Free Will - Is it real or illusion?

[peruban]

Good morning fellow DU'ers (I woke up late today).

The question is free will: Do we have it or are we a bundle of habits and tendencies programmed by our experiences?

I'm not even going to pull God into this because that will over complicate things but feel free to use a deity-based response if you need to. I'll post my own opinion in a couple of hours.

[RagAss]

1. There is no doer. Nobody does anything, everything just happens.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. My dear peruban!

I put the second response...

I believe that we think we have free will...

But mainly we don't...

There are so many influences on us, and we're certainly not aware of all of them...

:shrug:

:hi:

[CreekDog]

28. i like that answer

and that there are 10 copycats of this thread suggests that we don't act freely. :shrug:

[Schema Thing]

3. The term is almost meaningless outside of a religious construct

and it's just silly within the religious construct, imo.

[peruban]

4. Please elucidate.

I'd like to hear more.

[peruban]

5. shameless self kick

c'mon people, what's your take?

[DarkTirade]

6. Eh, it was a decent movie but the sequels sucked.

[SidneyCarton]

7. It's a bag of crackers on the rusted out bumper of a 56 Ford.

[SidneyCarton]

8. Ok, I realize now that the question is serious, so I will give a serious answer

We have free will, we can act, and follow a path of our own choosing, but it is limited. Limitations include, but are not limited to:

Our own mortality- I can choose not eat a single thing for the next year, I will die without accomplishing my goal.

The Laws of Physics- No matter how badly I wan't to fly, I will fall if I jump off the building I am currently sitting in.

Our fellow Human Beings, whose decisions affect us- I decide and my decisions make ripples which affect others, in turn, the ripples from other decisions affect me. As there are 6 Billion of us living in the relatively cramped proximity of a single planet, we all affect the paths of each other continuously. as John Donne put it, "No man is an island" and even if we were, Hurricanes and Tsunamis would still strike us.

So while free will exists, it is not unlimited.

[Fire Walk With Me]

9. There is free will. Then we get stuck with our habits.

One way of defining "habits" is "karma". Tendencies.

[billyskank]

10. It is a very difficult problem.

A "philosophical problem" is when a thing seems that it must be so, except when you analyse it, it also appears as if it cannot be. I have pondered this question of free will at great length, and still managed to form no conclusions. Sorry.

[leeroysphitz]

11. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. n/t

[rug]

12. I can't decide.

[CreekDog]

29. you aren't free to decide

:hide:

[northernlights]

13. total illusion

Our programming begins in utero. By the time we emerge, our fates are sealed.

[Taverner]

14. OK define free will

Is it when you 'choose' to do something?

If so, what about the thousands of events, or perhaps just one or two events that led you to such decision. Not exactly free will now is it?

But then again, maybe it is - - consider that only YOU have gone through said experience exactly as it has unfolded. This is unique, and as a result, defining a perfectly independent action.

Define your thresholds, and I'll tell you whether there is free will or not.

[peruban]

22. I meant not to include my own definitions because

I wanted to give everybody the liberty of defining it for themselves. I posted my own opinion below, but there really isn't a right or wrong answer in any case, I just really get off on philosophical conversation.

[Taverner]

23. Ahhh understood

You see I believe in a sliding scale of meaning. What 'Black and White' is to person X, it may be totally different to person Y.

[Unvanguard]

15. Unknowable. But we are pretty much required to assume it.

It is a postulate of decision-making.

[rucky]

16. How do you want us to vote?

[peruban]

18. I don't have a preference on your vote

I just wanted to see some ideas, I thrive on the stuff.

[Xipe Totec]

17. I have no choice but to believe in free will n/t

[CreekDog]

30. hey

:wtf: :banghead:

[Xipe Totec]

31. ...

:evilgrin:

[peruban]

19. My own take.

After reading some of the posts I have to go with "Other" and this is why:

Consider the nearly infinite number of events leading to a choice which is made. The choice itself could be considered to stand alone, thus the essence of free will.

On the other hand, we are programmed by our life experiences to have a defined set of beliefs and understanding. When we choose what we believe to be the "right choice" we are doing so based on a predefined basis, so in that sense the decision is not entirely free of bias, so it has been predetermined.

However, if we consider choices to have probabilities of expectation then we have a set of possible choices leading to a set of possible outcomes. This we can decide on, but the choice still does not stand alone - it is still an outcome of probabilities.

So, my general answer would be both within a limited construct. Cones of possibilities, as I believe Hawking put it.

[sasquatch]

20. Nice post, BF Skinner

:P

[peruban]

21. That's Principle Skinner to you, sir.

[Shine]

24. It's both

I'm okay with paradox. :D

[Dr. Strange]

25. A double reference: double points for those who catch both!

A choice can be as dangerous as a weapon. Refusing to choose is in itself a choice.

- PEARTEN, ancient Mentat philosopher

[astral]

26. There is no door

All is as it Should Be.

You are right where you are supposed to be.

It is written.

[CreekDog]

27. listen to what the man said...

i don't believe we have free will. ever try to break a bad habit? that's a simplistic example but indicative of the overall nature.

[old mark]

32. I'm pretty happy without free will - I have been quite fortunate

in the way things have happened, and usually the most significant events in my life have been completely unexpected things that just came at me. Most of what i planned for either nevr came about or was so distorted it was not worth the effort.

I don't plan much beyond the weekend anymore, and things just keep happening.

Actually, people who strongly believe they are in control have serious problems.


mark