Anyone watched "Mad men" yesterday? (spoiler)

[question everything]

At some point Dan ran into the other guy who was waiting with him while their wives were in labor. The other guy was wheeling a woman yet the two of them did not even nod at each other.

One thing I've noticed is how cold they are to each other and to the kids. Neither of the Drappers shows any affection, a hug, toward either of the kids.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

1. yeah, I noticed that. I thought Don turned to nod to the guy but the

guy just kept on going....

and the coldness to the kids...and now the baby.

and I wonder if Peggy will leave the firm.

[question everything]

3. If the firm is now counting paper clips

and she is being offered a better position. But it appears that he wants both her and Peter Campbell who, while first refused to even consider jumping ship, has now got his ears clipped.

It used to be that this was the way to move up - change firms, change locations, until we became one homogenized society all over the country.

[Orangepeel]

2. the scene with Don and Sally in the kitchen was kind of sweet

Did the prison guard's wife have a baby with her? I wondered if it was supposed to have died and that's why the guy wouldn't acknowledge Don.

[question everything]

5. You could be right. I have not noticed of whether she had a baby with

her. And, yet, from his point of view, he'd rather lose a baby than his wife..

Yes, I think that Sally is trying to force her parents to be... parents, especially after the attention that she got from her grandpa. I hope that the teacher is not going after Don. Or, if she does, that he will resist.

[Taverner]

27. She had a baby -

So my question was - did Don cheat with his wife earlier?

[jonnyblitz]

4. i just finished watching yesterday's episode about 10 minutes

ago and I , too, noticed all that you mentioned PLUS I took note at how cringe worthy the frequent use of the word "negro" is.

[question everything]

6. Yes, it does cause one to pause

but this is how they talked then, go with the heavy drinking, smoking and womanizing.

I think that there are speeches by JFK, RFK and LBJ about civil rights and they, too, use the word "negro" and I am always taken aback.

[jonnyblitz]

8. I'm surprised mrs draper didn't have a martini in one hand

and a cigarette dangling out of her mouth while she was delivering the baby!

[Capn Sunshine]

34. did you watch online?

what's a good link? I missed it Sunday night due to a birthday party:party:

[Yavin4]

7. This Is The Early Sixties

This is how parents raised children back then, with little or no open affection. I was born during that time, and I would know.

[question everything]

10. Also interesting about the sexual behavior of both the men and the women

The "common wisdom" is that the sexual revolution started in the late 60s, with the baby boomers coming of age and the birth control pill. But watching these characters it was going well in the early 60s, perhaps even in the staid days of the Eisenhower administration. Except that it was supposed to have been reserved for the upper class, not for the masses.

I don't remember, by my spouse does, going to college with the children of these people and whose fathers were dying at the age of 50.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

12. People have always screwed -

that's sometimes news to younger folks, who think they invented it. But, cheating and screwing around have always been around.

The early sixties were no different from any other time in our history, believe me. People are people, and infidelity/rampant sexual activity/affairs/romances were just as prevalent then as they are today. Maybe even more so.

After all, birth control pills showed up then - I got my first prescription in 1963 - and, suddenly, everything was a whole lot simpler.

It's really funny how the past generations always look so virtuous from a distance, but, actually, we are a wild species, and we've always been wild, bless us all..........................................

[Arugula Latte]

21. To me it's unimaginable. It would seem that your instinct would just take over.

When you have a baby -- it is almost irresistible to you. You want to shower it with kisses and nibble on its chubby little arms and legs all day. My kids are 12 and 9 now, but I still hug and kiss them, oh, about three dozen times a day. I can't resist them. It's almost like a primal thing. I don't know how so many parents could have tamped down those instincts during that time period.

[targetpractice]

33. Instinctual maternal love fascinates me (as a gay guy)...

I always love hearing my female tell me all about it after they've had a baby... about the how totally surprised they were by the type and magnitude of love they feel toward their newborn.

I did know someone briefly (wife of a co-worker) ) who was very detached from her baby... She knew she was missing something that other women felt.

[Arugula Latte]

36. Hmmm ... I wonder the co-worker's wife maybe had postpartum depression.

Detachment can be a sign of that. Also, some babies are colicky and not as easy to bond with.

I wasn't a baby person before my kids were born, and, although I'm still more of a kitten person :) I do enjoy human babies a lot more than I used to now that I've had my own. With my first I didn't have that overwhelming instant mother love. It hit me a few days after he was born. He started crying in the middle of the night, and instead of it annoying me, when I looked at his little red screwed up squalling face I felt a rush of emotion that's hard to explain and also this overwhelming sense of responsibility that I had to always do what I could for him.

:hi:

[targetpractice]

37. Thanks for sharing that! n/t

[Taverner]

28. Too much affection was feared to lead to masturbation

"Dr" James Dobson still likes to push this idea...

[question everything]

38. Really? And people swallow this?

I dunno, perhaps it is cultural or class. I am an old boomer and my parents never had a spare nickel but love and affection were always around.

[Taverner]

44. Well it wasn't ALWAYS the case

Some people saw through it...

Some people said "fuggit!"

And some people followed...

[lifesbeautifulmagic]

9. Agree, and I think that the Sally character and story

is one of the more interesting things about the show. Betty has issues (as many as Dan) and is not, IMHO, the best mother. I can't get over how she told her Dad to shut up when he was trying to talk about his wishes and wants concerning his illness (and subsequent death).

[Tangerine LaBamba]

11. The only time I saw Don pushing his wife

in a wheelchair was when he brought her into the hospital, and that was before he and the prison guard met while waiting through their wives' labor.

So, they didn't know each other.

But, are you saying there was another scene, when his wife and baby were discharged? I don't remember that at all.

The year 1963 wasn't a big one for public or private displays of affection. Kids weren't cuddled much. It wasn't any big deal. I kissed my parents good night when I was going to bed, but that was about it.......................

[question everything]

14. Yes, there was another time.

The guard clearly was pushing his wife, this is how we, the viewers, recognized him. And, as mentioned above, it is possible that the guard's wife was not carrying a baby. I was not looking closely. If this were today, or even some 30 years ago, both men would have stopped, shook hands and introduced the new mothers.

But if there was no baby for the other couple, Don would be the first one to pretend ignorance.

Even today, most of us don't know what to tell new parents who've just lost their babies, or even had a miscarriage. The worst thing to say after a miscarriage, I've heard, is: "probably for the better.. the baby was not developing well." I used to, but not anymore. I just express my condolences to the would be parents or grandparents.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

19. Back in 1963,

people did not talk as intimately to each other - strangers, that is - as they do today. Especially men. Thirty-six years ago, the men would very simply have passed each other in the hallway without any acknowledgment. That's how it was back then.

That they had those moments in the solarium while they were waiting for their babies to be born would have been a source of embarrassment for both of them if it were mentioned, or even acknowledged, afterwards. Men didn't talk like that, not in those days. The guard admitting his need, his fears, his vulnerability - "I don't know what I'd do if anything happened to her."

That would be perfect, for them to pass as if they never met. The writers would get it just right.

But, remember that the guard's wife had had a Caesarean, and she would not have been discharged at the same time as Don's wife - not back then, when a Caesarean was a major abdominal operation, requiring the mother to stay in the hospital for quite a while.

So having the guard pushing his wife in a wheelchair might have been him just taking her out of the room for a while, and she wouldn't have been feeling very well, so the guard might not have noticed Don, and Don surely would not have said anything to the guard.

It's no accident, you realize, that the other man in the solarium was a "guard." That was the style of the times when it came to communication among people - very clever - quite the play on words.

Guard....................................

[Tuesday Afternoon]

20. lost me....

guard against what....? keep your emotions on guard ...?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

22. Emotions were guarded -

people were guarded, didn't tell things to strangers. Hell, didn't even tell things to themselves. It was very different, very, very different back then.

That's how good TV shows are written - there's always a theme, and sometimes it's hard for the viewer to see it, but this one is, I think, rather clever and spot on, given the time in which the show is set.

Of course, I could be all wrong about this, but having spent too much time in too many story sessions, this one works for me.........

[Tuesday Afternoon]

23. yes...emotions on guard. kept in check. I guessed that in the

message line.

[BuelahWitch]

13. I though for sure something was going to go terribly wrong with the baby

after the fat nurse kept neglecting Betty. Then strapping her down and giving her all kinds of drugs. Reminded me a bit of an insane asylum...

[MorningGlow]

16. I thought of my mom when I saw that scene

She told me that, back then, mothers didn't have to do anything--no pushing--they treated childbirth like an operation (shaving! :scared:), knocked the mother out, and went in and got the baby with forceps. I had a conehead for weeks because of that--there are pictures of me with the corner of my baby blanket flipped over my head to hide it. My brother still mocks me about that!

[MorningGlow]

15. I didn't get that either

When the nurse woke the prison guard up (when he was napping in the waiting room) she told him both his wife and baby were fine, so I don't think the baby died (it was probably in the nursery when he was pushing his wife in the wheelchair). So I don't know why he wouldn't acknowledge Don, unless he was embarrassed that he "opened up" to him so much when he was waiting to hear about his wife and baby.

Coldness--simply the parenting methods of another time. I was born in 1966, but to older parents, so I was raised this way. I knew my parents loved me, but they simply did not hug/kiss/cuddle me or even say "I love you". My mother was very stern and strict. I remember her saying quite frequently, when I became a preteen, "I am not your buddy--I am your parent." So yeah, the methods were very different then. (One thing I have noticed, though, is that my mom is making up for lost time with her grandkids--she ALWAYS says "I love you" and kisses my son constantly, which I think is great.)

One other thing I had to laugh at--from last week's ep, not this week--when the grownups were in the kitchen talking about Eugene's death and Sally came in, all upset, misunderstanding why they were laughing, Betty's command to her was, "Sally, go watch TV." Nowadays, we'll do anything to pry our kids away from the boob tube, but back then it was used as a babysitter.
:rofl:

[SoCalDem]

30. That was also the era of parenting books first coming into prominence

Dr. Spock & all his imitators came out with all kinds of new-fangled ideas about parenting, and a lot of that involved schedules, prepared formula & the whole not-spoiling-them stuff.

People of Don & Betty's ages were the first to really have time to spend with kids and yet that era produced a lot of "neglected" kids because of all that extra time freed up from the drudge of huge families & lots of manual labor.. a lot of the younger parents spent a lot of that free time on themselves, and parked the kids in front of the tv, or sent them "outside to play".

Little Sally is on her way to Flower-Child-dom.. She'll be in San Francisco in the summer of 68..mark my words:)

edit// my math is off..she'd be a bit young in '68, but she'll be burning her bra in the early 70's :)

[MorningGlow]

32. Oh yeah that kid is SO gonna rebel

After this season's premiere, I wondered on a thread here if Sally was going to become a hippie or become neurotic and go into therapy. I sure hope it's going to be the former.

I noticed that Betty said "no" to breastfeeding, which is in keeping with the time. According to my mom, anything that was old-fashioned--that their parents and grandparents did--was considered bad. That included breastfeeding (formula was modern, and "better living through chemistry" was preferred), and even extended to rejecting old houses and antique furniture. That's why I cherish the few pieces of furniture of my grandparents' that I do have--very little survived the "purge" when my grandparents moved from the old homestead to a new ranch home when they got older, as my mom and my aunt threw everything (EVERYthing) out the attic window. Now my mom laments all the expensive items she finds in antique stores that they had "three of".
:rofl:

[question everything]

40. Did Betty say NO to breastfeeding? I missed that but would not surprise me

She was a model and keeping her toned body is the most important thing for her.

[MorningGlow]

42. Yes, but it was more because of societal norms at the time

Formula was considered modern; breastfeeding was only for poor schlubs who couldn't afford the formula or were "backward" in their thinking. Keeping her figure would have been an extra bonus, though.

[Lucy Goosey]

17. I thought that the prison guard

... (Dennis was his name) might have been a bit embarassed over his emotional/drunken display in the waiting room, so he tried to avoid Don, and Don understands these things, so he didn't acknowledge Dennis.

And I agree that the Drapers are generally not great parents. That scene last week with Betty getting mad at Sally for being upset at her Grandfather's death killed me. But I thought that the scene on Sunday with Don and Sally sharing a late night snack was pretty adorable. (And that little girl is a really great actress!)

[kwassa]

18. I was brought up in the '60s, and have no memory of being hugged or kissed as a child.

To this day, my parents show little physical affection. Very undemonstrative people. Part of it is cultural as well, the northern European heritage. I think it sucks, frankly, and am different with my own daughter.

What I like about the show is that it really brings back that era, and the types of parties my parents had. Everyone drank and smoked, had certain kinds of cars, lived certain ways. My father was in a much more sedate job than advertising, though. I would have been about 8 years old in the current time frame of the show.

[question everything]

24. "Dirty Dancing" was taking place in 1963

time of changes. I was thinking about it watching the final scene where the wonderful Patrick Swayze was dancing with Jennifer Grey (before her nose job).

[kwassa]

25. Dirty Dancing didn't feel accurate to the time, though.

that was my impression when I saw the movie.

[Taverner]

29. Keep in mind the families in Dirty Dancing were mostly Jewish

Jewish families, per my experience, have never been short of affection. My mom (who's side my Jewishness comes from) remembers her childhood in the 40's being full of affection, and always wondering why other families weren't that way.

[kwassa]

45. I agree

I spent my 20s dating Jewish women, even engaged to one. I was looking for the opposite of my upbringing. I discovered that the other emotional side could by as dysfunctional as the WASP rational side of things. I would regard Jews as more a a southern European tradition, like the Italians, Greeks, and Spanish, as opposed to the anal retentive British background that I am from, and which set the stage for the original American culture, for better or worse.

It was not the emotional expressiveness that I was debating in the film; it is the idea that dirty dancing would even be a concept in 1963. That kind of thing came along a few years later than that in the subsequent social revolution of the late 60s.

[Taverner]

46. On that I disagree...

Considering the Samba, Tropicalia and Lounge styles available at the time...

But on the other, yes I agree - it seems to also be part of the Slavic culture - my mothers side is Polish.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

47. I'm Jewish was 11, where Madmen is right now & my parents were very affectionate

with their kids and each other.

[BuelahWitch]

43. Oh I was

Born in '62, my mother and my grandparents (who we lived with) were very affectionate. Maybe it was just because my mother had been trying for kids for so long, but I was a very important member of the household. Everything was fantastic up until the time I entered school.

[Taverner]

26. Yeah - that scene didn't make sense

The prison guard seemed almost as if he was glaring at him - as if Draper slept with his wife earlier.

Or maybe it did make sense...anyone else notice?

[SoCalDem]

31. Both men..strangers..told each other stuff about themselves

and were embarrassed to have done so.. and they were not equals..

[wickerwoman]

35. The whole concept of childhood didn't exist until the 1890s and then only for the upper classes.

Before that kids were either babies or mini-adults.

Look at how Don's parents were with him during the Great Depression in the 30s. He basically only existed to do farm work and get in the way. So of course he isn't going to know how to be affectionate with his own kids.

Meanwhile Betty is trapped in a life that she just isn't that interested in. Lots of women just don't like kids that much. But in those days what choice did they have? She's in a social class where it's not acceptable to become a teacher or nurse and sustain some kind of independence.

I think Don actually likes the kids but doesn't know what to do with them and Betty just wishes they would go away and stop bothering her.

[Bunny]

39. Your last sentence is exactly right:

"I think Don actually likes the kids but doesn't know what to do with them and Betty just wishes they would go away and stop bothering her."

[question everything]

41. I am surprised they are not sent to boarding schools, in this case

I think this is how many families handled the "what are we going to do with the kids."

Or perhaps they do not feel themselves upper class enough. These schools don't accept anyone, after all.