertheless, they are decent quality and reflect a fine talent.

Kinkaid's stuff is assembly line painting. They are textured prints with a dab of paint here and there. They are insipid and interchangeable. If you are around them too long, you will require an insulin shot.

[XemaSab]

33. Most people associate Rockwell with a schmaltzy sentimentalism

That is NOT everything he painted.

Some of his pictures are pretty dark.

[elshiva]

55. A photographer once pointed out the symbolism in that painting.

The little girl's notebook is a blue field with white stars, the blue part of the American flag. The red tomato splotches on the white wall are the red and white stripes. Very powerful.

[Kajsa]

92. Norman Rockwell was a good artist,imho.

I can't say the same for Kinkade.

But I agree, we shouldn't bash those who
like Kinkade's paintings.

btw, Kinkade's theft of the title

" painter of light" is not appreciated.

That artist was Rembrandt.

[GOPisEvil]

6. If anyone likes Kinkade's art, that's fine by me. My mom loves him, and I still love her.

I will admit the guy does have more artistic talent than do I, but I don't really care for his art. I think there are people doing work that has far more meaning and has much more depth that cannot make a living. I understand the nature of selling to the masses, but it just rubs me the wrong way. It's not just Kinkade, it's Britney, etc in music as well. It seems like mediocre, middle of the road, boring stuff rules almost to the point of completely marginalizing independent and more avant garde artists.

I do try to separate an artist's talent from his or her politics. But, I will make decisions about which artists I choose to support directly. I can watch The Godfather without putting a dime into Duvall's pockets directly. I assume he may get some residual from the network that shows the movie, but I don't pay that directly. I would not buy a movie directly from Duvall, because I do not think he is worth my support, even though he is an incredible actor.

[OmahaBlueDog]

26. I would say I'm pretty much in agreement with you

I don't like his work, personally, and I've read articles about his behavior (which can be, allegedly, nasty). I don't get knocking the people who like his work. "I-know-better-than-you" attitudes on matters of personal taste come off as elitist.

[Fran Kubelik]

38. to point one:

I don't like Kinkaid because I don't like his art. :shrug:

[OmahaBlueDog]

48. I should have edited the OP to read "Why do we hate those who like Kinkaid"

I don't like his art, either...but I may have an opportunity to buy some Kinkaid Christmas plates fairly cheap and send them to people who do like his art.

That will make me a boxed wine drinking, Olive Garden eating, Thomas Kinkaid buying DU lounger. It'd be easier to be an Obama supporter on Free Republic. ;-)

[crispini]

74. "Hate" would be too strong a word, at least for me.

Imagine instead a GINORMOUS eyeroll and the raised eyebrow of extreme distate.

I mean, why buy Kincade if you're going to buy kitch? Just skip straight to the cheap Chinese knockoffs you can pick up at the dollar store. You'd get about the same level of artistic merit and it'd be equally as decorative. And much less expensive.

[Book Lover]

53. ...

1 - No, it is not. Talent is not subjective; taste is. I may not personally find, oh just for the sake of argument, Andsel Adams' photography something I *like*, but I can recognize the man's talent. I put it to you that Kincaid has no talent. His art does not say something new or compelling. The world is not a more complex place because of it.

2 - Do you mean his copperplate etchings? I would say that there is a qualitative difference between a medium that is used in order to create multiple copies and a medium that is not, and to have hundreds of painters paint on an assembly line differs from making prints.

3 - If it colored my perception of the actors' performance and interfered with my appreciation of the film as a film, yes, I would not watch the Godfather because of the actors. If it is relevant to you, I refuse to watch any Arnie film while he is sitting in Sacramento, for instance.

[OmahaBlueDog]

57. Perhaps people like his work because they want less complexity in the world

My sig pic is Andy Thomas' "True Blues". It's the Presidential equivalent of "Dogs Playing Poker", but gazing upon it makes me happy.

I'm not trying to corner you on the actor thing -- I'm just wondering. I will still watch a Jon Voight film, but I reflexively change the radio when Ted Nugent comes on. I still admire Disney, despite his willing participation in blacklisting.

[Book Lover]

60. Sure, OK, but

that is what good art does; makes you think. That's all my point was about.

[OmahaBlueDog]

65. Where do you come down on LeRoy Neiman?

[JVS]

76. How can you hate Bocephus!

[OmahaBlueDog]

84. Actually,I like some of his music,but I'm really ticked at his comments...

...about Obama not liking the National Anthem

[Shakespeare]

86. "Talent is in the eye of the beholder" - that's really not true.

There IS an objective aspect to judging whether art is quality or not. Kinkade falls squarely under "not."

He's hackneyed, simplistic and repetitive.

[BlueJazz]

3. Painter Said to Be Focus of FBI Probe

Painter Said to Be Focus of FBI Probe
By Kim Christensen
August 29, 2006 in print edition C-1

The FBI is investigating allegations that self-styled “Painter of Light” Thomas Kinkade and some of his top executives fraudulently induced investors to open galleries and then ruined them financially, former dealers contacted by federal agents said.

Investigators are focusing on issues raised in civil litigation by at least six former Thomas Kinkade Signature Gallery owners, people who have been contacted by the FBI said.

The ex-owners allege in arbitration claims that, among other things, the artist known for his dreamily luminous landscapes and street scenes used his Christian faith to persuade them to invest in the independently owned stores, which sell only Kinkade’s work.

“They really knew how to bait the hook,” said one former dealer who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the case. “They certainly used the Christian hook.”

[baldguy]

80. Oh, so he's THAT kind of artist!

[JVS]

4. just haterz hating

[DS1]

7. Becuase he always leaves all the goddamn lights on!

That, and his paintings are missing many of the things which separate art from crap.

To each their own.

[Ishoutandscream2]

8. Well, he was a terrible manager of the Partridge Family

[OmahaBlueDog]

32. Wasn't that his brother, Reuben?

[mopinko]

9. i don't like any artist that makes the same shit forever.

and, as an artist, i think the difference is this- real art is not about beauty, it is about truth.
there is the true rendering of beauty, which has great value. but the cranking out of the same frikkin shit, which has no truth to it, is not art. it is a kind of lie.
i was not the least bit surprised when he got slapped for fraud. he had so much practice at lying.

and, yeah, there are real painters out there starving while bozos like him get rich. at least the bozos who started out making art, then got sucked into cranking out crap had something to say at one time in their lives.

[harmonicon]

13. well said

[OmahaBlueDog]

47. I get neither truth nor beauty out of Rothko or Pollock, and they hang in museums..

..but if you have the money and it's what you want to buy, it doesn't bother me.

Again, my problem isn't the hating on Kinkaid. My problem is with the hating on the people who like his stuff. It's like Britney Spears; she's not my taste, but I wouldn't knock her fans.

[mopinko]

56. i had a huge fight with my BIL one christmas

about whether or not they were art. i never liked this man, but that was really about the last straw. now i try to just not talk to him.
the fans i actually know are all bush voters. it would be one thing to like that dreck, it is another to insist that it is art, and to argue with others who see that it is dreck.

and personally, i am not a big pollock fan. i guess i am glad that he existed, but all i see in his paintings is his rotting mind. maybe i am just jealous. no one picks women painters up out of the gutter and takes care of them. there is no romance in a drunken woman.
and i guess i know i am never going to fuck the next peggy guggenheim.
rothko, i think, is painting about painting. i guess he did it "first." i do wish that others would not bother. put that stuff in the been there done that pile. helen frankenthaler was way, way better at it, anyway.

[OmahaBlueDog]

64. My intent is certainly NOT to start a huge fight

My taste in art is eclectic, and I don't claim any depth of expertise. It's like wine -- I drink what I want and convention be damned. My wife loves the music of Barry Mannilow; I would rather endure stress positions at Guantanamo Bay than listen to "Mandy" or "Can't Smile Without You." Nevertheless, I bought the charming Mrs, OBD a Mannilow box set last year because I love her and the fact that she likes what I consider to be dreck doesn't change that.

So what it comes down to is that I defend the right to like dreck.

[crispini]

75. You may, of course, defend the right to like dreck all you want.

The rest of us may, in turn, continue to call it dreck. And, since people put a great deal of their sense of self in their personal choices of art and music, those who like dreck are, at the least, going to get called "lovers of dreck." It's all part of life's rich pageant. :D

Besides, it's so much FUN to hate on Kincade. There are so many creative and innovative ways to do so. Hating Kincade is almost like a minor league sport here on DU. Hee.

[mopinko]

94. that's fine, just don't demand that i agree with you, is my point.

don't get bent if i pass on that wine.
i like some crap, too. i read some crap books. i drink some crap beer. but i know they are crap, and will not try to convince you that crap is cake.
and i think it is no accident that kincade is the artist of record of the moron class.

[Mz Pip]

10. Don't get me started on Kincaid

The guy is a hack. He's a fundie freak and has made a fortune overcharging people for his overly saccharin idyllic scenes. It's factory art. He sells copies of his work that he adds a brush stroke or two to then signs them. Then sells them for outrageous prices.



There is even a subdivision near here that has model homes furnished with his couch designs and icky prints featured on every wall. Here's an article about it.

http://dir.salon.com/story/mwt/style/2002/03/18/kinkade_village/

I could go on and on about him. He's not an artist. He's a conglomerate.

[XemaSab]

29. This article made my evening

:D

[Mz Pip]

44. Back when this place opened

Mr Pip and I visited out of curiousity. It was nothing more than a subdivision planted like so many subdivisions in the ever sprawling SF Bay Area. Kitch with a 6 figure price tag. Nothing special about the designs or the floor plans. Just another subdivision on what used to be the rolling golden hills of California. Blech. :puke:

[curse of greyface]

12. He is the Pollack of representive art... and for you non-art historians that is a slam.

[crispini]

14. Because, to be perfectly honest, he's a WAY EASY target

of the obligatory DU Ten Minutes Hate. :evilgrin:

Honestly, he really is an artistic hack and a ripoff artist to boot. People go off and pay way too much for his "works" that are just prints with a few daubs on them, assured by their "art dealer" that these are "investments" that will be worth lots of dough in the future. Yeah, right.

[XemaSab]

15. Here's the deal:

You can hang a calendar of cute puppies in your office, or put a postcard of a kitten on your fridge, but you wouldn't call those art.

Similarly, his pictures of cute little cottages don't say anything interesting or surprising about the world.

It's an idyllic world that doesn't exist and never has existed, but it's nevertheless a potent republican fantasy about the world.

Personally, in my office, I prefer to have pictures of children getting attacked by wild animals. It keeps your coworkers on their toes. :)

[OmahaBlueDog]

19. Who wants to be interested or surprised?

As an aside, I remember the wide eyed-look of one of the female packers from the moving company when she saw my poster of "Dream Caused by the Flight of a Bee around a Pomegranate a Second Before Awakening" (that's the one with the tigers leaping toward the reclining nude). I thought of that with your children-attacked-by-animals comment.

OK, back to the argument. Why must art say anything interesting or surprising. Why can't art simply be what you find beautiful in the world? Ansel Adams creates wonderful images of the American West, but I don't know that they truly challenge perceptions.

[XemaSab]

54. A lot of Ansel Adams' pictures are of rocks and snow

He's also got a lot of human pictures that he is less famous for, but are definitely not a "pretty" look at the world.



In case you didn't know, this is the cemetery at Manzanar relocation camp.

[OmahaBlueDog]

61. The shot of Manzanar is an incredible shot

...and even Adams had only ever shot show and rocks, he did it so so well that people are now Hellbent on preserving those rocks. Adams did good in the world. One of my Dad's regrets is not taking Photography from Adams during the 50s at Cal.

I may buy some Kinkaid Xmas plates tomorrow from an estate sale to give as gifts to a) a Kinkaid fan I know and b) my MIL, who likes that kind of thing. I'd agree his work isn't my taste, but I've reached a place where I can't stand "my-music-is-better-than-your-music" or literature or art.

[cemaphonic]

My father-in-law once got into a pinecone fight with Adams.

I hadn't seen that picture before, thanks.

[datasuspect]

88. i think i am falling in love with you

[Fleshdancer]

17. Because he breast feeds his crappy paintings at the Olive Garden

plus, he tutched the but. It's a known fact.

[OmahaBlueDog]

34. Now, you'll be mad because he painted while drinking boxed wine.....

You people!

[Fleshdancer]

43. TAKE THAT BACK!

We totally appreciate box wine drinkers in our own way...through vicious copycat threads and sarcastic innuendos! It's the fun lounge way damn it! x(

[LostinVA]

21. Along with everything listed above, he's a damned crook and a liar

[Danger Mouse]

22. Because his artwork is shit. That's not my opinion, it's fact.

[Zomby Woof]

25. "Shit" is too elevated a description

I rest my case.

[GOPisEvil]

31. The Noah's Ark was MUCH better.

:)

[Zomby Woof]

36. I changed it because you had to click the link

It was hard finding one where you didn't have to.

Maybe I will try again. It was truly awful, lol.

[GOPisEvil]

37. The best part of the ark: The Pandas.

I mean, I know if you take the Bible literally, there would be pandas, but come ON. Pandas in the Middle East? :rofl:

[Zomby Woof]

42. He brought them to his area on... (ready?)

The Panda Express. :rofl:

I am reminded of the old Cosby routine "Two mosquitoes - male and female." :D

[GOPisEvil]

45. *groan*

"What's a cubit?" :D

[Zomby Woof]

46. Oh let's see... a cubit...

I used to know what a cubit was...

[OmahaBlueDog]

49. .. at least there aren't dinosaurs

[Danger Mouse]

50. Don't give him any ideas.

He'll stick a plastic dinosaur on it, re-title it, and sell it at three times the price.

[Zomby Woof]

51. LOL

True... but GOPisEvil has me all worked up over the pandas now. :o

[curse of greyface]

58. Perhaps they escaped from the zoo? nt

[Danger Mouse]

39. C'mon, the tree kind of looks like a massive pile of shit. Give him some credit.

:puke:

[Lucian]

62. That's an insult to shit everywhere.

[KitchenWitch]

40. Personally, everything I have seen of his looks like a taudry paint by number

His art seriously lacks originality.

My taste in art range from my great aunt's primitive style paintings to Monet's espressionism, to Warhol's pop-art, to much of the art of the Renaissance era. I can't stand the dreck that Kinkade wants to call art.

[OmahaBlueDog]

63. Your taste sounds like my Mom except for the Warhol

Monet, Modigliani, Renoir, Degas, but also the old masters.


My point is simply that if looking at a painted house that has too much light pouring out of it, or a painting of the Daytona 500 (where you can't quite tell if they're shooting off fireworks or if the flyover planes are bombing the track) makes you happy or fills you with inexplicable nostalgia, well why not buy it, and more power to you. I don't look to art to further the search for truth; I look for art that makes me happy.

...of course the fact that images tigers leaping toward Dali's wife, as well as pictures of Presidents playing poker, make me happy probably makes me strange in some way.

[dawgmom]

59. The 70's porn actor mustache?

[SarahB]

66. All of what everyone said plus...

my husband's best friend has had to deal with him because of his work (not in art, but distribution of various commercial products which should also tell people something about his work) and on a personal level, he's a huge diva asshole.

[Heidi]

67. I don't _hate_ him. I just believe there can be a wide gulf between "painter" and "artist."

I would call Mr. Kinkade a painter at best.

[libodem]

68. Is schmaltzy a word?

to me they seem schmaltzy. Now, I'm going to google that word.

[Heidi]

69. Yes. It's right there in the dictionary along with "kitschy" and "smarmy."

:rofl:

[Kutjara]

70. Personally, I prefer the UK English word "twee."

It essentially means overly cute, maudlin, sentimental and/or bathetic, and therefore lacking any genuine emotion or meaning.

Kinkade paintings are the very definition of twee.

[Adsos Letter]

71. I won't run others down over liking him, however...

my diabetes prevents me from viewing his stuff...

[coyotespaw]

72. Same reason I hate Tim LaHaye...

either he's a major fundie dickweed, or he's preying upon the legitimate faith of lesser fundie dickweeds.

[Franzia]

73. His paintings look like he drank pepto-bismol and grape juice,

then projectile-vomited on the canvas.

Blech.

[Auggie]

77. It's illustration, people. Not fine art. Get the distinction!

Kinkade, Rockwell, Neiman... ILLUSTRATORS!

[baldguy]

78. Wait, Thomas Kinkade is a real person?

I thought he was an advertising icon like Betty Crocker or Cap'n Crunch.

[Heidi]

79. He also doesn't paint all of his paintings himself.

Many in the fine arts community contend that Kinkade pays painters to "fill in" the colors at his direction. I wouldn't think of signing my name to something someone else painted, nor would any other artist I know.

[Starry Messenger]

81. Kincade isn't an artist, he's a franchise.

To me his kitsch reminds me of art sold in Germany to glorify the Fatherland. It portrays a happy little America that never existed and reinforces to fundies and freepers that things were better in "the good old days". I don't tend to run down the people who like it, because it is so heavily marketed.

There is much better stuff out there. It's harder to find because it is not sanctioned by funding. The nomination of someone like Lee Greenwood is deeply distressing. It's already hard to compete for these grants if you are a little bit avant-garde.

[MrsMatt]

82. Aesthetics aside, I think his "work" is pandering

and cynical. He does nothing without an eye to commercial sales - he does not create art for the sake of art. It's all about the money.

[BarenakedLady]

83. What they all said.

[Nikia]

85. His paintings cost as much as paintings by real artists

Who devote many hours to each of their own paintings. That is why I question why my mother seems to buy one at least every year. I admit to accepting and hanging one of her old ones. If I am going to buy mass produced art though, I am going to spend less than 10% what a Kinkade painting costs.

[ghostsofgiants]

87. I find his artwork completely soulless.

He makes me feel the same as most prog rock bands, oddly enough. Technically proficient? Sure. Does it make me feel anything? Not even close. (Plus, overall, completely unappealing aesthetically.)

[BrotherBuzz]

89. I dislike Kinkade for the same reason I disliked Richard Bach's book....

Jonathan Livingston Seagull. There is merit for both of their work, I just don't like the stuff.

Hate is a strong word.

[Arugula Latte]

90. 'Cuz he sucks donkey schlong.

[jobycom]

91. Some DUers just hate, and Thomas Kincaide happens to be available.

He's a talented craftsman at what he does, but some people prefer to whine about what he doesn't do and what they wished he did. Generally, if I don't like asparagus, I don't eat asparagus, I don't start bashing all asparagus and everyone who has ever liked them. But some DUers didn't get enough hugs from Mommy, so they react by bashing in angry terms everything they don't like (or often, don't understand).

[PassingFair]

93. His art is second only to THIS guy's:

[GreenPartyVoter]

95. I had a pic of her on my wall as a kid. Same waif but only from

the shoulder on up.

[HEyHEY]

96. Cause he's boring and uncreative