Venting On Leash Law Incident In My Local Park

[chknltl]

I am a frisbee disc golfer. I play disc golf at the Steillacoom Disc Golf course which is located on property managed by the Tacoma Parks Dept. On any nice day there will be a dozzen or so dogs accompanying their disc golfers around this course. It has been this way for years. At the gate to the park there is a sign with the Park's rules and regulations. One of those rules states that all dogs must be on a leash. I am one of the very few who bothers to use a leash for my dog, most folks don't even bother. It is customary to see non-disc golfers out on our course with their dogs too, again, few have leashes.

Unlike the few who do use their leashes, I don't always hold on to the other end of my dogs leash. When I am teeing off or putting I let the dog do what she pleases-she is still on a leash, I'm just not holding the other end of it. btw the sign with the rules on the gate does NOT say that the leash needs to be in the dog owners hands or in anyone else's hands for that matter! A technicality? Sure, I am aware of the intent of this regulation but technically I AM obeying the rules as they are posted.

Today I was approached by a Parks Department employee who told me that all dogs are supposed to be on a leash. When I pointed out that I saw the rules at the front gate and yes, my dog was indeed on a leash he responded with an attitude attack. He angrily stated that I didn't comprehend the rules very good. He then walked away about 30 feet and stared at me. I finished teeing off, picked up my dog's leash and proceeded on. (Folks with me thought that his attitude was way out of line too btw so it wasn't just me)

When I google up Tacoma Parks Leash regulations I get this:
"Bringing your pet to the park? Dogs and cats must be on a leash no longer than eight feet or secured inside a vehicle, and are not allowed to enter wading pools, ponds, lakes or fountains in any park. Animals of any other type are not permitted in any park. Any person with a dog or other pet in his or her possession shall be responsible for the conduct of the animal. Make sure to clean up all waste materials left behind by your pet." Does anyone see where it states that one has to be holding the other end of the leash at all times? Again, I know it's a technicality but would my argument hold up in court should it ever come to that?

[flvegan]

1. Sorry, but "leashed" or "on a leash" specifically intends that the animal

is tethered somehow to his/her owner. Leash laws have always been written with the intent that the tether would provide ongoing and continuous control by the owner of the animal.

[chknltl]

5. I don't at all disagree but...

...if I were given a ticket, (not sure that is likely but hypothetically speaking), do you suppose my technicality would hold up in court? My dog IS on a leash, a leash that is well within the parameters of the POSTED regulation I might add.

[flvegan]

8. Do you think that a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt would hold up

if you had one on as a hat?

[chknltl]

13. Good point!

I am inspired to google seat belt regulations for my state now.

[joeybee12]

30. No, it wouldn't hold up in court...

...they would determine that any "reasonable" person could se what the law intended...they'd call you a smartass.

[JonLP24]

2. Off topic but Steilacoom is beautiful

I would always drive down the Chambers Creek winding road to where it becomes parallel to the railroad tracks on my way to work at North Fort Lewis. Great scenary!

This is the road I took to get on base.

[chknltl]

6. Really nice photo of Steilacoom

Taken that ferry, walked those very tracks and often drive that road. The dic golf course is near there, behind Western State Hospital.

[JonLP24]

9. You probably driven by where I used to live

I lived at the Chambers Creek apartments right on the corner of Bridgeport Way & Chambers Creek rd which on the third road you come across you make that left which is the road in my picture. There is a Fred Meyer directly across the street. I feel comfortable telling you that because I moved back to Mesa, AZ since my ETS.

Edit/ I've been to the beach in Steilacoom a few times but mostly driven through it.

[chknltl]

16. I think so

Were you up the hill somewhere near the cemetery? Did you ever get to watch the Salmon going up the spillway near the mouth of Chambers Creek? There was this one day, as we were walking along the beech in your photo, I witnessed a LARGE school of salmon feeding,(I think that's what they were doing) just off shore. In any given minute we could see two or three of them jumping. We walked the entire stretch from ferry dock north to the trestle, took perhaps a half hour and the jumping-fest never let up the whole way!

[JonLP24]

20. So many hills in the Tacoma-Lakewood area.....

but I think I did live on an upward slope of Bridgeport Way. I was near a cemetery and what I think is a high class prep school or some kind of "academy". I did not see that or I think had the opportunity. I only lived in University Place after the deployment. Before that I was living on base for about 4 months before my unit deployed in '06.

[Ptah]

3. "I don't always hold on to the other end of my dogs leash"

Well there ya go.

[chknltl]

7. But the leash doesn't ever let go of the dog!

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nit-picking
nit-picking, second definition: "By extension, any process of finding or pointing out tiny details or errors, particularly if the pointed-out details seem insignificant or irrelevant to all but the finder." (the finder-that'd be me)

[Ptah]

12. .

[petronius]

4. Sounds like Republican logic to me...

:P

Can you have someone else hold the leash, or put it under your foot, or loop it over something?

[chknltl]

11. Well I do now have someone else holdin' onto the leash!

After that incident the rest of the folks in my group offered to hold the dog. They all thought the Park guy was over the top with his anger too, I suppose you had to have been there. As far as looping the leash over something, or stepping on it, all sensible options to me to me, BUT what if Mr. Park guy comes back and says that I ain't holdin' on to the leash again??? Within the intent of the regulation he is still right! (He seemed like just the sort of guy who would do just that too!)

[petronius]

17. Oh, I don't doubt that park guy was a blazing asshole - that's implied by

the fact that he felt compelled to speak to you at all... :)

I would think that a logical interpretation of a leash law would be that one end has to be attached to the dog, and the other end to something that controls the dog. After all, what if you didn't have hands?

[EndersDame]

10. I wish there were more off leash dog parks in my part of town

[Tangerine LaBamba]

14. I don't know what a "technicality" is -

I think it's one of those words non-lawyers use to indicate their superior interpretation of the law. Or something like that.

It reminds me of the people who think telling the cop who just pulled them over for speeding that they have diarrhea is a new and clever excuse that no one's ever used before.

I would just like to be there when you tried that one out on a judge. THAT would be worth watching, but you wouldn't like the outcome.

Nice try, but I don't think so.......................................

[LeftyMom]

15. Being dickish about it is a good way to get dogs banned from the park entirely.

FWIW, a leash law is for your dog's protection as much as for anybody elses. And letting your dog trail an unheld leash is an entanglement hazard.

[chknltl]

21. LeftyMom...and everyone else.

If I was being dickish, it was not something I did intentionally. Folks who know me do not see me that way. The folks in my group did not see it that way. One of the guys in that group, someone who didn't even know me didn't see it that way! (Newbie who looks forward to tagging along with us tomorrow). Hell, even the grounds keeper, (another disc golfer who often has an unleashed dog or two in the group he plays with), when informed of the incident thought, that the Parks Guy was the one being a dick!

Look you don't know me, let me add a little about me and Steilacoom disc golf park. One of the other rules is NO alcohalic substances. Members of the TDGA, (Tacoma Disc Golf Association) recognize this and most of us don't drink in that park. (I rarely drink anyway) Not all disc golfers who play there are members-it's a park open to everyone. The biggest by far problem in that park is litter-more specifically beer bottles and cans. I've been going to that park since 1992 as a member of the TDGA
I'm part of the loose-nit family out there. If you were to ask ANYONE out there about me, chances are the first thing you would hear would have nothing to do with my disc golfing abilities-(I am barely past novice rank in ability)-instead they will tell you that I'm the guy with the five gallon bucket. I've carried that bucket for the better part of the decade plus that I've been going there. I use it to pick up those empty beer bottles and cans I mentioned. I usually fill that bucket two and a half times each time I go there. I go there three to four times a week. Some days I don't even play any disc golf while there. Some days our beloved course is so trashed my entire time is spent picking up litter. btw that Parks guy knows this detail about me too-never a word of thanks out of him, not once! It is a rare week when a fellow disc golfer doesn't thank me for what I do. FWIW I do this service not for thanks but because I love that disc golf course. I am very proud of it actually! It makes me feel good to take folks out to play there for the first time because our course is just so so lovely!

Recently a few of us were sittin on the bench near the parking lot. A nice young man came up and introduced himself to us. He was a soldier from nearby Ft. Lewis. He wanted to know if we could tell him where to purchase discs. It turns out that he is involved with a group of folks over at the base who are doing rehabilitation on vets returning all busted up from Iraq and Afghanistan. Before he left our group at the bench he had a few free discs and we had his phone number. Within the next few days the TDGA donated over a hundred discs to his organization-sent our grounds keeper out to the base with a team to fix up the old course we put in there years ago, (it was in a bad state of neglect) and now are closely working with those wounded vets. Of the hundred or so donated discs, 30 new ones came from me. Should any of those vets show up on our course it would be my honor to take them around and show them the ropes. btw: I'm also known for picking up newbies who are wandering the course trying to figure out where everything is. I take them on a round or two with me just so they get to know the rules and how our course is laid out. Lately I spend more and more time takin newbies around than just playing disc golf with my chums-oh and always always always pickin up beer bottles and cans!

Leftymom, I dunno, perhaps I was being dickish as you put it, to that parks guy. I know that I am prone to a bit of snark-I enjoy that actually, I am pretty good at puttin my foot in my mouth too. I felt at the time that that I did was respond with quick snark. This OP was less about the technicality of holding onto the leash, it was instead more of me needing to vent brought on by that park guy's response. Perhaps if you were there, perhaps if you were one of the many folks who go out to that park who know me...well...who knows. Should you or anyone else who reads this ever come out to our little disc golf course look me up. I'll be the older hippie lookin guy with the white bucket.

aw crap- my dog just puked on my kid's bed while I was editing this. I'll check back tomorrow
c

[EFerrari]

18. Only if the judge was an Old Testament god.

:)

[omega minimo]

19. Maybe you should wear the leash and let the dog hang on to you.

:think:

[suninvited]

22. You know that sign

the one that retail stores and food establishments are known to have "no shirt, no shoes, no service"

I had a guy come in one day where I worked wearing only a pair of shorts. I stopped him at the door and told him nicely that he couldnt come in without shirt and shoes. "Oh, I have them right here" he said, holding up a tote bag. When I told him that he must be wearing them, as health department regulations prohibited him walking around the store like that, he told me that I needed to fix my sign. Sure enough, the sign did not specify that he was wearing the items, only that he couldnt come in without them.

[JonLP24]

23. Sometimes when I see that sign

I wonder what would happen if I showed up ONLY wearing shoes and a shirt. Though I'm sure they have state laws for the no pants part.

[suninvited]

24. It has been done, I think

not too long after the no shirt no shoes guy came into my store I went into a gas station in a small town not far from where I was living and noticed a rather large sign posted on their door:

YOU MUST BE WEARING PANTS TO ENTER THIS STORE.

I asked the lady behind the counter if they often had people come in without pants. Not anymore, she said.

[armyowalgreens]

25. You can argue technicalities all you want. No one with half a brain will give a crap.

The intent of the rule is obvious to the average person. You would never win if you challenged something like that in court.

Judges are only interested in technicalities that pose legitimate philosophical questions about the laws intent and practicality. They would probably just label you are smart ass and rule against you.

[Orsino]

26. Not even a technicality.

Citing it might even get you contempt.

[Deep13]

27. It's not a leash if the end isn't secured. nt

[Taitertots]

28. Why are you intentionally violating the course rules?

[Rabrrrrrr]

29. Oh, please. No one can be that dense - being on a leash means someone holds it.

Otherwise, why bother saying that animals need to be on a leash?

:eyes:

Fucking hell.


I'm sure that you have parks with dog run areas where they can go unleashed, but I suppose that isn't good enough.

Why is it so goddamn hard for some pet owners to take some goddamn responsibility?

[mitchum]

31. That's a 5 year old's argument; that wouldn't even stand up on the playground

[theNotoriousP.I.G.]

32. Are you being silly?

What is a leash for other than to keep your dog in control at all times? You're letting the dog wander around with a leash around its neck but have no control over the leash and you think you are following the law and feel harassed by the Parks Department employee?

No, your argument will not hold up in a court of law.


As an animal owner who has had many run-ins with people who think their dogs pose no risk to others and let them roam without a leash, only to have my dog attacked, I really don't appreciate your attitude.

[Kali]

33. we used to do that with our old lab, when we lived in town

she was completely obedient to voice (or hand signal) but in new parks we made her drag a string to avoid problems.

[Arugula Latte]

34. Come on. Your dog could dash off if you don't hold the leash, and you know it.

She could hurt herself, another dog, or a person. I've seen way too many bad incidents in parks with dogs running unleashed (which, essentially, your dog is. A leash trailing behind her does no good in stopping her).

You're giving responsible dog owners a bad name.

[chknltl]

37. Yes of course, my dog, the rare leashed one might dash off...

..and mingle with all the other dogs runnin around there unleashed! That could be bad! The way she normally gets to mingle with the few dogs she encounters out there each hour is when they come runnin up to her! But you are correct, when I set the leash down to throw my disc, there is that chance my dog might dash off.

btw when I spoke to the President of the Tacoma Disc Golf Association, he was appalled at all the hullibaloo. To paraphrase his words, he said that members of our club who bring our dogs to that park by and large have better control over them than do the non player dog owners who come out there and just let their dogs roam freely. We are the ones not only picking up the litter and maintaining this park but we are also the ones picking up the dog poo! Now don't get me wrong, I'm not pickin on the local dog owners who bring their dogs to the park for purposes other than disc golf, it's a large park, we welcome everyone! The neighborhood genuinely appreciates that we disc golfers are the ones maintaining this park.

[BlueJazz]

35. I'm with YOU on this one. If the Lawyers that write the Laws are not smart enough to add...

..."And in control of the person who is Responsible for the Animal".....

Then Piss on them !! I'd fight it in court all the way.

[chknltl]

36. Thank you for the support my fellow Duer

(You did know that all talk about courts and judges and stuff was hypothetical didn't you?-there were no tickests or nothing issued) The park guy knows who I am, he knows that I am one of the many disc golfers with dogs, knows that I am one of the very few who actually has and uses leashes on my dogs for most of my stay in the park. He sees tons of leashless dogs in that particular park and has never said anything to anyone about it that I am aware of. It is obvious that he was having a bad day anyway and unloaded on me.

[msanthrope]

38. Should you ever be ticketed, I want to attend court on the day you

go to protest it.

Seriously. Judges lurve guys like you. You make the morning docket pass, and the court staff will have a new "what an *expletive*" to talk about during lunch break.

Clip the leash to your back belt loop with a carabiner and quit being a smartass.