Who's the better pitcher? Nolan Ryan or Greg Maddux?

[charlie and algernon]

Wins
MADDUX - 355
ryan - 324

Ks
RYAN - 5714
maddux - 3371

ERA
MADDUX - 3.16
ryan - 3.19

Gold Gloves
MADDUX - 18
ryan - 0

Cy Youngs
MADDUX - 4
ryan - 0

[madinmaryland]

1. Have you thought about posting this in the sports forum?

I'm sure there will be some over there that will claim they are roiders.

:shrug:

[charlie and algernon]

2. that's why i DIDN'T post it there

besdes, most of the sports people are here in the lounge.

[flvegan]

3. How many No-Hitters for Maddux?

Ryan also had to learn to be a pitcher, not a hurler.

Maddux also got a lot of good backup during his Braves years, hence some of that low ERA.

Ryan, easy.

[Richardo]

4. Bingo

Ryan: 7 no hitters, 12 one hitters. (I saw one of the 1-hitters when he was with the Angels.)

+ > 5,700 Ks

[flvegan]

7. Dude, you were there to see it?

I'm a BIG time Ryan fan (despite his politics).

The Ks show how good he was. A low ERA means you have really good defense behind you, too.

[charlie and algernon]

9. but look at all those gold gloves

a lot of that good defense was himself, that's gotta count for something.

[flvegan]

13. Impressive, yes.

But, the Gold Glove is awarded to a person (one per league) at each position. I'm not denying that Maddux is a great fielder, but I don't give a pitcher that much defensive cred. Based on numbers, one could argue that Ryan was too busy striking folks out to have them hit the ball back to them.

Plus, Maddux was willing to go after the ball. Ryan, maybe not. Additionally, Ryan was up against the likes of who, Bob Gibson, Niekro at the time?

Don't get me wrong, I love Maddux. I enjoyed the Maddux/Glavine years a great deal.

[charlie and algernon]

17. good point

I actually think they are both fairly equal. Both great in their own ways, Maddux is an absolute lock to join Ryan in the HoF. You are right in that Ryan went against better pitchers, the average ERA was lower during Ryan's years and than in Maddux's, which goes to explain Ryan's lack of Cy Youngs.

[flvegan]

18. Another thing to keep in mind, Maddux joined MLB during a time

when pitchers started putting in less time (innings pitched). Maddux got a lot of starts, but less than (I think) half the number of complete games. Pitchers through Ryan's era pitched until the arm was jelly, not just until the 4th or 5th to get to the set up and then the reliever. It's a strategy that I don't fault Maddux for, it's just the game.

Maddux will be in the HOF one day, deservedly so. I wish he was better than Ryan. I have 50 or so of Maddux' rookie card, and if that value hit Ryan's best, they'd buy me a house.

[Richardo]

10. Yeah, Anaheim Stadium - Don't remember the year, I think it was against Boston

I'm so lucky I grew up in a baseball family in a two-league market (SoCal) in the 60s and 70s - got to go to see Ryan, Clemente, Stargell, Rose, Carlton, Aaron, Drysdale, Mays, McCovey, Gwynne, Yaz, Maz, Carew, tons of legends. I appreciate it now, I can tell ya.

[charlie and algernon]

11. lucky bastard

I'm officially jealous

[jobycom]

20. I saw a one hitter when he was with the Rangers. 15 strikeouts, I think.

The one hit was early, so there wasn't any suspense, but he was on fire that game.

And of course I watched just about every other game he pitched on TV. He had a baseball charisma like no other pitcher. I remember being at bars and restaurants in Dallas where they'd have a game on. All conversation would stop when Ryan was pitching, and it would start when the Rangers--the home team--was on offense. No one cared about the offense, they just watched Ryan pitch. One time when he took a no-hitter into the late innings, I remember the whole restaurant just stopped when he was pitching. Servers would stand at their table in silence until he threw, then they'd take an order or whatever they were doing, and they'd just stand there for the next pitch. This wasn't a bar, it was a regular restaurant, but everyone hung on every pitch. When he lost the no-no late in game, the whole place groaned, and then it got back to normal. The only other baseball games I remember like that were during McGwire's home run chase.

Half my favorite baseball memories involve Ryan. I haven't enjoyed the game nearly as much since he retired, though that's not all because of him. Baseball got screwy around that time.

[MrSlayer]

5. Maddux was finesse, Ryan was power.

Maddux had much better control and was a better overall complete pitcher. Ryan was intimidating as hell but was wild at times.

[jobycom]

19. Ryan had great control, and Maddux got one of the biggest strike zones ever.

Not taking anything away from Maddux, but he got the benefit of the doubt a lot. If Ryan got as wide a strike zone as Maddux most of his career, he'd have had fewer walks. Then again, Ryan threw fastballs and curveballs, so there wasn't a lot of nibbling on the edges. He was down the center or way off vertically a lot of the time. Maddux pitched the edges. He knew what he could do, what they would give him, and used it. Smartest damn pitcher, if not the smartest damn MLBer, ever.

Ryan was one of the best curveball pitchers ever in the game, but his fastball was beyond belief, so that's what people remember. When he developed his circle changeup, he was just unhittable. People act like he just hurled 102 mph fastballs down the center his entire career, but that's not true. His no-hitters, especially later, relied on all three pitches. There were times when his fastball wasn't working that he shut down batters with his curve, and used the fastball just to set it up.

Maddux outsmarted everyone, even the umpires. He had so many pitches you couldn't discern a pattern, and some of his pitches mimicked other pitches, so sometimes you couldn't tell until you swung what the ball was going to do. I think he even fooled the umpires, who called a strike because they expected the ball to break, or not to break, and just saw what they expected. Not saying that was the main part of his success, but everyone knew he got some of the clay along with the plate, so they swung at pitches they may have let go on another pitcher.

And Maddux just had better defense when he played. Some of Ryan's teams couldn't have handled all the grounders Maddux created. When Kevin Brown played for the Rangers he wasn't as effective as later in his career because his team, especially his short stop, couldn't handle the ball as well.

All things being equal, Ryan was better. But on a good team with a good defense, Maddux was probably more valuable, whereas on a poor fielding team, Ryan was better. Just my observations.

[MrSlayer]

21. Well Ryan had 2795 walks compared to Maddux's 999.

That wasn't all phantom strikezone, Maddux just had better control. Having such a repertoire of pitches only reinforces that fact. He was also a far superior fielder. Ryan was great, no doubt about it but Maddux was better all around. And really, you don't think Ryan got the benefit of the doubt from the umps? Certainly he did, all great players get some leeway.

Maddux also had four Cy Young awards, Ryan had zero Cy Youngs (came in 2nd once and 3rd twice). Both were 8 time All-Stars.

Neither of them were all that impressive in the playoffs.

They are pretty even, I just give Maddux a slight edge. Less walks, better defense.

In a one game series I'd take Steve Carlton.

[jobycom]

28. I don't know. My impression is that Maddux was gifted a lot of outs

and that if Ryan or just about anyone else was given his strike zone they'd cut their walks in half. I mean, every time I watched the Braves, a whole lot of his strikes weren't even close. I remember ESPN joking about it a lot.

For a more serious counter to the walks issue, Maddux gave up 800 more hits in four fewer years than Ryan (4726 in 23 years, to 3923 in 27). Ryan's hits per IP were .73, Maddux's .94. Their individual styles netted them almost identical ERAs. Both used what they could with the situations they had to get just about the same result. Most of the rest--wins, playoffs, all that stuff--depend on the team more than the pitcher.

I still say if Maddux had spent his career with the Rangers and Ryan with a serious team, Ryan would have more wins and Maddux wouldn't have played as well. That's why I give Ryan the edge. Not that there's any way to test that. And not that any decent pitcher would spend a career with the Rangers.

[MrSlayer]

32. Touché

A draw then?

The hypotheticals you present are certainly reasonable but we can only go by what actually happened.

[rurallib]

35. In a one game series I'd take Bob Gibson, maybe Koufax

Gibson was, shall we say, super competitive.

[MrSlayer]

37. Gibson was insane.

You can't play the game like a man now though. Gibson would knock one guy down and then get thrown out with the way it is today. Baseball used to be a much nastier sport.

[madinmaryland]

6. What about Walter Johnson and Cy Young?

:shrug:

AT least there were no roids involved.

[Tektonik]

8. Maddux

He was sooo filthy in his prime. I never got to watch Ryan, but I'd take Maddux' numbers over Ryan's

[nomorenomore08]

12. How the hell did Ryan never win a Cy Young?

It can't only be that he played for shitty teams - Tim Lincecum of the Giants won just last year.

And for the record I'd give Ryan the edge, just barely, #1 because of his ridiculous strikeout total that will probably never be matched, and #2 because he managed 324 wins and a 3.19 ERA while playing for the aforementioned shitty teams. Though if Maddux could have hung on a few more years - he was only 42 in his last season, whereas Ryan was 46 - he might have hit that fabled 400-win total, and I say that would've made him better than Ryan hands down.

[flvegan]

15. Look who won them in his league during his tenure.

Most of those guys won 20+ games (something Ryan only did 2 or 3 times, like Maddux) with an ERA in the 1.something or very low 2.something ranges. He played for crappy teams. I think that's all there is.

[Ohio Joe]

14. While they are both great pitchers....

Ryan was the better one.

[sasquatch]

16. Ryan wasn't known for choking in the clutch though

Maddox always choked in the clutch.

[MrSlayer]

23. In fairness you have to get to the post season to choke.

Ryan got there 4 times in 27 years and didn't fare so well.

Maddux got there 13 times in 23 years. He also didn't fare so well.

Both have one ring.

Nice sig pic.

[jobycom]

25. You have to have a team to get you there, and a team that doesn't choke when they are there.

Ryan didn't have the former very often, and Maddux didn't have the latter very often.

[sasquatch]

26. Thanks, I had to copy it when I saw it

:hi:

[JeffR]

22. Bob Gibson.

Sorry for dodging your question, but Bob Gibson is my answer to any question about pitchers.

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

31. Bob Gibson could scare the hair off a gorilla.

He looked like he was falling out of a tree, had a completely incomprehensible motion and threw more than 100 mph with a VERY bad attitude. Back out of the box or die. Gibson did not face adversaries, only enemies. I can't imagine that batters were more scared of any other pitcher of the era. Koufax wanted to embarrass you. Gibson wanted to kill you.

[Lethe]

24. Catfish Hunter

I went to Nolan Ryan's supposed 300 win game.

The Ranger won, but it went into extra innings and the relief pitcher actually pitched more games than Ryan did, so he got the win.

[EastTennesseeDem]

27. When Ryan was on, boy was he on

But he could lose control. I'll take Maddux's substance over Ryan's style anyday.

Maddux: 335-227 (.655), 3.16 ERA
Ryan: 324-292 (.526), 3.19 ERA

[Mojambo]

29. When it's close I tend to favor the guy who misses more bats.

I'd go with Ryan.

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

30. Close call

but Maddux. Maddux was a better money pitcher when the chips were down. And he spent a lot of his career pitching when the chips were down with those incredible 1990s Braves teams. Ryan pitched for show, Maddux pitched for dough and should have at least three WS rings. Too bad the Braves never managed to find a closer (and how can you fuck THAT up for so long??!!) .

Christ, they put Charlie Liebrandt out against Puckett in 1991, when Kirby was probably the best player in baseball. The Twins had a young and overpowering Rick Aguilera as a closer, who threw an unhittable 90+ spiltter. Jack Morris was gonna come out of that game when you put a fucking toe tag on him and not before. Liebrandt was an out-of-gas 40 year old starter. He gave it his best, but Puckett had killed him over the years when he was a KC Royal. Fielding counts too, at this level. The Braves were never a great fielding team. The Twins have ALWAYS were been able to catch the ball in the Kelly days and complete a play; that '91 team caught EVERYTHING.

Greatest World Series EVER! Even Peter Gammons agrees and he's a Red Sox fan!

KitchenWitch, feel free to amplify! I luvs me some old school Twins stories!

PB

[ProfessorGAC]

33. I Consider Them Near Equals

Totally different styles, but near equals. Remember that Ryan is the only pitcher in history to lead a league in ERA yet have a losing record, because his team was so bad. And, it happened to him TWICE!

So, his wins should be higher, his losses should be lower, and he should have won at least one Cy Young. The fact that he has NONE, is a travesty.

Now, that's not a knock on Maddux. As someone who almost certainly didn't do 'roids during that era, i think he's the best in the last 20 years, with no exceptions.

Just that i don't think Ryan's accomplishments or talents should ever be minimized.
GAC

[tekisui]

34. Greg Maddux, the Wizard.

Ryan overpowered. Maddux painted.

I love watching Maddux place the ball exactly where he wanted it, and make the greatest hitters look stupid. Not by blowing it past them, but by freezing them, or making them swing at bad pitches.

Maddux is the best of my lifettime, without doubt.

[nickgutierrez]

36. Definitely Maddux.

His career ERA is .03 lower than Ryan's despite his playing in league environments over half a run higher than when Ryan played.

Maddux League ERA: 4.16
Maddux Career ERA: 3.16

Ryan League ERA: 3.56
Ryan Career ERA: 3.19

Maddux also had a much lower WHIP (1.14 vs. 1.25) in his career, meaning that he was much, much better at keeping runners off the basepaths. Then there are all the Cy Young Awards, the Gold Gloves, and the higher number of wins, as contextual as that stat is. The numbers pretty clearly favor Maddux, I think.

[never cry wolf]

38. I agree, check out baseball reference dot com

Not to minimize either, they are both amongst the greatest of all time, good points made by all here. they are different styles and not to say Ryan was strictly a thrower, but he had a much more gifted arm than Maddux, Maddux HAD to be a better "pitcher." Here is the baseballreference.com career hall of fame standard summary summary:

Ryan: http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/ryanno01.shtml

Black Ink: Pitching - 84 (11) (Average HOFer ≈ 40)
Gray Ink: Pitching - 251 (19) (Average HOFer ≈ 185)
HOF Standards: Pitching - 55.0 (27) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor: Pitching - 257.5 (9) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.

Maddux: http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/maddugr01.shtml

Black Ink: Pitching - 87 (10) (Average HOFer ≈ 40)
Gray Ink: Pitching - 333 (6) (Average HOFer ≈ 185)
HOF Standards: Pitching - 70.0 (7) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor: Pitching - 256.0 (11) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.

[leftofthedial]

39. Maddux was the better pitcher,

but Ryan was the better power pitcher.

two different things.

[SoxFan]

40. Maddux. Ryan is vastly overrated.

Maddux is arguably the best pitcher of his era, although you can make a good case for Pedro Martinez and Roger Clemens as well.

Ryan is undoubtedly not the best of his cohort. Tom Seaver, Jim Palmer, and Steve Carlton were definitely better. Ryan falls into the second group with Fergie Jenkins and Catfish Hunter.