women: seriously. what the fuck? I mean, come on.

[harmonicon]

Ok, I know that you have secret meetings in smokey rooms where you decide the fate of men individually and collectively, but couldn't you just fucking go a tiny little bit easy on us, or at least me?

And while I know that it's not likely to happen, would it absolutely kill you to at least consider changing the "nice guys finish last" rule?

Thank you for your time.

Also, I think the rest of you need to have a word with Liz.

[Haole Girl]

1. hmm

I think I'll sit this one out.

:popcorn:

[XemaSab]

3. .

:popcorn:

[FloridaJudy]

6. Is there butter on that?

Move over.

:popcorn:

[Bassic]

2. In my experience there are occasional exceptions to that rule

they are few and far between, but there's cool :D

[redqueen]

4. That's not a rule it's a myth.

I love my nice guy.

:loveya:

[Danger Mouse]

5. This can not possibly end well.

:popcorn:

[Deja Q]

7. Nice guys finish last, but what category do impotent men fit in?

:yoiks:

[ccharles000]

8. Thank god I'm gay

[redqueen]

9. Ooooh that's *really* nice.

My turn to break this out...

:popcorn:

[harmonicon]

12. high-five!

[truedelphi]

52. ccharles000 post - nice guys may finish last

But comfort yourself with the notion that whoever she is leaving you for may well not be straight - she and he just don't know it yet.

And many guys who don't listen think they are nice but just becuse someone talks to their date all night long doesn't mean they are nice. Women know that.

[Skittles]

73. please

I've seen more drama in my gay friends' relationships than any straights I know :D

[HopeFor2006]

10. But....

Maybe we like to save the best for last.
:hug:

[Lil Missy]

11. What happened dood? It would help to have a few details.

:shrug:

[harmonicon]

13. details, schmetails

ok.... fine...

As I frequently whine about on here, a month ago, my girlfriend of almost 4 years dumped me, because ...? Fuck if I know. Because I love her without end, would go anywhere, and do anything for her? Because I admire and adore her? Seriously, she said that I was being nice on the phone (she lives in California, I live in England... yeah, I know, but it had been long distance for a long time, and we'd worked through it).

I'm still absolutely crushed and broken hearted about it, but I realized that when I was talking to a mutual friend of ours who was here in town last week that I've transitioned to also being incredibly bitter about it. I know that I'm not perfect, and that I can be a shitty boyfriend, but I would also never cheat on a woman, would never say or do anything that I thought would hurt them, etc.

So, then, on top of this, there's this girl that I know here in town. I don't know her that well, so don't really know if she's someone I would ever like to actually date or not, but I do think that she's very sweet, smart, and incredibly pretty. Talking to her makes me feel better. Anyway, a couple of weeks ago, she finds out - via photographic evidence - that her live-in boyfriend has cheated on her. She was obviously distraught, and I had nothing at all to say. I desperately wanted to comfort her, but I knew that if I tried to talk to her that I would just break down and start bawling about my own situation, and wouldn't help matters in the least. I don't really know her well enough to give her a hug and say "hey, I care about you, and I'm sorry that this happened." At the same time, I'll admit, I kind of thought "score! girl I like can understand what I'm going through. Also, now maybe it wouldn't seem creepy for me to want to spend more time with her and get to know her" (if you're unaware, a single broken hearted guy wanting to get to know a girl who's in a relationship is down right creepy).

Then, this week, it seems like they've reconciled, because I've seen them out together a lot, and she definitely refers to him as "my boyfriend" - ok, strange there too - she's still chatty with me, but seems to be making a point of bringing him up in conversation now, where as she didn't in the past. I have no fucking idea what this means. Does it mean that she wants to be friends, but knows that maybe I'm interested and wants to let me down easy? Does it mean that she was interested at some point when I wasn't ready to deal with things but has now gone back to him? Fuck if I know - this is the exact kind of shit that you talk about in your secret meetings.

Basically, now I'm incredibly bitter and jealous in about a million different ways. I'm jealous that this couple was able to work things out despite having far more fucked up problems in their relationship than I had in mine, and I'm especially jealous of this fucker who treats an incredible woman that any man would love to spend time with (ok, and she's out of my league) like shit in any way that he'd like and gets to be with her. What the fuck? It's not like I've done anything to deserve her affection, but I find it hard to accept that this cheating son of a bitch is more deserving of love and affection from anyone than myself.

Also, after I saw them today, it was definitely confirmed that "Liz" (I'll call her "Liz", because that's her real name) is still planning on going out for drinks with me an my friends tomorrow for my birthday. It's a total mind fuck. If her shit head boyfriend is there, I'll just fucking avoid them but feel all creeped out and nervous the whole time anyway, and if he's not, whether or not it's in my best interests, I just may get incredibly drunk and explain all of this to her.

There's your (shortened version, I assure you) explanation.

[rockymountaindem]

14. That's rough man

But yeah, I see stuff like that go on all the time.

[harmonicon]

30. yes, but why?

Why in their smokey back room meetings could the girls not just say "Liz, give yourself a few weeks or months to think about this. By that time, harmonicon will have had a few months to think about things himself, and then, possibly, you could have gone over to his house to watch Alfred Hitchcock movies, as you'd hinted at to him at a party when you were both incredibly emotionally frail." Why couldn't they do that? No. No answers. We'll never know.

[elshiva]

Honey...

:hug: So sorry.

[tismyself]

31. this is what I think

Your friend there in town is bringing up her "boyfriend" in conversation now because 1) she's trying to not look like a moron in front of you, and 2) she's trying to convince herself that everything is really wonderful and the cheating thing was only the result of something that can be explained away. I'll bet a dollar that the excuse involved booze. And I'll raise my own dollar that this couple has not by any stretch of the imagination worked their problems out.

Is she out of your league? Why, hell yes. She sounds like a damn mess that you don't need to get involved with.

[harmonicon]

35. maybe you're right

I don't know.... I think there's something admirable to be found in forgiveness. Two of my best friends are married to one another, but had been dating off-and-on for nearly 10 years before tying the knot. They both did some super shitty things to the other person, including cheating, but in the end were able to work things out. I love them dearly and think they're perfect for each other, and am so glad that they were able to work things out. I'm sure they'll be together forever.

As for the girl in my town and me.... yeah, I sort of think that you're right about point #1, and I'm sure that you're right about point #2 - still, I don't know these people that well, so what the hell do I know? I just wish that I didn't have to sacrifice love, emotional stability, and happiness in the pursuit of what I love.

[tismyself]

40. You don't.

You don't have to sacrifice love, emotional stability, and happiness.

As best I can figure, there are three times/places where sacrifices work:

1. with a budget
2. with children
3. Lent

Other than that...

[harmonicon]

45. unfortunately, I do

I live in the UK on a visa. Unless I got married to someone in the next year and a half (which I wouldn't do), or found a super steady job wiling to sponsor me, I'm kicked out of the country. I moved here for my education, which was sort of crazy, but what is right for me. At the time, it wasn't as crazy, since my girlfriend was living in France.... now she lives in the US again, and isn't my girlfriend. Some things about how to be a normal, happy, human being completely escape me.

[Truthiness Inspector]

64. This post of yours said a lot

And not necessarily in a bad way, but about LIFE.

You are doing what you want to do, the women in your life are doing the same. Right now, that is travel and education, without every day restraints. Nothing wrong with that, but it is not conducive to a long-lasting relationship. I know first-hand.

Your "problem" (issue would be more appropriate), is that you are not ready to settle down, even though you think you are. You want to be ready, but you just aren't. It may take you years. And that is no judgment on you or your lady friends who are similarly exploring the world, just what in my experience is a fact.

"Normal" people don't trot around the globe to fulfill dreams and wishes, "normal" people settle down and live day to day life in whatever town or city. You and your lady friends have found excuses to avoid settling down, because your dreams are not yet met. Restless spirits. I do the same thing, so I recognize it in you.

My advice: think about when you are old and gray, and where you want to be. This is what I'm doing myself right now instead of flitting about the planet. Yeah, it's fun now, but we can't complain later, if we are dealt a hand that is not "normal."

[harmonicon]

79. I think you're exactly right

.... and it totally sucks.

I know that I'm not ready to settle down location-wise, but I thought I knew the person I wanted to spend the rest of my life with - it was just a few years away. I guess she didn't want to wait a few more years. It just hurts very much that forever with me wasn't worth a mere two years of just seeing me a few months out of the year. I'm not inventing things in my head either - she really said that she wanted to grow old with me.

Now I'm just bitter about things. I know that I'll never be rich, I'll never be famous, but there are things that I won't give up on, like doing what I want in life to be proud of myself. I'm also a hopeless romantic. These things don't go together well.

I also just don't know how to "date". I'm emotionally incapable of it. If the woman I'm with doesn't absolutely drive me crazy (in a good way) and make me always want to be near them, I'd rather be alone.

[Lil Missy]

46. Now I recall you and your recent breakup. I think you are being way to hard on yourself.

You are on the rebound right now, and that is an awful and godforsaken place to be. I've been there myself, and it really hurts! Dammit! For me, it was a time when the most innocent and innocuous gestures from other "potential" mates or dates seemed magnified a hundred times over.

I don't think anyone truly had any intention to try to mislead me or take advantage of my vulnerability at the time. I think they were just being friendly and compassionate with someone, me, who they knew was feeling a world of hurt at the time. No doubt they'd been through it themselves at some point in their lives.

Honestly, I don't think women get together to plot the demise of "nice guys". I've never once ever heard or been asked to participate in something like that. On the contrary, I know a lot of "nice guys", and the greatest majority of my female friends and family are married to nice guys that they absolutely adore.

And you need some time to heal before you can seriously contemplate moving on to another relationship. Me too. It is not fair to get involved with someone new when you are still wearing another heart on your sleeve.

I wish the best for you.

:pals:

[harmonicon]

48. thanks

being "single" for the first time in about 7 years is pretty fucked up. Is this why I almost never dated in college? I can't remember. I just thought it was because I read Kafka all the time and wore make up.

[FloridaJudy]

47. Sounds to me

Like during the break-up she was considering a fling with you, but now feels sheepish about it and is trying to tell you not to get your hopes up. Yeah, she's confused, and that relationship doesn't sound promising, but she was probably feeling thoroughly miserable and seeking reassurance that she's still attractive. Back off - a relationship between two people fresh from a rebound has potential for real disaster.

And that's what I'd probably tell her in our secret female meetings. And there's little smoke involved, though the smell of nail polish and hair spray could induce a sneezing fit.

[harmonicon]

49. please do tell her

I think that you're right, and that's how I read it too. However, I knew that I'm in no position to have any sort of relationship right now, even a "fling" - especially not with this girl, who is deserving of so much more - so I didn't push things. Now I feel that I might have lost any chance that I could have had with her in the future. It just sucks that I think this is someone that I'd like to know, but now really can't - I want to give her space, but I also want to see her. I know I'm only going to end up hurting myself even more, which totally sucks.... not that I haven't already, obviously.

I honestly do envy them, and it seriously pisses me off. Maybe after a month, I'm in the "why me?" stage of my own break up. I just wish that I could be happy again and get shit done other than drinking and smoking, which I've become really really super good at.

[Boojatta]

57. I stopped reading here:

I desperately wanted to comfort her, but I knew that if I tried to talk to her that I would just break down and start bawling about my own situation, and wouldn't help matters in the least.

What do you think of the original "Odd Couple" movie with Jack Lemon and Walter Matthau?

[harmonicon]

59. that it's my future?

[Guava Jelly]

61. I don't agree with this part

"a single broken hearted guy wanting to get to know a girl who's in a relationship is down right creepy"
Crushes can turn into great friendships.
Other then that. Nice guys don't always finish last.
Give it time..

[Bake]

76. Dood, you were an OCEAN away. Literally.

Suck it up. There's British Boo-tay to be chased and conquered!

Bake

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

83. One thing I've noticed is that women like to remind you they are with someone

One of my exes and I reconnected after a few years, and when I told her I have a new house and she should come see it, her first response was literally "Oh, I have a boyfriend now".

[Pale Blue Dot]

15. I'm a nice guy too. I don't understand why women don't like when I nicely stereotype them.

I mean, what the fuck is up? I know when they go to the bathroom they all talk about me. And then they dump me even thought I am the nicest, most caring guy on the planet who never did anything to deserve the horrible suffering that all women live to inflict on me.

I'm with you, brother. :hug:

[TZ]

16. .

:thumbsup:

[Pale Blue Dot]

19. Looks like you and I are going to be watching the playoffs from the sidelines this year.

You deserve it (because you're a woman :D), but me? I'm a champion! :cry:

On edit: Sorry about your Redskins losing to the Giants again tomorrow. Lots of teams are having that problem this year.

[harmonicon]

20. haha!

I got burned.

[redqueen]

21. ...

:yourock:

[astral]

17. Sounds like you've done a bit of an emotional rebound already

Chew on this for awhile: Lots of women are "just friends" with men. I don't think she's trying to mess with your head but the way you sound you should probably avoid her a bit until you get straightened out a little. I know how heartbreaking it is to be dumped. Long distance relationships can be iffy, and more than some people can take. It probably doesn't help right now that your being dumped is probably not a reflection on you, but on her inability to deal with the stress of keeping on with you long distance, people are only human.

[harmonicon]

23. yeah, I know

It just sort of sucks for me right now. I think I've gotten to the point where i don't expect to get back together with this woman who I'm madly in love with, but I would like to think that I'm not completely fucked for life, though all signs point to 'yes'. I don't want to see anyone else right now, but I don't like feeling that I'm second class, which is how I've been made to feel, and all for what? For being nice? For being caring? For thinking that human relationships take time to develop and that romance is real?

[Critters2]

18. And you asked me out when? nt

[harmonicon]

25. I like you!

However, I haven't lived in Illinois for 8 years. Also, you're a bit older than me, but that doesn't mean anything, seeing as I've got a serious (though unrealistic) crush on a woman who's about 15 years older than me.

Fine, we'll go get coffee on December 28th at the Unicorn Cafe in Evanston Illinois. Are you happy now?!

[Critters2]

43. Thanks. Still, I can hardly treat guys like crap if they don't even notice I exist.

And they-err, you--don't.

Oh, and I always take vacation the week between Christmas and New Year's. So, I'll be either in Iowa or Milwaukee--haven't decided which, yet. Thanks for the invite, though. :hi:

[harmonicon]

44. some other time, dear

:)

[tismyself]

22. If you think for one blinkin' minute

that organizations like the Illuminati, Skull and Bones, etc., run the world, you've got another think coming.

I'm telling you, it's the DAR.

All those silly little men's clubs are what the DAR ladies cooked up to get their husbands out from under their feet while they get the real work done.

[harmonicon]

26. oohh....

I never knew!! All this time, I thought it was Lizard people. Wives probably invented them too, huh?

[tismyself]

33. Who told?!?!?!

[JVS]

56. Tupperware parties are actually terrorist cells

[tismyself]

58. well by damn

What else are you going to put all the ashes in???

[Lydia Leftcoast]

24. Lesson 1: You cannot win a woman's love by being her confessor

Women use their FRIENDS as confessors and sources of advice. If she cries on your shoulder, it's because she sees you as a friend, not as a potential lover.

Very, very occasionally, such a relationship develops into love, but becoming a woman's confessor in order to get into her pants is a dishonest approach. "I'll be nice to this woman so that she'll love me."

It doesn't work. You have to be fun in some sense (and each person's sense of fun differs).

There's no accounting for chemistry.

Oh yes, and men return to bad relationships, too. I've known several who have rejected great woman to go back to the one who has broken their heart multiple times.

However, a lot of the Lounge men seem to think that only women indulge in this crazy-making behavior. Not true.

[harmonicon]

27. I know all of that

... and I think I've always avoided it, when possible. However, now, it's been 7 or 8 years since I've actually had to try to be attractive to a woman apart from a girlfriend in any way, so I'm sure that I'll be fucking things up for myself for years. By that time, I'll be a sad lonely man in my 40's - great.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. That'll be great timing

The forties are when women start wondering, "Why are all the good men married or gay?"

If you're not married in your forties, you can take your pick. :evilgrin:

[harmonicon]

32. Does this mean that Eve was flirting with me?

Ok, this is 1/2 joke, because this woman lives in another country and is 10 - 15 years older than me; but I met this incredible woman a few days ago that I seriously adore, and I think that she was flirting with me. However, I'm realistic enough to not start a relationship with that kind of age difference, and another long distance relationship is best avoided right now, for sure. Still, it would be nice to think that she digs me.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

36. I have no idea

If you're still hurting, you probably shouldn't get involved with anyone.

[harmonicon]

41. yeah, I know

I just liked the idea that an older successful woman could have an interest in me - it's an ego booster that I could use right now.

[tismyself]

37. this in from Mrs. Robinson

My last relationship was with a guy 15 years younger than me.

There were some odd moments to be sure. Mostly they involved things that dated us. To wit, he would say "I've been listening to that song my entire life" and I would think "jesus christ, I was screwing in the back seat of a Road Runner listening to Led Zeppelin on the 8 track" - things like that.

But mostly, with the two of us, for the time our relationship lasted, we had a space that transcended time and age. We really had a wonderful time.

What ended it was me. I knew he needed to move on and find someone closer to his own age, and who was in the same life stages as he was.

[Lilith Velkor]

50. "Who's Kurt Cobain?"

I'll never forget how weird it felt to hear a sweet young Goth lad ask me that.

But then, I still remember "Four Dead in Ohio" being a lullaby when I was a wee tyke. Life goes on, obladi, oblada.

[tismyself]

51. I asked the same question once.

My flight to Tampa out of Charlotte had been delayed almost 4 hours because of a storm. The gate was across the hall from the bar, which happily was open at 8 in the morning. So, I sat there and had quite a few vodka and orange juices.

I have no memory of getting on the plane, although somewhere along the way I picked up a copy of the Rolling Stone magazine. Kurt Cobain was on the cover. I garbled something to my seat mate about 'who the hell is Kurt Cobain' but seat mate was puking as the storm was still so bad.

[Forkboy]

29. Jeez, I just turned 41. Don't make being in my 40's sound like I was alive with Nero, would ya?

;)

[harmonicon]

34. sorry, buddy

Within a few scant hours, I'll be 30. I'm feeling a bit old these days. Especially since I'm at a university, surrounded by the young, vibrant, and beautiful people of this world.

[tismyself]

42. Helen Mirren is going to kick your ass for that.

[Pale Blue Dot]

38. So how similar are Barack Obama and FDR?

Since you're our living "witness to history."


















(I turn 41 in March, BTW.)

[Forkboy]

39. Oh, the stories I could tell!

:)

[lunatica]

53. Try older women

Not cougars!

Older women end up having a whole new found appreciation for the nice guys. It's like an epiphany. You may not like it now, but 'He who laughs last...." is true

[JVS]

54. Oh wow.

:popcorn:

[harmonicon]

60. the movie's over!

[JVS]

55. Go get yourself a full body massage and don't worry about it.

Once you are perfectly content without a woman, one will find you.

[NewJeffCT]

62. nice guys don't finish last, but boring guys often do

You need to be interesting and/or fun first in order to be attractive to women.

[harmonicon]

63. I'm about as interesting as they come...

at least to certain people. I'm not capable of fun, because I hate fun, but that's old news.....

Being attractive to women, I guess, isn't the problem. Being attractive to the right women at the right time is.

[Rhiannon12866]

65. Nice guys don't finish last with me...

Never have...

[rurallib]

66. Sure wish women didn't have a monopoly on vaginas.

[davsand]

67. Richard Pryor said something like that.

Something to the effect that women got half the money and all the pussy--they SHOULD be happy as hell...


I am old enough to remember when Pryor was doing stand up.

:shrug:


Laura

[Skittles]

68. I'VE HAD IT WITH MEN

LIKED IT TOO :7

[Lil Missy]

71. Skittles, you are incorrigible!

And that is something I like about you.

:D

[WCGreen]

69. There is a difference between being a nice guy and being wishy washy

Not to say that you are wishy washy...

But I found out over the years that if you are comfortable in your masculinity, that you don't have to continually pound on your chest to show you are the man, that the women that are worth getting to know a little better will see that you are a good person who is sure of himself. Then that particular woman who cathces your eye is more than likely willing to invest a little time to see who you really are.

I think women like confidence as much as they like a pretty face...

I use to be like that, unsure of myself and always waiting for the other shoe to drop and the party to suddenly be over.

Not any more.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

70. No thanks, I'll continue to jump into the deep end of the pool with my eyes wide open

As an English major, reading Kerouac's "On The Road" was a life-changing experience, particularly due to the following passage, which sums up my attitude about life, but especially my attitude toward women:

The only people for me are the mad ones, the ones mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing but burn, burn, burn like fabulous Roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody goes 'Awww!"

I enjoy spending my time around women who aren't afraid to be alive, who aren't looking for permission, and...in the midst of all of that...think that spending time with me is time well spent.

In short, I'd rather give it up for a woman who's not afraid to kick my ass if she thinks I need it than spend my time asking her to change the nice guys finish last rule.

Because, in reality, they do.

There's a simple rule for dealing with women (or men) that we think we need to change. It's called let them live their life and move on to someone you don't want to change.

:toast:

[HEyHEY]

72. this is why I spend my time like a frog hittin' lillypads.... it's just not worth it anymore

I only meet "cool" women who live out of town or will be leaving town soon. Anyone actually living in this city and i have an arrangement where we don't want anything to do with each other in a way that could be meaningful or longterm.

[Marrah_G]

74. Every nice guy I know is fixated on a self-centered, manipulative, spoiled brat

They never look twice at a nice girl who likes nice guys.

So it's your own damn faults.

[swag]

75. That kind of talk is sure to pull the dames.

[treestar]

77. Admit it, you don't like nice girls either

All the difficult, picky, demanding women I know have men - I'm a nice shy one and never got anyone interested. It seems we have to have not just looks, but style and a very outgoing personality - I've been "nice" all my life and was even good looking when young, but not real stylish and shy - that was killer - I always lost to the competition!

Saying you're nice is like admitting you're not good looking, too, so don't complain about that! Good luck!

[harmonicon]

78. ok, I'm not good looking too!

[Road Scholar]

80. Is it true that women gave men names so they could tell which

one belonges to whom? That seems a little unfair to me.:banghead:

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

81. They hold a convention every year

They deny it, but it's true, and they get up and warn others about keeping certain men down.

I know......I know........

[Road Scholar]

82. Elaine (Sienfield) said they meet in the ladies restroom and

decide these things.:shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

84. i am sure your niceness isnt really the problem. nt