John Lennon and Kurt Cobain

[Rising Phoenix]

I know the john fans hate this comparison, and I have to admit john was murdered and did not kill himself

However, I was 2 1/2 when John died

I was 15 when Kurt died

My dad called me from Russia ( long story)
and I cried.
and cried.



When you can find somebody who can articulate what you want to say, but didn't know how, and you lose that voice.....that is sad.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

1. People who were too young / not born during the peak Beatles / Lennon years...

...can never have the nuance, the context of being there while it all unfolded.

More than any other band, The Beatles represented a true "you had to be there" experience. That doesn't mean the songs are not still vital.

That means if a person wasn't "there," I don;t care how many books they read on Lennon and The Beatles or how many CDs they listen to.

Being there and experiencing it after the fact are two separate things. That's why my standard response to younger listeners who check out The Beatles and say "I don;t get it" is "You're right...you don't, and that's OK."

I'm a Lennon fan who wouldn't make the comparison, for many reasons. I liked "Teen Spirit" and "Come As You Are" but that sums up the majority of my appreciation, although I do acknowledge Cobain's impact. But I clearly remember the "he was our John Lennon" remarks coming through MTV after his passing, and respect the fans who express those sentiments. For them, he was. For me, he wasn't. Such is life.

:patriot:

[WCGreen]

2. When I was six or seven, during the Beatles second tour of the USA...

I won a set of Ringo Rings from a radio station. I was the talk of the second grade...

[Rising Phoenix]

3. I totally agree

I wasn't there. I don't know. I can't understand.


just as

You weren't there. You don't know. You can't understand.

I will say Lennon came first, influenced all my idols, and changed the world in a way that nobody around my age could possibly have.....at least not yet.

[WCGreen]

6. I was working at a radio station in fort Wayne Indiana when Nirvana nurst

on the scene. They were a breath of fresh air just like the Beatles were when they burst on the scene.

The difference is that I think the Beatles were playing for years together, hanging out in Hamburgh and playing live ten twelve hours a day seven days a week. They had to play everything from Polkas to German Beer songs that is why they were so unique. They had such a wide background in music that they could and did incorporate all sorts of strange cord progressions.

Kurt, I think, hit the wall and that was why he was so depressed. I don't think he could bear to see himself playing smells like team spirit when he was fifty....

[Sequoia]

4. I remember exactly where I was when I heard about Kurt.

I live his recording (live) in New York City where he signs about the Lake of Fire and the Illustrated Book about birds. Now, there's a guy I could hang with even if I could've been his mom.

[Rising Phoenix]

5. I didn't live/love/die music

till I heard Nirvana

not to take today away from John


I'm sure there would be no Kurt without John and I know there would be no RP without EITHER of them.

[Sequoia]

7. You know it.

While I like John and the rest of them, I grew up in the 1960s and sometimes I just get burnt out by it. I really don't need to go back in the Way Back Machine sometimes. Kurt was unique, that's for sure.

[Jamastiene]

31. I was at work when I heard about it.

Actually, that was the last day I worked for that dog groomer. That was the day I quit that job. I needed to long before that, but her insensitivity to how that affected me was just too much. I quit and never looked back. It was the best decision I made during that time.

[Odin2005]

8. I was 8. I remember my sister, a Nirvana fan, just BAWLING.

[cbdo2007]

9. There's quite a bit to be said for someone killing themself though...

and of all the rock greats who died too soon, there were murders, accidental drug overdoses, etc. but Kurt put a gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger because he wanted to die while he was on top, just like all the legends did.

Hey, I was there too...biggest Nirvana fan around and saw them live in the fall of 1993 when I was 16. It hit me pretty hard when he killed himself and then I immersed myself even more in Nirvana's music and stuff. Bought everything they made and had quite a bootleg collection for a couple more years.

Now I just look back and see him as pathetic. So you're a rock god...and you're angry and a drug addict...get over yourself man. You aren't THAT important that you need to kill yourself to get some privacy or whatever. Sure they were a punch in the face to the music at the time and they made some great albums and songs but I hold absolutely NO respect for Kurt. Just a whiney asshole.

I'm not a huge John Lennon fan but I like him alright (I'm a bigger McCartney Beatles fan) but he was out there trying to make a difference and he got killed by some wacko. Kurt didn't want to help anybody but himself. He specifically DIDN'T want to make a difference, he wanted to disappear, and for many of his he accomplished that. Good riddance Kurt!

[Lindsey]

10. Well cbdo2007, I guess you've never had the "pleasure" of

experiencing severe clinical depression or had a brother, sister, father, or mother who has. Depression runs rampant through my family. An uncle committed suicide, three aunts, and my grandmother had to have shock treatment (this was before breakthroughs in anti-depressants). And then there's my precious sister. She was National Operations Manager for a major computer distributing company in the 90's. She had a beautiful condo in Chicago and a great husband. She had everything. And then depression besieged her. I guess she just woke up one morning and said, "hey, think I'll kill myself today." She ended up in a hospital for over a year. She attempted suicide more times than I can count. Thank God in Heaven, she never succeeded. After trying many of the different medications and the help she received in the hospital, she is now at peace and happily alive. There's very little that infuriates me more than people who say things like what you just said about Kurt Cobain. Do you think he liked being a drug addict? It was the ONLY thing that brought him peace. Do you think he liked having such horrific depression that he saw no other option but to kill himself? Uneducated people who have absolutely NO CLUE what depression is is what has stigmatized this horrible, horrible disease. And yes, IT IS A DISEASE... Just like heart disease only instead of things not working the way they're supposed to work in one's heart, it's happening in the brain. It has to do with levels of Serotonin (you may need to look that one up - I know it's a big word) and other chemicals being so completely in disarray that it effects every part of one's being. I know you're probably at a disadvantage on understanding this issue. I studied it quite thoroughly in college (even though my degree is not in this subject). I loved John Lennon and I loved Kurt Cobain. My heart breaks for Kurt but then I'm a very compassionate person who knows what it was like for him. Man, I can't believe people still think the way you do - that scares me.

[cbdo2007]

12. Hey.....I've known plenty of depressed people...

and my comments were not intended to be representative of all severly depressed people, just Kurt Cobain who even said in his suicide letter that he wanted to burn out and not fade away. I've read all the Nirvana books and know all about Kurt's history with drugs and depression and such, but he said so himself, he wanted to go out on top. He used his suicide to cement his place in rock history with all of the other legends, not truly as an escape from his fame or his songs or whatever. He knew 27 was the magic number...Robert Johnson, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison...Kurt Cobain. He left a wife and daughter and he wanted to be a legend. I didn't realize that until long after he killed himself.

No disrespect to the people you've known or other people with depression, but Kurt had many options. He just happened to choose the one that garaunteed he would live forever.

[Rising Phoenix]

13. good riddance is harsh

I don't know what was going on in his head when he took his life, and quite frankly, neither do you. So you read some books, don't believe everything your read. A good majority of those books are to exploit him and gain money for his estate. Even journals are full of lies when you are stuck in the sort of depression hell he seemed to be. Nobody wants to be honest about how much they hurt, even to themselves.

I'm not saying you aren't right. But the truth is you don't KNOW, and neither do I. And we probably never will know.

[cbdo2007]

19. You are correct!

I'm usually the one to say "you don't know and neither do I cause neither of us was there...." so I probably have been overly judgemental. Who knows, maybe it just still hurts too much that I don't want to look at it objectively and I'm just mad at him? I still can't listen to All Apologies....it's pretty hard.

Sorry Kurt.

[Rising Phoenix]

22. ...

:hug:

[bamacrat]

18. That's if you believe he killed himself. The facts show he didnt.

And more of a McCartney Beatles fan, ew. John was the brains and the ideas.

Kurt couldnt have killed himself.
1. He was very short about 5 ft. 4. and he was killed with a double barrel shotgun. Both hands placed around the barrel and both shoes on. He could not have reached the trigger. Also he was shot in the face, the gun, had it been in his mouth would have blown the back of his head off, not his face. Even more evidence he couldnt have shot himself.
2. He had almost twice the lethal dosage of heroin in his system. He was a heavy user and per medical experts would have passed immediately after injection. His syringe kit was put up neatly next to him.
3. A man came forth shortly after his death and said he had been approached by Courtney Love to kill Kurt, he was found a week or two later having been run over by a train.
4. The "suicide" note was only half written by Kurt. The last half where it eludes to suicide was written by someone else. Handwriting analysis has shown that.

Its just easier and more "obvious" to investigators to rule this a suicide. But this is clearly not.

[cbdo2007]

20. Oh my....."John was the brains and the ideas."

Ha ha, I realize this is a Lennon worship thread but that's a little harsh. Here's a good algamamation (sp?) of John's account of who wrote what. Scroll down to the bottom of the article for the listing:

http://www.epinions.com/review/Paul_McCartney_by_Barry_Miles/content_421908352644

As for the Kurt Cobain stuff, I've never seen the movie regarding the Courtney Love murder for hire theory, so I'll have to look into that some more. Thanks for the info!

[bamacrat]

24. I dont doubt Paul helped but he wanted all the attention and would rewrite parts of songs...

to give him more play time. He was selfish and is who really broke up the Beatles. one only has to look at what they both did after the Beatles to see who was the real genius. But of course Im a Lennon guy so... I guess my opinion is skewed.

But the stuff about Kurt is definitely worth a read.
A few suggestions:
"Who Killed Kurt Cobain" by Ian Hallperin and Max Wallace. Very good goes into alot of what I mentioned.
Also Tom Grant was a cop and retired to devote his self to investigating this. He has written many articles and books.

http://www.cobaincase.com/

Im not saying Courtney did it per se but it definitely wasnt a suicide.

[Forkboy]

21. It was Dylan Carson from the band Earth! Well, it was his shotgun anyways.

[Mad_Dem_X]

25. Thank you - Kurt was murdered. Five words:

NO FINGERPRINTS ON THE GUN.

If he'd shot himself, wouldn't his fingerprints be on the gun? (And, if they were, why would someone wipe them off?)

[bamacrat]

26. No. Thank you.

The most obvious piece of evidence that he was murdered is that both his hands were around the barrel and his shoes were on so no way could he have shot his self.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

27. It's also a little known fact that John Lennon committed suicide.

To atone for what he did to JFK.

[bamacrat]

28. If you mean that a psychotic Mark David Chapman, who thought he was Lennon,...

and was killing the impersonator then ok.

[JCMach1]

11. Cobain and I were the same age even our bdays were very close

So yeah, I was more upset about Cobain than Lennon.

[Forkboy]

14. I don't understand how Cobain could be a voice for anyone...I couldn't understand a thing he said.

And I LIKED the band. ;)

[graywarrior]

15. I'm old enough to remember John's death and it devastated me

Kurt Cobain's death shocked and saddened me. I considered him to be a rare talent and every time I hear a Nirvana song, I feel so bad that he ended his life so soon.

[DarkTirade]

16. It occurs to me

that I don't even have a picture of my girlfriend in my phone's memory card.

... but I do have a picture of John and a picture of Kurt. Go fig. :)

[ismnotwasm]

17. My ten year old grandson

Loves Nirvana, loves Jimi Hendrix, but doesn't 'get' The Beatles or John Lennon at all.

What he is currently becoming though, is a huge Queen fan. He mourns Freddy Mercury in a way he doesn't for Kurt Cobain, but in the way I think you're kind of talking about. At ten, he doesn't have the life experience to understand a lot of music and most of the lyrics (although he's seen a bit more life than many ten year olds)but the music speaks to him. He'll understand John Lennon eventually, I have no doubt.

It's an odd thing to watch at a generation apart, and I'm careful with my answers. It's also pretty profound to actively enjoy music with my grandson.

I remember when we heard Lennon was shot, when Cobain was dead. Blow to the gut. So was losing Stevie Ray Vaughan, although he wasn't so bright a star. We don't forget we were, or what we were doing do we? When the music seems to die? Though the eyes of my grandson, it's like it's reborn.

[TK421]

23. I'm sorry, but you're probably going to hate my ass for saying this

but anyone who has that kind of living and makes that kind of money ( which happens to be the biggest cause of stress for me these days, amongst many others I'm sure ) and has everything going for him ( and I will admit, Kurt had great songwriting talent and a great persona )I don't know, or can't profess to know how much of a miserable mental condition he was in at the time he decided to shoot himself, but man...the guy had things that most of us wished we had, and that doesn't even include his talent. He had a stable career, a safe roof over his head, and plenty of income to keep himself living comfortably for DECADES....and he threw it all away because, well, I'm not sure why. He had what many people in this country wish they had now...security. This guy threw it away...

edited to add: this guy had a great musical career then, and could still have had one today


Lennon didn't have a choice

[Lindsey]

29. I guess it's really, really hard for anyone who hasn't had severe

depression to get it - and I understand that because there are things I don't get either because I or no one close to me has experienced that particular set of circumstances. I guess one way to explain depression is that it's like your going down a black hole and every thing you see is every fear you've ever had realized. When you're in that hole, money, fame, a beautiful house, a great significant other, everything that most people would consider fabulous doesn't even enter into the picture. All you know is that you're in a black hole and every thing you see is every fear you've ever had realized (due, IMHO, to major problems with all of the chemicals in the brain. That puts it in the physical realm like someone suffering from more commonly physical condition like diabetes, being blind, not being able to walk, etc.).

[Jamastiene]

30. K& (Tried to) R

I miss his voice and his values. He was against homophobia, racism, and sexism. He stood up for me (and many others) before it was cool to stand up for people. RIP Kurt