What are your worst examples of sexism?

[efhmc]

To me the worse examples are not the "in your face" occurrences. To me they are the ingrained, "you don't even see them for what they are", daily occurrences. Example: thinking that baby bush is a good person to be president because he has a penis. He would never have gotten anywhere without that appendage. As a woman, he would have never have gone anywhere and would have been seen as the nothing he is. It is only because he is a rich male that his obvious inadequacies have been overlooked. What examples do you have? Have your talents been overlooked because you as a male or female do not fit the mold?

[mouse7]

1. Female circumcision

I don't think it can get a whole lot worse than that short of just running bayonets through women.

[gyopsy]

2. Genders do have certain roles

It's just silly to say that women can do everything that men can do and men can do everything women can do.

Women (on average) will never be as physically strong as men. They'll never be as good at baseball or football as men. And don't tell me they are...if men ever played women at baseball the men would win.

Women are good at many things that men aren't.

I do think the two genders balance each other out in a way that makes them both equal.

[efhmc]

5. Sorry but I think you missed my point. I am talking about your own

experience. Granted my example was one we all know. Most of us, whether male or female will not play professional sports. And truly, I don't care. I think the time, money and energy spent on sports could be better used to help make the world a more complete place for those who are homeless and starving. (Only my humble womanly opinion. You, of course, may think and do whatever you want and obviously without my say so.)

[mouse7]

6. I'll start Jackie Joyner-Kersee at Free Safety

Give her a couple of months to get up to speed on the playbook and coverages... Pro Bowl.

Basically the entire US male population is scouted and scoured for athletic talent through junior high school. It's what this society does. Young women aren't given remotely close to amount of athletic talent screening that young males are. We are utterly clueless as to the real upper limits are on female athletes, because the pool of women from which athletes are which later competes is so much less scrutinized.

[efhmc]

8. You are a guy. Right ? Therefore, you are not taking this seriously

because you never have had to. Why are you not able to see this issue?

[mouse7]

13. What are YOU talking about?

You don't see female circumcision as a problem or something?

[efhmc]

17. No, I see that as a very important world health and domination problem

for women. What I don't think is important is whether women are strong enought to play football, which I consider to be a very violent and stupid use of time and omeny.

[The Lone Liberal]

3. It is not sexism...It is class.

If you were not lucky enough to win the maternity room lottery you are assigned to underclass status. It has nothing to do with appendage or absence thereof. It has to do with the Rolodex that you are born with or without.

The ruling class consist of less than 350,000 people and you had better be born into that group or you will be without power or influence.

The mass of humanity does not count. It is here to provide the sinew and blood to fight wars, consume goods and pick up the trash.

When read this will seem a cry of envy or despair, it is neither, it is seemly a realistic and objective summary of reality.

What is strange and pathetic is that the masses does not hang the 350,000.

[efhmc]

7. There is definitely a great deal of truth in that but I can tell you

personally as a person of the upper middle class that men still have the advantage and that means men of almost any class. Really don't believe that much in class. It really is about education and presentation and having a penis.

[The Lone Liberal]

11. Then you are a foolish.

Everything is about class and economics. There is not problem facing the human race that does not come down to money or its absence. You were born into the upper middle class, you lacked for nothing. Your sister born into poverty is worried about her next meal, you on the other hand are worried that you have been slighted in some race for the top.

This sounds harsh and it is, but we of the privileged class are quick to overlook those at the bottom and their struggle for existence. While we whine about some slight that has been inflicted upon us, there are millions and millions that were locked into poverty and struggle because they didn't come out of the politically correct womb.

While we engage in dilettante arguments about sexism there are those who are being exploited daily and denied the subsistence that every human should be entitled too.

[efhmc]

14. So wrong and such a male response, whether you are one or not.

As Shirley Chisholm said, "Of my two "handicaps" being female put more obstacles in my path than being black."

[asthmaticeog]

16. "such a male response?"

Essentialism ... that's always helpful.

[efhmc]

18. But so essentially true.

[asthmaticeog]

22. Essentialism is one of the

root problems that sexism springs from, if not the foremost root problem.

[efhmc]

26. So do not agree.

In a specifically postcolonial context, we find essentialism in the reduction of the indigenous people to an "essential" idea of what it means to be African/Indian/Arabic, thus simplifying the task of colonization. Nationalist and liberationist movements often "write back" and reduce the colonizers to an essence, simultaneously defining themselves in terms of an authentic essence which may deny or invert the values of the ascribed characteristics (see discussions on reclaiming the term "Third World," particularly in Chandra Mohanty's "Introduction" to Third World Women and the Politics of Feminism, ed. Chandra Mohanty, Ann Russo, and Lourdes Torres <1991> 1-47). Edward Said argues against this inversion, suggesting that "in Post-colonial national states, the liabilities of such essences as the Celtic spirit, négritude, or Islam are clear: they have much to do not only with the native manipulators, who also use them to cover up contemporary faults, corruptions, tyrannies, but also with the embattled imperial contexts out of which they came and in which they were felt to be necessary" (Culture and Imperialism <1994> 16).

[asthmaticeog]

29. Nice citation

but it fails utterly to even begin to address my point, let alone refute it. Buh bye, now.

[efhmc]

31. Okay, you win. Now you can take your lovely nonexistent marbles and

go home. Have a lovely night's sleep.

[smirkymonkey]

20. So I guess you aren't interested in

"dilettante" arguments about racism or other forms of discrimination either.

It is not your place to determine what causes suffering for others.

[efhmc]

25. So true and also not yours.

BTW, the use of the word dilettante is demeaning and derogatory. One is not suppose to call another names here even if in French.

[efhmc]

27. Sorry, meant to post to 11.

[camero]

12. Two words

Margaret Thatcher.

I don't think it matters whether a man or a woman holds the reins of power. Both become equally corrupt. And let's not overlook the Females that have become PMs of their respective countries. Are those countries any better for it? Not really.

[smirkymonkey]

19. I think you are missing the point entirely...

Why is it, that I as a white person, can see and understand the subtle and insidious forms of racism in our society, but that most men simply can not see sexism or even acknowledge it's existence.

[camero]

23. Sexism runs both ways

Though in different forms. Women get thier way through manipulation and men through aggression. And before Islamic culture overran them, it was a matriarchal society. And that society was not any better than the patriarchal society.

It is power that is what is being talked about here. Ever hear the saying, "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" It applies to both. I don't really have much sympathy for rich women crying because they're not rich-er.

They do nothing for the rest of us. They just keep us fighting with each other.

[efhmc]

34. What a wise and perceptive comment and really what I wanted to talk

about. The use of power to manipulate others harms us all and what I wanted was a thread where we (male and female) talked about how that had effected us as individuals.

[camero]

38. Thank you, much appreciated

Some examples from my life were the constant reminders of "small body=small penis" generalization, people mistaking kindness for weakness. How I had to be 6' plus in order to be a man.

The generalization of "The clothes make the man" i.e. 3-piece suits where I am much more comfortable wearing jeans and a tee. Though this is a blue collar-white collar thing. You aren't really taken seriously intellectually unless you dress in Armani.

Same result, different road.

[efhmc]

39. I know that size (height) seems somehow to have

something to do with what and who you are as a man in this society or so it would seem. What a weird way to tell what worth a person has. It means that genetics determines your character and we know that is just not true. Just look at bush. He's fairly tall and still he is dumb and had the character of a rotten banana.

[camero]

42. Yes, that's true

Social Darwinism at it's best isn't it? I have seen it from the other side also from my stepfather beating my mother up when I was 18.
It was a 10 year war battling that guy with the physical scars still there for me.

It alerted me to the fact that there was two sides to the same coin.

[efhmc]

43. That must have been a horrible thing to witness, You are a brave

person to have gotten through that. Blessings.

[camero]

45. Me being hurt

Sure beat watching someone get hurt. Especially my own mother. I had to stop it and couldn't watch. It's why I kind of identified with Pres. Clinton's upbringing and thought it was a good thing in my state when they made mandatory arrest policy for domestic violence.

Thanks for your kind words. :)

[efhmc]

46. Good grief. That really makes all these war of words seem inane.

Take care.

[rumguy]

41. good observations there

you got me to think

[smirkymonkey]

15. Yes but even in that 350,000

the men still have an advantage over women when it comes to positions of power - it is not either/or - sex vs. class, there can be both and even a multitude - class, race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, etc.

As far as your last line goes, there is a quote - though I am not sure who said it (Marx, Engels??) - "Religion is what keeps the poor from killing the rich". Seems to be the case in this country anyway.

[Another Bill C.]

4. The creation/evolution process. n/t

n/t

[efhmc]

9. Please elucidate.

[SarahB]

10. That appearance matters more for women

I speak as a women who has faced both sides of the coin. It's not fair that the way in which you, as a woman, are treated by people has so much to do with this. I'm speaking here in generalizations and obviously individuals vary, and many people are more evolved than this, but overall, I can that is a definite factor in our society that affects women far more in a multitude of ways.

[efhmc]

21. I really wanted to know and asked both sexes to tell his/her experiences

with sexism. The guys seem to need to tell us why sexism or their idea of it is okay or that it really does not exist because it all about money and class.

[SarahB]

28. It's always easier

When you have never felt it yourself. I believe many men can see things and understand to a degree though.

[efhmc]

32. I agree. I think many or most men are hurt by this but can't or won't

say it because they don't want to appear weak. I really think that society harms many or most young men by telling them that they have to be a certain way or that they are not truly men. Sad and cruel.

[Nikia]

49. I agree that this is a problem

So many of us women have insecurities about our appearance and it is because it seems to matter so much. Men will say that women judge men by appearance in dating also. That is true to some extent, but a woman's friends usually won't give her a hard time about dating a man who is less attractive than average if he is wonderful in other ways. You have men writing to advice columnists about how they are attractive and professional (high salary) and they are given crap by everyone because they want to marry a wonderful woman who is average in appearance and doesn't wear makeup.
If appearance mattered only for dating, it wouldn't be so bad. It seems that everyone comments on women's appearance. Both men and women judge women negatively by their weight, hair, clothes, and general looks. Except for single women (and maybe gay men) in the dating scene, few people spend much time talking about men's appearance.
Professional situations are a balancing act. I want to dress and use make up to look attractive enough that I won't be judged negatively (because unattractiveness is judged negatively) but not so much that I am judged as a sex object. Men don't need to worry about this. They just need to show up clean and in clean appropriate clothes, like a suit.
Yes, I know that men who show up in ripped jeans and sneakers to a business casual event are judged, as is the 5'2'' guy, the 400 pound guy, and the guy with a large growth on his face. The average guy who wears normal clothes though is not judged, but the average woman is.

[HEyHEY]

24. Guys who won't get in a car driven by a woman

Believe me there are plenty.

[efhmc]

30. Well that's fine with me as long as they are good drivers. I have to do

way too many miles on the road as it is. But if it's my car, they are not driving. They can jolly well take their male domination weirdness out on someone else, taxi or a rental car, whatever.

[Interrobang]

33. The guy at the computer store...

When I called up to ask about prices for custom-built, high-end systems, he heard my voice and told me I would be better to "go to Staples or Office Depot and buy something out of the box, because we do high-end, custom systems here." And I said, "I am looking for a high-end, custom system. I have $2200 to spend on a computer, and I won't be spending it at your store. Goodbye!" (I eventually wound up buying a custom system from a friend of a friend who was more than happy to get me exactly the parts I wanted and needed to exactly my specifications, and under budget, too!)

I find there are a lot of (male) tech people who don't, won't, or can't take me seriously in IT because I'm female... (You see the attitude a lot on Slashdot! A girl geek has to have three times the street cred of a guy geek, and even then, she's not really a peer, just a hot commodity.)

[efhmc]

36. You know that is a good way to lose a sale and in today's market that

is just suicidal. A young man lost an auto sale because he told me to come back with my husband. I really felt sorry for him because he was just relating what his boss told him to say and then later I got a letter asking what was "Wrong" with their service that they did not make a sale. I so know they were blaming that young man and he was just relating what he was told. I bought an entirely different make and model from another company.

[SarahB]

35. Sexist crap guys have to deal with

Men who are emotionally or sensitive in some ways are thought of as weak by other men. Strait men who are like this, especially when they're young have to deal with their sexuality being questioned because of this. Same goes for men who could care less about team sports sometimes.
Men have to deal with being judged more because of how much money they have and too often their entire self worth can get wrapped up in this if they're not careful.

[efhmc]

37. You know I really wonder how guys who are kind and loving get

through life. I know one thing for sure, they are sure loved by people who value those traits. There are too few humans like that around, no matter what sex they are.

[furrylitldevil]

40. No sympathy from me.

I've known waaaaaaay too many privileged girls (and yes, I use that term intentionally) who gripe and complain about not being "equal" when they were raised in a well-to-do household, and who, by all definitions and standards, were much more "equal" than myself. Every female I've heard in my life take a strong position on equality for the sexes has never really known what it's like to do manual work for a living, or to be physically or sexually abused by a man, and let's face it, that's the most heinous of all examples of sexism that anyone is going to name.

I have known quite a few women (and yes, I use that term intentionally) that have been physically or sexually abused for many years who were far more concerned with their own survival to care about the sexual orientation of the current president, or the female struggle for acceptance in the workplace.

Here's one last reality check: If Hilary Clinton decides to run in the next election or the one after, she will win because she is a woman...who was born into priviledge...and who will have inadequacies of her own.

[efhmc]

44. Thanks truly for your thoughts. I was not really wanting to rave about

who did what to whom and why it is certainly wrong but if you had any personal issues that might shed some light on the evil that we do to one another in the name of gender. I read a long poem once about a baby/child call "it". The poem related the child's life. I wish I could find that poem. It was so revealing about our gender stereotypes.

[furrylitldevil]

47. I apologize

I get defensive on this topic because, like I said, most women I've known personally who feel very strongly about sexism and equality are better off socially than me, which throws the whole "society automatically thinks every man is better than every woman" philosophy right out the window. Also, because I've known (and loved) women who really did get oppressed and abused over a long period of time who've had no opinion what so ever on the topic.

As a man, I recognize that there are huge problems with the way things are set up, and that woman are at an immediate disadvantage in a lot of areas, but a lot of woman don't realize that sexism is a two-way street, and men have to deal with it as well, only from different angles.

[efhmc]

48. Well, as far as I am concerned you are a very thoughtful person and

that is the type of human I alway want to know and be around. Keep on being open and aware. Those are truly great human qualities.

[Nikia]

50. In the workplace

A woman is judged both as a woman and a person who does (or wants to do) a particuliar job. If this job isn't something like a day care worker, a woman might get conflicting messages about what she is suppose to be and might not get a particuliar job or be promoted by be judged in two ways.
A woman who doesn't make much small talk or mention her life outside of work might be seen as cold where as an equivalent man might seem focused on his work. A woman that does make small talk or talks about her life outside of work might be judged as a gossip or bringing her problems to work.
A woman who is not competitive enough may be judged negatively as is a woman who too competitive. Her male collegues who are both less competitive and more competitive than her will not be judged negatively though.
In may places, she must prove that she is more intellignet, agressive, competitive, stronger, ect. than the average man who works there because as a woman she is assumed to be none of these things. If she is too much any of these things though, she is judged negatively as a woman and a person. She must walk a fine line. This is why it is difficult for her to get ahead. A male collegue does not face such pressure from both sides.