Did Paul Atreides have to be the Kwisatz Haderach in order to be the Lisan al-Gaib?

[MrCoffee]

Were they interrelated, seeing as how the Lisan al-Gaib was shaped by the Missonaria Protectiva?

[jakefrep]

1. OMG WTF?

:shrug:

That's not covered in the Quiller Memorandum?

[flvegan]

2. Your mother likes the Missonaria position, Trebek.

[no name no slogan]

9. BUCK FUTTER

[Aristus]

3. I don't know, but I always thought that The Shadout Mapes sounded like a baseball pitch.

"Ryan steps up, shakes off the signal......he nods...there's the wind-up, the pitch!...and it's a shadout mapes! Catches Williams blind-side for the third strike!...Ryan is really on FIRE today, folks!..."

B-) :+:crazy:

[Dr. Strange]

4. I'm going to say no.

I think the Missonaria Protectiva was all about protecting the Bene Gesserit from savages--nothing to do with the Kwisatz Haderach.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it like melange on a peanut butter sandwich.

[MrCoffee]

8. What the MP was about and what it actually did on Arrakis are two very different things

I agree about what it started out as, but it diverged pretty far afield when Kynes and the Fremen ran with it. I don't know how far Paul and Jessica would have gotten trying to play the MP/Lisan al-Gaib card with the Fremen without Paul having the juice to back it up.

[sarge43]

24. That and keeping an eye on the spice and to a point protecting it.

The BG probably figured out long before anyone else "he who can destroy the spice controls the spice" and the Freeman could. Also, they were no doubt aware of Freeman population size and potential as fearsome warriors. So, better to have them as allies or at least not hostile than enemies.

[jobycom]

5. Jesus is the answer. nt

[Ikonoklast]

6. Paul was a whiny punk with a Mommy problem.

Waaahhhh. I have to be the Savior of the Universe.

Waaaaaaaaahhhhhh. My sister hates me.

[Deep13]

12. I pegged him more of a wants-to-be-like-dad kid...

...who had abandoment issues after the Duke was murdered.

[Ikonoklast]

19. I say Paul let the old man get it.

He knew how the game was played and what the score was, he just figured he'd let someone else do the dirty work for him.

That way he got Mom all to himself, the pev.

[redqueen]

7. Go away...

'batin.

[Richardo]

17. !!

:rofl:


(So are the Dune fans, in their own way.) ;-)

[Deep13]

10. He had to be something to be accepted as such.

That Kwisatz thing was a real condition that was the result of the BJ selective breeding program. The LaG was a legendary person that the Fremen believed would deliver them. So, basically, yeah, for Paul to pull off the LaG thing, he had to be the KH first. Except he wasn't really the KH. He explained to his mother in the desert that he was something that the BJ did not expect. So he was like Super KH.

[MrCoffee]

13. They're all interrelated, though...

The Bene Gesserit put the legend on Arrakis through the Missionaria, albeit for a different reason than to help Paul specifically. The Lisan al-Gaib wasn't just a localized legend, the prophecy was part of the standard "message" of the MP. The legend became something much more powerful due to the specific conditions on Arrrakis.

I think Paul's reference to being something the Bene Gesserit didn't expect was more in that the BG didn't fully understand what the KH was about.

[Deep13]

18. Yeah, that's true. nt

[SidneyCarton]

15. Exactly, he was the super KH because he came too early and could not be controlled.

The Bene Gesserit in their arrogance, underestimated the very power of the prophecies which they tampered with.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

11. I love Dune Geek questions on DU........

since I am one.

I suppose Paul could have led the Fremen to freedom without being the Kwisatz Haderach. But, you'd have to ask: Did the BG have Paul in mind when they laid all the MP legends on the Fremen? I would think not as Paul's birth was (apparently) a complete surprise to RM Gaius-Mohiam, and the Sisterhood in general.


Just my $0.02

[SidneyCarton]

14. If I remember correctly

The Missionaria Protectiva utilized the myths of the people they came into contact with in order to protect the sisterhood. Hence the Lisan-al-Gaib was already a Fremen belief, it was just turned and shaped toward the Bene Gesserit purposes. Paul probably had to be the Kwisatz Haderach in order to be the Lisan-al-Gaib because he needed the supernatural abilities to be recognized as such by the Fremen.

Ok, I have now totally outed myself as a Dune nerd, I'll just slink back into my bedroom with the entire collected works of Tolkein. If anyone calls for me, I'm unavailable as I will be retranslating the Silmarillion into Sindarin (it just sounds better in the original)

[Rabrrrrrr]

16. I don't know. All I know is that there should have been more furry Navigator sex.

[SCantiGOP]

20. this thread

is making me thirsty.

[Deep13]

21. Poor still suit discipline. nt

[Bake]

22. Whatever he's smokin'.

Want.

Bake

[sarge43]

23. Ooo, Dune geekery.

The KH would be the L al G if he appeared on Arrakas, but an L al G wouldn't have to be the KH. The L al G was a Zensunni prophet, believed in long before the BG MP shaped Freeman thought. The KH didn't necessarily have to have anything to do with Dune. Paul's genetic KH potential was just one of many developed by the BG. There was nothing pre determined about him becoming the KH. Had he not gone to Arrakas, unlikely he would have.

[tigereye]

25. that's funny, we just reread Dune....

good question...