PETA video shows Ringling Bros. circus handlers beating elephants

[Roon]

The world-famous Ringling Bros. circus faces fresh accusations of animal abuse today after undercover videos show handlers beating elephants before they enter the ring.

The tape, made by a man who posed as a stagehand for six months, is likely to stir outrage and give animal rights activists new ammunition in their campaign against the circus that bills itself "The Greatest Show on Earth."


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2009/07/22/2009-07-22_peta_video_shows_ringing_bros_handlers_beating_elephants.html

[Shell Beau]

1. I just can't watch it.

Anyone who beats animals is disgusting.

[Roon]

2. I agree

I couldn't bring myself to watch it either, but I wanted to get the story out.

[DarkTirade]

22. These aren't just animals... they're highly intelligent animals.

:\

[Shell Beau]

23. They are very intelligent. I have always loved elephants.

They are one of my favorite animals. They are very much like humans in a lot of ways.

[Heidi]

3. I totally DON'T do circuses or zoos.

I don't believe other animals exist any more for our amusement than we exist for theirs. And I believe it's creepy to watch animals in a zoo through two-way glass. I understand zoos' marketing angle that they're promoting education about and awareness of other animals, but if that were true, it could be accomplished via one-way glass and the animals wouldn't feel watched or harrassed.

[Zomby Woof]

4. The San Diego Zoo

...and some others have gotten good at recreating most species' natural habitats. No glass, no bars, no sense of confinement.

Sad fact is, many of the species they have are safer in the zoo than they would be in their habitats back in Africa or Asia, where poaching is rampant. Especially for tigers and elephants.

Then there are the shrinking rain forests and the slash-and-burn farming techniques which are eroding their habitats.

As for the circus, that is just wretched. I enjoyed the one I went to as a kid, but back then in the early 70's there wasn't as much awareness as what went on behind the scenes.

So in effect, an elephant at the San Diego Zoo would be safer and treated more humanely than one in the circus or back in Asia or Africa.

[Heidi]

5. I've been there. I loved the San Diego zoo.

However, since then, I've come to believe I have absolutely no right to interlope in the even faux natural environment of other animals. I do not believe that preserving them necessarily means exposing them to the noise, prying stares, smells and other stimuli that humans bring. I believe vulnerable and endangered animals can be treated humanely and kept safe without us gawking at them in disrespectful, interloping ways. (For example, I'd be okay with one-way, soundproof glass.)

Just my weird thing, I guess. :shrug:

[Zomby Woof]

10. I completely get where you are coming from

Which is one reason I said it was a "sad fact". I would prefer ANY animal be in their most natural of habitats. And many zoos have a lot to answer for. There are certainly handlers who aren't any better than those in the circuses - and they deserve whatever condemnation or exposure as can be granted. Even the SD Zoo was a caged jailhouse for animals at one time (something else I recall from early childhood).

I do give zoos credit for opening my eyes to habitat destruction and human encroachment at a fairly early age. The better ones make a point of educating their patrons on those matters. Volunteer docents and the like, who share our love of animals and their welfare.

All that aside, I think we should fight like hell to get back, and preserve, what was taken from them - and not just rely on better zoos as the Be-All Solution. I think a balance is attainable. Hopefully, the most humane and least-intruding kind.

But yeah, I get where you are coming from.

[Heidi]

11. I :heart: the crap outta you, ZW.

Where my coffee, bubba? :rofl:

:hug:

[Zomby Woof]

13. Got yer coffee right here, Heidiriffic!

:donut: :hug:

I suppose we broke Lounge rules by having a mild, civil disagreement, with some partial common ground achieved. x(

[Heidi]

14. Yeah, imagine that! a civil disagreement!

:rofl:

:* to you and Nini! :hug:

[EndersDame]

48. The graceful leopard and the Fat ass Tourist/rednecks and snotnosed kids

I just kept thinking what must be going through his mind when there were these fat assed redneck tourists at the zoo and their annoying snot nosed kids making dumb jokes and borderline taunting the leopard and shoving their fat faces in the plexi glass

[TZ]

6. Don't forget that there are species that exist only in zoos now

I'd rather have them in zoos than gone. And zoos do a HELL of a lot for endangered species. They've saved and put back in the wild in larger numbers multiple species (see the National Zoo's rehab of the Golden Lion Tamarin for instance).
IMHO, as a scientist who has seen the fine science behind some of these places, being anti-zoo is pretty anti-environmental.

[Heidi]

8. I didn't argue against humans observing animals in unintrusive ways.

But saving them does not entitle us to gawk unimpeded at them, or have our bratty kids pound on the glass, or any of the other shitty things I've seen humans do in zoos ALL OVER THE WORLD. :hi:

[Zomby Woof]

12. I think those bratty kids should be caged

Just for one day - and allow monkeys to fling their poop at them. :D

[Heidi]

16. Or maybe it's the parents who should be confined

and leered at for a day or two. Little kids takes their cues about what's right and wrong from the world around them, and I find it much easier to tolerate bratty kids than self-absorbed, oblivious adults. :yoiks:

[Zomby Woof]

18. True true

Does that mean I get to fling poo at the parents? :evilgrin:

[tigereye]

26. well said

Our local zoo here has tried very hard to create as natural an environment as possible for the animals, and children (and others) seeing endangered and other non-native species could well encourage them to protect them and endangered habitat. I also think the research and awareness that responsible zoos promote benefits all of us.


It's a long way from the cold and sterile cages/environment that zoos had in the past.

[flvegan]

7. Another shitty industry I'd like to see ended.

This is SOP, as well. Not an isolated incident, which is what the apologists would have folks believe.

[Heidi]

9. Thank you.

A million times. :thumbsup:

[BarenakedLady]

15. It's not the first time.

:(

[Obama2012]

17. I'm not surprised

I don't know why anybody patronizes them anymore. It's no secret that it's incredibly cruel and stressful to the animals.

[ThomCat]

19. I really encourage people to avoid circuises.

How often do these exposes have to come out before people understand that training animals to perform these elaborate tricks is cruel and inhumane, and the methods used to train them are often brutal. :(

[mitchum]

20. I applaud PETA for this action

[Danger Mouse]

21. I have to hand it to PETA...

though they do some questionable things, they also do a lot of good.

[JanMichael]

24. what do they do that is "questionable?"

They might do things that YOU consider distasteful, but sometimes shocking the crap out of people is the only way to get a message across.

[Shell Beau]

25. They definitely do some good, but they also do the opposite.

Not intentionally I am sure, but they turn so many people off that a lot of people refuse to give them any legitimacy.

[Danger Mouse]

28. Exactly. The example I gave was the 'meat = the holocaust' ad.

[Danger Mouse]

27. Did I say distasteful? No.

I said questionable. In this case, I mean that they do things that are counterproductive.
Like encouraging people to call fish 'sea kittens.' People find that silly. Or comparing eating meat to the holocaust. People find that deeply offensive. It doesn't help their message. It makes them look ridiculous and makes people hostile towards them. Generating controversy is fine, but don't do it in a way that is counterproductive to your cause.
I think what they are BEST at is this kind of undercover thing. It actually gets things done to help animals, and greatly raises awareness of these abuses.

[Orrex]

29. Well, they euthed a couple thousand animals, for starters

But in the effort to end animal acts in circuses, PETA is a champion to be admired.

[flvegan]

30. So any open intake shelter or shelter of last resort is "questionable" because

they are burdened with the task of euthanizing a number of the 5 million surplus pets? PETA's sheltering efforts have always been of the last resort variety, and they provide a humane alternative to a death by some drunkard with a .22 or the hell of a gas chamber.

I guess I'm "questionable" because I volunteered thousands of hours for an open intake shelter, therefore obviously helping them in their devil's work.

I love it when folks criticize shit they don't know anything about.

[Orrex]

31. That's not why you're questionable at all

I understand plenty, and to hear PETA tell it, the deliberate killing of any animal is nothing less than capital murder. Except when they do it, and then it's a justifiable mercy killing.

And their bullshit about equating poultry deaths to the Holocaust is idiocy.

[flvegan]

34. No

you said that them euthanizing a couple thousand animals was questionable.

If the original point had been made that their Holocaust campaign was questionable, I doubt anyone would bat an eye.

[Orrex]

35. Then I repeat: their euthanizing of a couple thousand animals was questionable

And their Holocaust campaign was idiocy.

[flvegan]

36. So then

my original response to you was dead on.

Good to know.

[Orrex]

37. Well, it all depends

Regarding those shelters for which you volunteered: did they spend millions on shock-and-horror campaigns while decrying every deliberate killing of an animal? And did they then turn around and quietly euthanize thousands of animals?

Or did they do the best that they were able to do with the resources at their disposal without the condemnation or hypocrisy?


If the former, then I suppose your response was dead on.

If the latter, then your response had nothing to do with what I posted.

[flvegan]

38. Can't even see those goalposts anymore.

PETA has always supported the actions taken by responsible open intake shelters that have the unfortunate burden of putting domestic animals down. Sooooo, you're incorrect about them "decrying every deliberate killing of an animal" which tanks your entire argument.

PETA has also never "quietly" euthanized the animals that they've had to. Most folks never looked for that fact and it wasn't even an anti-PETA talking point until right-wing shit tanks like the Center for Consumer Freedom started screaming about it.

So then again, dead on.

[Orrex]

40. Nope, they're right where I left them

It's clear that you're on board with PETA, and I guess that's fine, as far as it goes. What I see as their bullshit and hypocrisy, you see as part of their noble fight to kill animals selectively when they deem it justified. That's cool too, I guess. If nothing else, it means that you and I probably won't run into each other at the circus.


But I heard about the euthing right on the front page of DU.

[enigmatic]

32. I can't watch this

It makes me sick to even think about how they treated the elephants, and it's why I'll never go see any circus w/ performing animals.

[Kali]

33. It sure looks like a lot of gratuitous hitting.

On the other hand peta has little credibility with me. The article mentioned many inspections so I assume the animals aren't being severely wounded and I know they have fairly tough hides. So while some of the handlers seemed aggressive I have never been around elephants and have NO CLUE about their body language or behavior. If they were cattle, horses, dogs, or cats I could tell you if the animal was about to step out of line and might need a preemptive reprimand/command.

Since peta is obviously going to cherry pick the worst they can find, and since I don't know anything about elephants and since the hitting didn't seem to really bother the animals all that much I'm going to guess there is a middle ground. Some of the handlers are dicks and peta is full of shit.

There will hopefully be some raised awareness as opposed to more security and hiding and so it goes...

[Obama2012]

44. Probably the best place to stop the abuse is to ban animals from circuses

Elephants are too intelligent to be tortured the way they are in circuses.

[Kali]

45. except I have heard the same thing said about horses and KNOW that is bullshit

so since I DON'T know much about daily life and working with elephants, I question the presumption that performing = torture.

Some animals seem to like and need to have jobs, some seem to be natural performers and seek out attention from audiences. I don't honestly know whether elephants are like that, but have no reason to assume they don't.

Are they all subject to abuse in all circuses? I haven't even accepted the premise that the ones in the video are being all that abused (although as I said it DOES look like there is some line-crossing in the particular few minutes chosen by peta to publicize the issue)

[Obama2012]

46. So you think they may theoretically be happy being kept in small pens, with leg shackles, whipped...

so they can put on a show for people?

Wow.

[Kali]

47. to quote myself, since you seemed to miss it...

"so since I DON'T know much about daily life and working with elephants, I question the presumption that performing = torture."

Small pens and leg shackles (in horse culture hobbles are used) do not necessarily = "unhappiness" - even whipping may have its place. It would obviously depend on timing and circumstances. I will repeat - I don't know how elephants themselves respond to these things, or how much of it really goes on, but I do know how some other animals react and I know that peta and other animal rights advocates have spouted utter bullshit about the things I AM familiar with, hence my skepticism about this.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dropkickpa]

41. much as I dislike PETA, I loathe circuses with animal acts more

I've heard people defend ringling bros, and I constantly have to tell them than anyone with an animal is not treating their animals right. I'm by no means an animal right activist, but circuses have always disturbed me on a very deep level.

The Pittsburgh Zoos bull elephant is a former circus elephant and it has taken Jackson years to overcome the abuse he suffered. He is now a happy well adjusted elephant (and the best breeder in the country living it up at a huge sanctuary). Our head elephant keeper, Willie Theissen, is a wonder with these gentle and extremely intelligent lovelies and he has a deep understanding of their natural behavior and needs. I've seen him interacting behind the scenes with them countless times and there is no similarities between him and the video. He is a part of the herd, and the mutual *respect* and care he has shows through in every action and interaction that he and the elephants have.

[madrchsod]

42. there`s no reason to treat animals in that way

it seems the "handlers" are just sadists.

thumbs up for peta doing a good job on this.

[Scout]

43. i can't watch the video, but i hope those handlers rot in hell

animal abusers are right next to child abusers on my "special place in hell for them" list

:grr: