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Which really came first; jazz or bluegrass

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Inchworm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 03:08 AM
Original message
Poll question: Which really came first; jazz or bluegrass
I see the influences of each other IN each other. I'm 'bout drunk though.

I do know particular instruments gathered long ago to create jazz.

Were particular instruments doing their own things on some farm somewhere at the same time?

Jazz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olOYynQ-_Hw

Bluegrass (they even call this contemporary Bluegrass)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwHXOwk3xNo

:hi:

and.. on that note.. I'll listen to these and fade to dreams.

:hug:
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Inchworm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 03:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. Gawd, she was like twelve!
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 03:57 AM
Response to Original message
2. jazz was first.
bluegrass is a certain style of folk that came after jazz. folk and country is older than jazz though.
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. How do you know?


People up in the hills may have been playing what we'd call bluegrass way before jazz.
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Except that they weren't. Guys like John Lomax were doing field recordings...
as early as the 1920s, and "hillbilly music" of the time had certain elements of bluegrass, but wasn't really what we'd consider bluegrass today.
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enigmatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. yep
:thumbsup:
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nomorenomore08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 04:00 AM
Response to Original message
3. Don't know, but most contemporary "country" music worth a damn is bluegrass anyway.
nt
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 05:42 AM
Response to Original message
4. Bluegrass came out of Irish, Scottish, and English folk music.
Jazz out of African folk music.

I'd say that they developed at the same time. There common point of intersection in their early stages was the blues, echoes of which you can still hear in roots singers like Ralph Stanley.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f60UEe2LuLw&feature=related
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. The banjo is an African instrument
How wierd is that.

Which came first?Hard to say.The roots of bg were around for a long time before jazz,imo.But jazz got named and hit the mainstrean first.Bluegrass did not get recognized/named as a genre till the fourties and remained a regional form of music for a long time after that.
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Many early jazz (or jass) bands featured a banjo where we would
use a guitar, as mainly a chord instrument comping behind a soloist, usually a trumpet, cornet or clarinet. Many of these bands used tuba as the bass. The banjo was pretty loud compared to guitars of the day, and as you said it came from Africa.

I think what is now called bluegrass was being played pretty much the same time, maybe now quite in its modern form - That really came into its own in the 1920's-30's, pretty recently.

mark
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Jazz is much different than the African folk music though...
Edited on Thu Feb-12-09 12:42 PM by redqueen
wouldn't you say?

IMO bluegrass in its rawest early form was very similar to the tunes sung in the British isles for hundreds of years... so I'd say bluegrass (though not exactly in the form we hear today).

IMO Bill Monroe didn't "invent" anything... he just changed it up a bit and they gave it a new name.

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BlueJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
6. I would say Jazz since Jazz is, in simple terms, simply holding a song up to the light ....
...and changing the various stuctures and melody of the tune,,,which has been going on for thousands of years,
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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Inetersting question, Inch. Here is what Wiki has to say
Jazz is a primarily American musical art form which originated at the beginning of the 20th century in African American communities in the Southern United States from a confluence of African and European music traditions. The style's West African pedigree is evident in its use of blue notes, improvisation, polyrhythms, syncopation, and the swung note.<1>

From its early development until the present, jazz has also incorporated music from 19th and 20th century American popular music.<2> The word jazz began as a West Coast slang term of uncertain derivation and was first used to refer to music in Chicago in about 1915; for the origin and history, see Jazz (word).

Jazz has, from its early 20th century inception, spawned a variety of subgenres, from New Orleans Dixieland dating from the early 1910s, big band-style swing from the 1930s and 1940s, bebop from the mid-1940s, a variety of Latin jazz fusions such as Afro-Cuban and Brazilian jazz from the 1950s and 1960s, jazz-rock fusion from the 1970s and late 1980s developments such as acid jazz, which blended jazz influences into funk and hip-hop. As the music has spread around the world it has drawn on local national and regional musical cultures, its aesthetics being adapted to its varied environments and giving rise to many distinctive styles.

more at link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz

Bluegrass as a style developed during the mid-1940s. Because of war rationing, recording was limited during that time, and it would be most accurate to say that bluegrass was played some time after World War II, but no earlier. As with any musical genre, no one person can claim to have "invented" it. Rather, bluegrass is an amalgam of old-time music, country, ragtime and jazz. Nevertheless, bluegrass's beginnings can be traced to one band. Today Bill Monroe is referred to as the "founding father" of bluegrass music; the bluegrass style was named for his band, the Blue Grass Boys, formed in 1939. The 1945 addition of banjo player Earl Scruggs, who played with a three-finger roll originally developed by Snuffy Jenkins, but now almost universally known as "Scruggs style", is considered the key moment in the development of this genre. (Jenkins, in interviews, has renounced his role as being the one who invented the three-finger roll, and has said he learned it from Rex Brooks and Smith Hammett in the 1920s.)

Monroe's 1946 to 1948 band, which featured Scruggs, singer-guitarist Lester Flatt, fiddler Chubby Wise and bassist Howard Watts, also known as "Cedric Rainwater,"—sometimes called "the original bluegrass band"—created the definitive sound and instrumental configuration that remains a model to this day. By some arguments, as long as the Blue Grass Boys were the only band playing this music, it was just their unique style; it could not be considered a musical style until other bands began performing in similar fashion. In 1947, the Stanley Brothers recorded the traditional song "Molly and Tenbrooks" in the Blue Grass Boys' style, and this could also be pointed to as the beginning of bluegrass as a style. As Ralph Stanley himself says about the origins of the genre:

"Oh, (Monroe) was the first. But it wasn't called bluegrass back then. It was just called old time mountain hillbilly music. When they started doing the bluegrass festivals in 1965, everybody got together and wanted to know what to call the show, y'know. It was decided that since Bill was the oldest man, and was from the Bluegrass state of Kentucky and he had the Blue Grass Boys, it would be called 'bluegrass.'"<2>

Bluegrass was generally used for dancing in the rural areas, a dancing style known as buckdancing, flat-footing, or clogging, but eventually spread to more urban areas and became more popular. Bluegrass is typically performed on acoustic, non-electric instruments, since the genre originated before widespread availability of household electricity. Electric instruments were frowned upon by conservative country music people, like the founder of the Grand Ole Opry, George D. Hay. In 1948, bluegrass emerged as a genre within the post-war, country music industry. This period of time is characterized as the golden era, or wellsprings of "traditional bluegrass."

more at link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluegrass_music


I am going with Jazz after reading these entries and the other replies to this thread. :) :hi:
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
10. +2 for the Tony Rice reference!
But he's not jazz ... he calls it "spacegrass." He can play either one with equal soul. The greatest acoustic guitarist in the world, bar none.

Bake
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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. wow. That is high praise. Tony Rice is excellent but,,,
"The greatest acoustic guitarist in the world, bar none."

That would be a thread all to itself, me thinks ;)
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. In that case, I shall start one!
:hi:

Bake
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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Did you? Where is it? I left for work? What happened --
link please :D
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
11. Jazz, no question. Bluegrass is a new form of music.
Bluegrass has only been around since the 1950s or so, invented by Bill Monroe and based on earlier folk music styles.

Jazz, on the other hand, had already been around for decades by then.
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LSdemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
16. So anyone have any other factual historical debates to resolve via DU Lounge poll?
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NOW tense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
18. Jazz grass
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