Do programs, books, stories, about infamous crimes and criminals fascinate you?

[Lil Missy]

I've always been especially fascinated with the programs that show the use of highly technical forensics to solve a crime. It just boggles my mind that a hair, a bite mark, a piece of fiber, a notch on a wrench, the trajectory of a bullet, etc., can prove someones innocence or guilt.

And programs, studies, books, about the most infamous serial killers and mass murders pique my interest as well. I think it's the sensationalism that intrigues me. I want to look into their minds and backgrounds, (except for the gory details). Kinda like driving by an accident and slowing down. You want to look, but you don't want see any of the gross and gory details if they didn't survive.

I read all the books and stories about Manson, Bundy, Dahmer, Gacy, Adam Walsh murder, Etan Patz. And John Joubert, who was murdering and mutilating young boys in my own neighborhood. I had a young son at that time, and talk about some paralyzing fear. I was also fascinated with the story of Sybil, and read that book a couple times.

At one really boring job several years ago, I think I read the entire Crime Library website while twiddling my thumbs.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/

How about you? Do crime stories and the works of criminal minds give you any curiosity?

[flvegan]

1. I had a mafia fetish during the Gotti reign.

I probably know more about the mob pre-2000 than anyone I know.

I'm also fascinated by the likes of Manson, and I watch any time one of his Bio shows or documentaries comes on.

Yeah, I'm a freak.

[Lil Missy]

4. Yeah, I'm a freak too. I really like the "Most Evil" program,

where that Dr rates famous killers on a scale of 1 to 18 or something on the scale of evilness.

[flvegan]

6. That's a good program.

I do like that one.

[arcadian]

2. Zodiac

Such a weird case. Wearing the "executioners" outfit and all the cryptic stuff.

[Lil Missy]

8. I saw that movie, too. Great movie!

So many others I didn't mention. Like Green River Killer, BTK, Wayne Williams, David Berkowitz, Boston Stangler, Jack the Ripper, etc.

[ghostsofgiants]

34. One of the most fascinating cases ever.

I've been intrigued by that one since I was really young.

[AlCzervik]

3. Gary Gilmore was one of the first true crime stories that peaked my interest and Idi Amin

My Dad had books on both and a few on Johnstown. Later in life a friend of our family went missing and is presumed dead, 2 different and unrelated people claim to have killed her and the police said both confessions were false, i always check on her case through the internet and a couple of times a year i call her mom, there still is no closure and her mother has aged about 100 years in the past 20.

[Lil Missy]

13. I vaguely remember the Gary Gilmore case.

I'm sorry to hear about your friend. And I can certainly understand her mother's sense of loss and lack of closure.

[AlCzervik]

14. Her face and info are on a few web sites about the missing, she was about 20 when she

disappeared so it's surreal just seeing her face, she's smiling and young and pretty with her whole future in front of her. Her mom appeared on The Maury Povich show about 17 years ago, she's a great lady and she's dedicated her life to finding out what happened to her daughter and other missing children, she actually moved to the state where Tiff was living in, i think it's maybe to feel closer to her, she was also and only child.

[Lil Missy]

17. I didn't want to ask or intrude, but can you give her name?

[AlCzervik]

18. i'll pm it you ok?

[Lil Missy]

25. Thank you. I "got" it!

:hi:

[Art_from_Ark]

55. I don't remember anything about Gillmore's case

only that he was the first prisoner executed (1977) after the reinstatement of capital punishment, and the only one (I think) who has been executed by firing squad since then.

[Lil Missy]

56. I think you are right, that's what I recall too.

Here's a link to his story.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/mass/gilmore/index_1.html

[XemaSab]

5. I will admit

True crime is something I have a love/hate relationship with.

When I was younger I read about a lot of serial killers... but the last book I read that had a serial killer in it skeeved the HELL out of me. :scared:

(It was "Death in Yosemite," and earlier that day I had been EXACTLY where some of the more gruesome stuff had happened. :scared::scared:)

[AlCzervik]

7. The yosemite killings had an even weirder feel because of who the perps brother was

that is a lot of WTF in one family.

[XemaSab]

10. No doubt

Of all the true crime books I have read, that dude scares the living crap out of me.

And I was right in between the house the naturalist was killed in, and the creek her body was dumped in. :scared:

[arcadian]

21. Who was the perp's brother?

I know the case vaguely.

[AlCzervik]

22. Steven Stayner, he was abducted by a child molester and eventually escaped--

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Stayner

he also died in a motorcycle accident. Just a lot of horror for one family.

[Jamastiene]

11. Wasn't that Steven Stainer's brother, Cary?

Steven Stainer was kidnapped by that child molester and kept from the time he was 7 until he was about 14 years old. Then he went back home and his own father wouldn't even look at him after he found out that he had been molested. Steven Stainer died at 16. His brother became a serial killer. I don't care what anybody says, their dad was a homophobic bastard to reject his own kid that way for being molested, like it was the kid's fault or something. I'm not surprised at all that the brother ended up becoming a serial killer.

[Lil Missy]

15. I have few words for "Dad".

Not only was he homophobe, but he made the tragedy of his son all about himself. What. a. pig.

[Lil Missy]

12. Oh yes, I recall it. That was Cary Stayner. Very tragic story in that entire family.

[Jamastiene]

9. Yes.

I am always looking for tips and pointers. :evilgrin:

[Lil Missy]

16. ......

:spank: :spank: :spank:

[Jamastiene]

29. Hmmmm...

Me likey :evilgrin:

[Manifestor_of_Light]

19. Interesting stuff.

I used to work at the courthouse as a court stenographer. I have seen thousands of cases of all kinds, and trials.

I don't understand why people read fictional crime, when true crime is so convoluted sometimes that it beats hell out of fiction.

"Blood and Money" is an excellent book about a murder trial that happened in Houston in 1970.

Straightforward killing, to me, is not interesting. When they have obscure reasons for doing it, it's interesting.

[rug]

20. I can't wait for Bush's memoirs.

[Lil Missy]

24. I appreciate the gesture in humor, but pul-leeze!

You think he'd ever admit to shit?

And even if he did, it would be Clinton's fault. You know, with that powerful penis and all. :eyes:

[Lil Missy]

23. Have you ever heard of John Joubert? Well, let me tell you about him.

He kidnapped, tortured, and killed a couple young boys in the Omaha area. As the search went on for this killer, parents in this area were absolutely terrified. I know I sure was; my son was young at that time, and in the murderer comfort/terror zone.

I happened to be dating a guy at the time who had access to the autopsy reports of both murdered children. What he told me about what this monster did to torture and sexually mutilate these boys was chilling and horrifying. And so unconscionable and unimaginable that I've never been able to repeat it to this day.

Joubert finally snapped for more and tried to take a kid out of a daycare setting in broad daylight. That's how he got caught. He was tried and sentenced to death. It also came to light that he had murdered a child in his hometown in Maine as well.

Once his execution date came up, he was all the news again, insisting that he'd had some kind or revelation and would never, ever, do such a thing again. Courts didn't buy it, and he was eventually put to death.

[jeff30997]

42. Serial killers recidivism rate = 100%

(Sorry,French only source)

Sur les statistiques qu'il a menées depuis le début du siècle, Stéphane Bourgoin a calculé les taux de récidive. Du 100 %: « Sur les 298 tueurs en série relâchés dans le monde, 298 ont tué à nouveau. Quel que soit leur âge. Il n'y a pas de traitement. Ces types-là sont incurables, en l'état actuel des connaissances scientifiques. Je pense qu'il n'y a qu'une perpétuité, réelle, pour les empêcher de récidiver.

To resume: On the 298 serial killers ever released 298 killed again.

http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2002/01/28/359690-Enquete-dans-le-monde-terrifiant-des-meurtres-en-serie-II.html

[Lil Missy]

54. It would be interesting to know the circumstances of their release.

Like, were they released on other charges before it became known they were serial killers? Or on legal technicalities?

John Joubert was a pedophile and sexual murderer, so I wonder how that plays into it too.

[Oeditpus Rex]

26. In particular, 'In Cold Blood'

I've read Capote's book four times and seen the original movie twice. Also, the JFK assassination; I've read a few books on that, though the reasons are as much political as forensic.

The mind of a murderer fascinates me, particularly if it's unrepentant.

[Lil Missy]

27. In that case, Truman Capote was more facinating to me.

Writing that book just about killed him.

[Skittles]

28. yes

it's not the gory stuff that hooks me but the investigations and character profiles - nothing they come up with in fiction can beat real life

[Lil Missy]

31. Oh, I don't care for the gory details either. The real life stuff? You couldn't make it up.

[Skittles]

41. have you read "Careless Whispers" by Carlton Stowers?

one of the best

[MrSlayer]

30. Yes. Prison, Mafia, L.A. Gangs, Serial Killers, Outlaw Bikers and other assorted maniacs.

I'm into all that type of stuff. I also like Pirates a lot too.

[Lil Missy]

32. I like all the Mafia movies; Godfather, Goodfellas, Once Upon a Time in America, etc.

The Godfather series was so complicated and interwoven that I've watched the series several times and always learn something new.

[Jamastiene]

33. My real answer:

Yes. I did a research project on Jeffrey Dahmer in college. The more I learned, the more I became fascinated with his feelings of "not wanting them to leave him." I've dated people that I really didn't want to leave me too...but killing them in order to get them to stay was never something that crossed my mind. I have always wondered about that with him.

And I will openly admit I actually kinda liked Aileen Wuornos for a while, at least until she got all preachy. Yes, I'm certifiable for that, probably. :evilgrin:

[Lil Missy]

36. Jeffrey Dahmer was the only one I felt some sympathy, for some reason.

I don't know why, I just did.

I understood the abandonment issues in his childhood that probably started his path to being a serial killer. Not that I REALLY understand it, but as far as the history of serial killers go.

He didn't just kill men, he kept body parts because of some need to keep them with him. He even resorted to cannibalism.

I know what you mean, we don't like or want people to leave or abandon us. But it is not within our wiring or radar to consider killing them. That's the difference between most of society and serial killers. That is part of what so fascinates me. Why do they even consider killing an option, when it would never cross most people's minds?

Aileen Wuornos was a case and a half. She always spooked the holy shit outta me. In her case, she was horribly beaten, abused, and neglected as a child, and dumped in the streets to prostitute herself for survival when she was still a child. I do think it is possible to create monsters. I think the same thing happened to Manson.

[jeff30997]

43. I have absolutely no sympathy for any of them.

Just curiosity.They are killing machines.

[Jamastiene]

50. Dahmer and Wuornos were the only ones I felt any sympathy for.

I do believe Wuornos was raped at least on the first murder and had PTSD for a long while after that. I know she had the shittiest representation in court of any high profile defendant I've ever seen. Plus, even though she was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder, they still said she was fit to stand trial. She also got NO treatment for the mental illness for the 12 years she was locked up down there in Florida. They tested her but never treated her and made her stand trial even though it was proven she had that mental illness.

In the first trial, they also would not allow the defense to bring up the fact that her first victim was a convicted rapist. I'm not exactly defending her for killing the rest, but her defense didn't defend her at all for the first one and told her to plead no contest for the rest. She could have done that without that lousy excuse for "defense" she had. They were more interested in making money off her. I still think her first murder was understandable.

[Lil Missy]

52. I think Wuornos truly did have a lot of really horrible things happen to her.

Like I said, I think this monster was created. But unfortunately, my 2 cents is that she was probably beyond rehabilitation. I sure would never want to see someone like that on the streets again.

[Jamastiene]

53. No, she needed to be in a mental facility at the very least.

She didn't need to be on the streets again. She even said herself that she would probably kill again if she was free. Her story was very tragic though. Very.

[SeattleGirl]

35. I'm hooked on that stuff.

I'm actually watching a true crime program on Discovery ID right now.

And I love true crime books, especially Ann Rule's. Ever read Small Sacrifices, about Diane Downs? That happened near where my family lives, not too long after I moved back to Washington. I know some of the people in that book, and my mom took care of the surviving daughter for awhile. She also saw Diane in action (i.e. Drama Queen), and said she knew that Diane had done it.

Yep, I love that stuff.

[Lil Missy]

38. Oh yeah, Diane Downs. That was awful. I saw the movie and read the stories.

Killing your own children is a pretty hard pill to swallow.

BTW, I am watching Discovery ID too. About the woman in Ohio?

[SeattleGirl]

40. The husband accused of killing her?

Or a different one? Not sure what time zone you're in.

[enigmatic]

37. The Cleveland Torso Murders have always intrigued me

I remember hearing about it as a kid growing up in Cleveland and the luridness of the case (and that it involved Eliot Ness, then Cleveland's Safety Director)was a huge pull for me. I even went w/ friends "Stand by Me" style on our bikes down to the flats on Kingbury Run where the murders were centered around a few times. I still try to read or watch everything related to the case, but it's really the only True Crime case that I go out of my way to keep up on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Torso_Murderer

[Lil Missy]

39. Never heard of that one. I'll save the link to read tomorrow.

[raccoon]

44. Yes! I love true crime stories. Thanks for the link.

I'm always curious about WHY the perp did it, and the perp's background.

[Lil Missy]

47. It's been a while since I read it, so I'm sure I could find a lot of new stuff now.

Enjoy the link!

[meegbear]

45. I am and I like the show "Most Evil" ...

on the Discovery Investigation channel. It reviews cases and places the person(s) on a scale of 1 to 22:

01: Those who kill in self-defense and do not show psychopathic tendencies (justifiable homicide)
02: Jealous lovers who, though egocentric or immature, are not psychopathic (crime of passion)
03: Willing companions of killers: aberrant personality — probably impulse-ridden, with antisocial traits
04: Kill in self-defense, but had been extremely provocative towards the victim
05: Traumatized, desperate people who kill abusive relatives and others (like to support a drug habit) but lack significant traits. Genuinely remorseful.
06: Impetuous, hotheaded murderers, yet without marked psychopathic features
07: Highly narcissistic, not distinctly psychopathic people with a psychotic core who kill people close to them (jealousy an underlying motive)
08: Non psychopathic people with smoldering rage who kill when rage is ignited
09: Jealous lovers with psychopathic features
10: Killers of people who were "in the way" or who killed, for example, witnesses (egocentric but not distinctly psychopathic)
11: Psychopathic killers of people "in the way"
12: Power-hungry psychopaths who killed when they were "cornered"
13: Killers with inadequate, rage-filled personalities who "snapped"
14: Ruthlessly self-centered psychopathic schemers
15: Psychopathic "cold-blooded" spree or multiple murders
16: Psychopaths committing multiple vicious acts
17: Sexually perverse serial murderers, torture-murderers (among the males, rape is the primary motive with murder to hide the evidence; Systematic torture is not a primary factor)
18: Torture-murderers with murder the primary motive
19: Psychopaths driven to terrorism, subjugation, intimidation and rape, (short of murder)
20: Torture murderers with torture as the primary motive but in psychotic personalities
21: Psychopaths preoccupied with torture in the extreme, but not known to have committed murder
22: Psychopathic torture-murderers, with torture their primary motive, sexual homicide

It's interesting to learn where a person is on the scale. Dahmer is a 22, Manson is an 18, etc.

[mitchum]

46. Yes, I can rattle off their stats as if they were baseball players

[Lil Missy]

48. Quick! Charles Ng! Go!

:)

[mitchum]

49. Convicted for 11; possibly killed as many as 25-30...

that Leonard Lake was a drama queen, wasn't he? :)

[Lil Missy]

51. What I recall most about the case was Ng's years of shenanigans with the court systems.

Didn't he file one Motion over a prison sandwich or something? What a piece of work he was.

[Lil Missy]

57. Just curious, did you hear about John Joubert?

I've always wondered if that was more of a local story than a national one. He sure did affect my life in a big way.

[Lil Missy]

58. speaking of evil tonight, let's bump this thread again.