Here's where I always trip up. If alcoholism/drug addiction is a disease,

[raccoon]

and the person who is alcoholic/drug addicted "isn't a bad person. S/he is a person with a disease that makes her/him do bad things." (Paraphrased from HOPE FOR TODAY, page 274, copyright 2002, by Al-Anon Family Group Headquarters, Inc.)

Then, couldn't you say that about anybody? Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, even--I hesitate to type the name--Polanski?

[RetroLounge]

1. Here we go...

:popcorn:

RL

[TZ]

2. Mental illness is a disease too.

But that doesn't mean mentally ill people can't be jackasses ...I should know, I have that in my family.
Human behavior is NOT all genetically determined...Therefore, you cannot say oh well its the disease and shrug it off, thats scientifically and factually flawed.

[crim son]

3. I can think of argument for and against your proposition

but in fact there is no clear answer, especially since what is considered good and bad behavior is usually a cultural construct and not an absolute... unless you're a religious wingnut of course... Even murder is condoned during war yet historically military persons who dispatched many of the enemy were celebrated as heroes. And yes, I know that isn't the best example but it is an example of moral relativity.

[Deep13]

4. Addiction is a disorder, but not a disease.

Alocoholism is an umbrella term for a variety of diseases that alcohol addiction causes.

Only AA thinks it is a disease and that divine intervention is the partial cure.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

18. Only AA

and the American Medical Society (1955) :shrug:

[Deep13]

19. AMS? What's that?

I know about the AMA, but what's the AMS? I'm not trying to be flippant, but you have not even included a page citation to their standard reference guide (assuming they have one.)

I looked this up awhile ago. There doesn't seem to be any indication that medical professionals regard the status of alcoholism (as opposed to cirrhosis, liver cancer etc.) is a disease. Diseases have a specific pathology that usually results from either an invading organism or some specific organic condition. If I'm wrong about this then I would like to see the evidence. A vague allusion to a group I have never heard of really isn't convicning.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

20. Sorry. I meant

AMA. I found this on that website. I'm not really arguing with you. I'm in the program myself so I'm probably biased :)

Alcoholism Is a Disease

Z.D.

JAMA. 1972;222(6):699.


Since this article does not have an abstract, we have provided the first 150 words of the full text PDF and any section headings.


The American Medical Association, the American College of Physicians, the American Psychiatric Association, and other bodies have long accepted the concept of alcoholism as disease. Now the National Council on Alcoholism has issued a statement listing the criteria for diagnosis of alcoholism.1,2 These criteria were compiled by a committee of medical authorities in order to establish guidelines for proper diagnosis and evaluation of this malady. They include the diagnostic areas in physiological, clinical, behavioral, psychological, and attitudinal groups of symptoms. This action by the National Council on Alcoholism is to be sincerely applauded. It has long been necessary, for both medical and legal purposes, to define the condition of alcoholism. No treatment can be started nor can preventive or corrective action be initiated unless the problem itself has been confirmed, both in existence and in degree.

Diagnostic criteria may serve to ascertain the nature of disease from a cluster . . .

[Deep13]

21. I'll look into it the next time I'm at the library.

Thanks for the heads-up.

[qb]

5. No matter what your illness or disability, you are still responsible for your behavior.

With the exception of those who are so impaired they need to be institutionalized.

[hippywife]

7. There was no mention of responsibility

in the OP's question. Just if someone should always be labeled a "bad" person. There is justice and then there is judgement, two different things.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

23. Please stop

making sense!

[hippywife]

6. Yes, actually, you can.

To believe in the possibility of a world free of all violence is to believe that anyone is redeemable. Anyone.

[sasquatch]

8. God, I love this place

[northzax]

9. of course

is Polanski a 'bad person'? I have no idea. I know he's a convicted felon who has spent 30 years on the run from the law and owes society that debt.

is Manson a 'bad person'? who the hell knows? I know he's done evil things and is paying the price society has determined for him. but he's certainly mentally ill. once he's 'cured' and serves the rest of his multiple consecutive life sentences, I have no problem with his release in roughly 2250.

but you know who you can actually define as a 'bad person'? someone without the mental illness, addiction or other mitigating factor who proceeds to hurt other people either intentionally or through neglect. to me that's pretty cut and dry. some people are just assholes.

[raccoon]

12. What I'm trying to say, is I always have a problem with people saying

"You need to separate the person from the disease."

This seems to me to exonerate the person for mean abusive behaviors, because that behavior was, supposedly, "their disease."

And as you said, some people are just assholes. They may be an asshole even without the mitigating factor.

[northzax]

15. you can, of course, separate the person from their illness

you cannot, of course, separate the person from the responsibility of their actions, no matter the cause, and the potential for recurrence.

[Tobin S.]

10. Alcohol and dope can actually be medicine for diseases

The do it yourself kind of medication. A lot of people who have brain diseases self-medicate. Unfortunately for them that just means they usually develop a second life-threatening problem. Yep, the joy of dual diagnosis.

[raccoon]

11. You're so right about that. nt

[PRETZEL]

13. To the second part of your question,

no way in hell would I even consider the names mentioned associated with someone dealing with and addiction.

Now to the first part, which at this stage of my life I'm having to deal with with someone extremely close to me. I'm dealing right now with someone who is very much abusing (addicted, not sure)alcohol. She's also dealing with a long term depression and is on Paxil. Needless to say the combination is devastating to both of us.

Right now, I'm asking myself so many questions it's becoming borderline obsessive on my part. But the constant in all of this is that she's only a bad person when she loses self control. Weekends are the worst. But I don't know if it's hormonal related or if there's something else. She won't seek help nor talk a whole lot about it. That's the frustrating part.

So, I guess in my opinion, it's not the person, but the effects of things she is having a very hard time controlling.

[Tobin S.]

14. It's a common story, PRETZEL

It used to be mine as well. I have a severe mental illness called schizoaffective disorder. Because of it I started drinking heavily for relief from my symptoms. And it worked- for a few hours. Then I'd wake up the next day feeling worse than before I drank the night before. You can probably see how this becomes a cycle.

I didn't know that I was mentally ill when I was doing that so I wasn't receiving any treatment at the time. But even after I finally did get treatment I found that I still had a very hard time staying away from the booze. The mental illness was being successfully treated, but I still had the addiction to alcohol. I would kick it for a few months only to start back up again.

I haven't had a drink since last New Year's Eve, and I'm feeling a hell of a lot better and I'm confident that I'll be able to remain sober. When I woke up New Year's Day with a terrible hangover I knew it had to stop. I'd had enough. As clique as it sounds, I had to do it for myself. I've always punished myself due to self esteem issues and the alcohol just fed that.

[PRETZEL]

16. You should be commended for getting help,

it takes a big person to admit something's wrong. I did a quick read on your disorder. Unfortunately I tend to think it's something else. Her biggest problem isn't necessarily how many times a week she drinks, it's always how much when she does. She's got a threshold. If she stays under 4 drinks, she's ok. Once she hits that 4th drink, it's lights out no stopping until the liquor's gone. That's the abuse part.

Thankfully I do have this outlet to vent. Some days I need it alot.

[Lethe]

17. there is a good Maugham quote about this in The Razor's Edge

but i can't find it....i just read it last week

sorry i guess that isn't any help to you

[bigwillq]

22. Leave Polanski alone.

Waaaa
Waaaa
Waaaa

:rofl:

He my hero.

:rofl: