Don't use the bible to comfort an atheist.

[Courtesy Flush]

I'm trembling right now, I'm so upset. One of my co workers once again approached me with the story of Job as a lesson that was supposed to make me feel better about my wife being terminally ill.

Job's wife was chattel, and he was just as happy with a replacement. It's no like that anymore. My wife is not expendable or replaceable. It's hard enough going through this without being told that I can just go out and get a replacement.

And you call that values!

[HopeHoops]

1. Oh BULLSHIT! The Bible is the best text for justification if you're an athiest.

There are more contradictions in that book than even Congress can come up with in a month. And THAT's SAYIN' something.

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. True, but I think the point here may not be about arguing theology but rather

that the OP's very private pain is being intruded upon. :(

[Tobin S.]

2. Yep, that's a low blow in the worst of circumstances

[Lars39]

3. I'd tell him to eff off and then I'd go speak with someone in HR.

What he said to you is inexcusable rude.

[GreenPartyVoter]

4. The sad thing is most of the time they really think they are helping. If it happens again tell

them that it's not for you. They'll probably come back with a "Christ is for everyone" line. Just tell them no firmly again, and tell them you don't care to have them approach you again.

I am so sorry for what your family is experiencing. That sort of thing your coworker is doing certainly doesn't help :hug:

[RandomThoughts]

5. Most people get the Job story wrong, from my view

It is not God bragging to evil about his servant.

It is that when the bad things attack Job, and he stays in the love of God, it allows a way for God to reach those bad things, and can even bring them home. That is why when he broke down, he could not do the work anymore.

Fast Car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Orv_F2HV4gk

I see the song Fast Car as trying to entice something bad to come after a Job so it can help that thing. Or to me more accurate the story of one such encounter. Even the comment about deal is because that is the side the bad things work from. They go in to make a deal and break the Job, while the Job can sometimes through loving an enemy help them get clean and get home. It is a comment of how that thing felt when it got free by love. Being someone is existing by having free will. It is a very lovely song in my view, and from one that got free. And seeing that love in that song is very special.



In that all the ideas of a Job paying for someone elses sin is not seeing it correctly. It is not some exchange of suffering for good times, it is not in a money concept, but because the bad thing oppressed will have to attack, since it does not have free will when in that mode, it is ordered through hiarchy as a curse. And until finding the light, it will hurt the Job. Then when it finds the light, pull the cord and up it goes, and it is free.

The idea is to show bad things the light of love and get them home. Or that is how I see it, but it is about sharing the love of God, and is a spiritual concept you see everytime someone is nice. Have you ever been nice to someone bitter and they cheer up, sometimes the thing leaves them. Have you ever yourself been in a funk, and with really good thoughts got out of it, and even had a feeling when it happened? Not sure if people notice stuff like that.



I think it is disapointing that many see it a different way, and that is why I also do not hate the curses nor the things that try and implement them, they have no decision in that matter, and until they can find light they are not able to be set free. Some turn to light, some get mashed. Without respect for wrong done, it is still possible to share love by the spirit of love in God. Or that is my view on it, and also in my view the meaning of Jesus taking the sin of the world on the cross.


I don't know if this is part of any doctrine anywhere, but it is what I have observed.

Learned to travel light fast? That was the spirit getting clean fast, and hence being part of light.



And note, I didn't write the song.

[Deep13]

7. "...and he stays in the love of God..."

Then he's an idiot and you're not helping. The OP is not about whether theology is or is not properly understood. It is about not using his horrible grief as a cynical opportunity for a sales pitch.

Job sounds like every victim of wife-beating or child abuse who is trying to rationalize her suffering. "But he really does love me!" Bullshit! If that were true, he wouldn't make you suffer.

[RandomThoughts]

8. Unless it is worth it. Needs of the many not the few.

I was assuming the story of Job was told in the way most tell it, and it doesn't help much thinking that way.

And I was not making any sales pitch? I don't buy or sell, I only noticed many people think badly on the story of Job. Where did I make a sales pitch?

And they don't go to far away, I find many great things from many places.

It is not really suffering when in love.


And if it is a rationalization, note you are speaking about rationalizing hard times from spiritual things, I am not saying respect them, nor agree to do what they want. I am saying not hating, and being nice. Nor am I talking about hard times from things that happen in a persons life, unless those things are from spiritual actions, which is the story of Job. Some bad things can happen from free will choices of people also, and also just because sometimes bad things happen.

[Lucian]

9. +1

[pitohui]

23. in the bible god gambles w. the devil over job's life, it ain't a pretty story

i won't comment on your song commentary, as i know nothing abt it, but i've read the bible and in this story, it's pretty explicit that god and the devil get to drinking and gambling

the devil gambles that job will curse god, god gambles that he won't

there is nothing pretty or attractive in this story, and making excuses for god gambling w. a man's life -- well, let's just say, i understand why the OP was upset

yes, after the casino games were over, and the party was done, god replaced all he'd taken from job in the course of the game but, again, this story is just a very strange one if it's supposed to justify god's actions

it's made obvious that god is a bit of a blowhard and a boaster, not just a gambler "where were YOU when i invented the leviathan?" um, that isn't the sweet jesus of the new testament, this is just flat out "i'm god and i can do as i please because i'm better than you"

it's an old testament story and if you read it for yourself, it ain't a comforting story

it's a story that we are toys for the gods to play with and that's it

however, many a christian doesn't read the bible, he has it read to him by the preacher and so he doesn't know quite what he's saying when he refers to these old tales...

[jmowreader]

43. There's a very big problem with your interpretation

The "bad things" didn't just reach Job, God caused all of them. It was basically a bar bet with the Devil that Job would stick with God no matter what happened, so God completely destroyed Job's life just to prove a point to Satan. Okay, after the Devil gave up God restored him to wholeness, but I thought this was one of the meanest stories in the whole Bible: "God can completely fuck you up for no reason at all." Job didn't deserve all the shit that happened to him, he was one of the good guys. Did that matter? Well, yeah: if Job would have been just an ordinary guy you'd never have heard of him because God wouldn't have destroyed his life.

[mcollins]

10. At least they were trying to comfort you.

Even if they were unartful about it.

As an atheist the worst they could have done is say once they are gone their pain will be gone. Does that make you feel better?

Of course not. Pain, yours, theirs, is not going to go away simply because someone says some words to you. You striking out to fight that pain doesn't make you feel better either.

Talking about how you feel will, talking in a positive manner with others will help you to get through this time.

That is values.

[Deep13]

11. You give the proselytizer too much credit.

That person saw an opportunity and used it.

By the way, I have always been slightly comforted by the departed's escape from suffering. I was irritated when a relative that I love very much and various nurses told me my 51-yr.-old Dad went to "a better place."

There is no way to escape the pain that losing a loved one causes. The only real comfort anyone can offer is understanding and a shoulder to cry on. Those who offer false consolation are false friends.

The OP had every right to be offended by the unwanted religious insistence. He probably handled it more gracefully than I would have. I wish people here would stop making excuses for this kind of unconscionable behavior.

[mcollins]

14. "You give the proselytizer too much credit."

Were you trying to be ironic? "That person saw an opportunity and used it."

A suffering person attributes a negitive aspect from a contact, but it's the person's fault they tried to give comfort? Silly me for thinking maybe someone was trying to be nice.

If I wish you a good day are you going to be pissy and claim that I am trying to force my religious belifes on you? You have no idea what my beliefs are.

I am not sure who is worse- someone who finds offense at every remark, or someone who acts out of cruelity and spite.

[MajorChode]

25. If the proselytizer knew the person was an atheist, it was entirely inappropriate

I'm not even convinced it would be entirely appropriate if the proselytizer didn't know the person's religion because simply assuming they share similar beliefs is a bit rude all in itself, but at least in that instance you can possibly justify it by saying it was just a poor assumption.

Proselytizing itself is rude behavior. Doing it when someone is at one of the worst periods in their life is unconscionable. I don't care if they were just trying to be nice in their own mind. They should know better. Imagine if an atheist tried to turn someone away from God in a similar situation.

Comparing wishing someone a good day to quoting a bible story to an atheist when their wife is terminally ill? I don't see the connection here.

[Deep13]

40. That's not what happened.

If he said "sorry about your wife," I doubt the OP would have been offended. Instead he drew and ill-conceived parallel to Job which basically said that it is okay that something horrible was happening because god was behind it and his wife is replaceable.

Let me ask you this. If it was you who was in this position and I said, "Well don't worry, life has no ultimate meaning anyway so your grief is doesn't matter," how would you have reacted?

Why is it that no matter what extreme emotional distress a nonbeliever is suffering, we are suppose to take the insensitivity and outright offensiveness of others as a kindness. Conversely, we are expected to tiptoe around the outlandish beliefs of others.

[PassingFair]

46. When my father was close to dying from ALS in the hospital for the last

...five days of his life, one of his nurses told me
his death would be "a blessing".

My father's brain and mouth were fully engaged until
his moment of death. All that was really HIM was still
engaged in life.

Loving.
Laughing.
Being.

Fuck that nurse. I'm STILL mad.


His life at that time was difficult,
and certainly NOT what he wanted, but,
as usual, he made the best of it.

[Deep13]

12. I am so sorry to hear about you're wife's illness.

I know how horrible that must be. Obviously, nothing I can say or do will make this any better and that's what is maddening. I lost my father unexpectedly when he was relatively young. I know that's not the same, but I do understand. Let us know if there is anything we can do for you.

[cynatnite]

13. It's completely insenstive...

All I've got is this :hug:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

15. i think anytime someone tells you that your pain is not that bad

they are being an asshole.

sorry, about your wife. really am.

[Roon]

45. My buddy jason is in severe pain and goes to a pain clinic

he takes a bunch of opiates and they still don't help.

I have a little bit of pain some days, sometimes it can get pretty bad but not nearly as bad as jason's pain.

But jason always comforts me and supports me when I am hurting even though we both know that he is hurting way more.

[RandomThoughts]

16. I was just trying to give a thought on the Job story.

Since you mentioned you were told of it by someone and it upset you.

I do hope for the best outcomes and solace in your situation.

[EOTE]

17. The Book of Job told me everything I needed to know about avoiding Christianity permanently.

I'm so sorry to hear about your wife, I wish you both the very best.

[mcollins]

24. Job was a Jew, BTW.

That whole x-ian thing hadn't been made up yet.

[EOTE]

26. Oh, I'm sorry, my bible must have been broken.

I wasn't aware that modern Christianity has abandoned the Old Testament. I guess all those fundies I've seen justifying their hate with passages regarding Leviticus and Sodom and Gomorrah were just drug induced hallucinations.

The point is, it's in the bible and the bible is the religious text of Christians (as well as the Old Testament being the religious text of Jewish people). I've heard so many people telling me that what I REALLY need to read are THESE parts of the bible. I've had others tell me that every part of the bible is the unerring word of God. I find that particularly hard to believe given how many inconsistencies are in it. So, if I can't rely on the book as a whole, I have a really hard time accepting that I need to ignore certain parts and embrace others. I would have thought that such an important book would have been written properly the first time.

[mcollins]

27. The point is you said you used the story of Job

as a reason to dislike x-ians.

Now- by saying since the old testiment doesn't add up by your standards, which old testement, in which language, and which translation?, three religions are not relevant.

If you did read the bible from a historical point of view, which BTW most of it is, you will find alot of things that make sense in context to the time period in which they were written. Since you don't think the bible is real truth, or that Christian, Jew, or Islam are real, the story of Job keeping faith although beset by hardships as a worthy story for people to hear is lost as a teachable moment. Job should have just quit and died is your 'point of view'?

In the new testiment the teachings of Jesus refute most of what the old testiment says, although he does say the old laws remain. However, the story of the Good Sameritan points out that being nice to someone who needs it is a good story to emulate. The fact that jews of the time period of Jesus would have been shocked by this (and so a better teachable moment) are lost to you.

I've studied the bible, the torah, and the talmud (and the koran- and others) as history and as literature. There are things to be learned from each, even if you do not believe in any god.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mcollins]

38. My, what a hateful little guppy you are!

I was warned by other members here to watch out for the +1000 post bullies. I really didn't think anyone would be so juvenile- but I stand corrected.

Since you must have read through my journal here on DU to pick up the fact you know I am from Fort Collins you have gone out of your way to be rude, insulting, and petty. Stocking is against the rules in DU, so I doubt you ran my IP address to pinpoint my location. Did you do a google search for my name? I think the pictures on the internet make me look heavy even though my BMI is 20%. Yeah- at my age I do need to loose a few pounds.

I won't apologize for my spelling. I was diagnosed late in life with a rather severe dyslexia. When I was a kid the bullies called me stupid, retarded, loser. They didn't have a name for not being able to spell other than those cruel hateful terms. I did get though High School and during a brief stint in the Navy, I was diagnosed. Since then I've graduated College and have a Masters Degree in Special Education. I now work with kids with problems like mine.

I stay away for the most part from any forums since even with years of treatment, training, counseling I am sensitive about by problem with putting words together correctly. I can read your words and most of the time they make no sense until I try to look at them. Then they fix themselves. Same with my words. Even after spell check, when I remember it, they look right even when they don't. Talking with my therapist he suggested I become a member of a few on line pages in order to practice. I chose DU because the majority of the people here believe in the same things I do. Of course, there are always a few who prey on anyone they think is weak.

Bullies are often lacking in self esteem. If I was a Fruedist I would say your inner anger was a result of sexual abuse from your father. Native Americans would say you just have a bad soul. I have another word for you but rules on DU must be followed by us low post count freshman.

So, what have we learned here? 1) The best way to deal with a bully is to confront them in a calm rational manner. 2) Use the rules of the forum to protect yourself. You have personally attacked me and stocked me. Oh, look! An Alert Button. .
3) Tolerance for others is a keystone in the beliefs of the Liberal. You haven't shown anything other than lockstep hate and talking point spew from the DNC (reference your position on Gibbs in various posts. Hmm. The search function is very handy).

You have a nice day.

[EOTE]

39. I don't think you get it.

First of all, I said nothing about disliking Christians. I said that book was enough to turn me off of Christianity. Do you see a difference there?

And yes, I definitely do NOT believe that the bible is real truth, far from it. One of the reasons that I've always hated the Book of Job is because I did read it in its historical context, and it has the same context to this very day. It basically says, don't be upset with what you've got, no matter how little that might be. Don't be upset that there are people actively trying to make your life worse when they've got far more than any one person should have. Nope, don't be upset because everything is going to work out in the end, if not in this life, then definitely the after life. How many people do you think believed this tripe only to never have things work out for them? Perhaps faith made their lives better, but I prefer to live in reality. Tripe like the Book of Job just gets people to accept far less than they deserve.

I'm an agnostic, I'll probably be one all my life. I know that there are a few portions of the bible that encourage good deeds, but there's far too much tripe like the Book of Job that either attempts to satiate people who shouldn't be satiated or even worse, draws people to war and hatred.

Humanity has progressed a great deal since the days of the bible and decent people don't need the bible to tell them how to live moral and decent lives. If people are looking for a moral text now, I can safely recommend to them one that doesn't justify rape and owning women along with myriad other horrific things.

[mcollins]

42. Now, I respect your position and see where you are going.

I just think you are wrong is all. But that is ok, as you think I am as well. We can still get along regardless.

For arguement's sake I don't think people have progressed at all. BUT- we can argue that position on another thread sometime.

Do have a nice day!

[EOTE]

44. I would agree that people haven't progressed...

in fact, I'd perhaps say we're a more self absorbed, greedier people now, 2000+ years later.

You have a good one as well.

[cwydro]

18. Sometimes people are just clumsy trying to help.

I don't know this person so have no way of judging.

But I know I am terrible for saying the wrong thing...I always think I said the wrong thing.

I am very clumsy around grief. I am actually quite inept at expressing emotions altogether.

Having said that....I am sorry for what you are going through.

[Kali]

22. you did good

and I totally relate

[abq e streeter]

19. I am so sorry that your wife and you are going through this.

I sometimes worry that when I tell people here that I am praying for them, or their family member etc, that I've unintentionally offended them as I know there are many atheists here, and I respect their right to that belief. But I always just leave it at that or try to clearly explain that my belief in an eternal soul etc, is just that; my belief, and is not superior to nor more likely to be correct than anyone else's beliefs. I understand your annoyance with that person's trying to shove their beliefs down your throat at such an already sad and stressful time. I do, however, somewhat naively impute good intentions on most people, and I would guess that this person meant no harm, and in their own way, thought they were trying to be kind and comforting to you. Unfortunately,it never occurs to too many unthinking "believers" to just back off sometimes when that is called for, like your situation, and I certainly understand and appreciate why you are so furious with this person. Again, I don't know what to say except that I am so, so sorry that all this is happening .

[pitohui]

20. i'm so sorry to hear abt yr wife

as others say, sometimes people are just clueless and don't know what to say

for many christians, at a loss for why god allows cruelty, they fall back into quoting these standard stories, and job is considered a classic, they don't mean any harm by it

they simply don't know what else to say

i doubt your co worker meant that god will just replace yr wife later, even his preacher wouldn't be that nervy i don't think, he just mis-spoke would be my guess

quotes and cliches are painful to hear but people just don't what else to say, they're fumbling

[Kali]

21. I could have written what cwydro wrote

sorry you have to deal with the religious, good intentions or not, on top of the suffering of your wife.

[Rabrrrrrr]

28. It's not only a shitty way to 'comfort' someone, it's an utter misuse and misunderstanding of Job.

Prosperity fuckers turn it into non-theological hogwash, and the fundies and rightwingers use it to keep people down and pretend to compassion while deftly avoiding actually having to show any.

I'm very sorry for your pain with assholes driving more nails into your situation, and the pain you have from your wife's (and your) suffering. There are no good answers, only friendly ears to listen to and help bear your story in empathy and compassion.

[Curmudgeoness]

29. Of all the comforting places they could have gone in the bible,

Job is about the worst. Uh, well at least you don't have boils all over your body.

I am sorry to hear about your wife's situation, and what you are going through with her. Take comfort where you can.

And there is nothing wrong with telling the bible-thumper that he/she is not helping.

[jaded_old_cynic]

30. I know what you mean.

Your co worker obviously doesn't get it. Try not to let it get to you. Easier said than done I know.

When my terminally ill husband was moved to Hospice, I heard all kinds of phrases considered to be "words of comfort" from all different sources to the point where I thought I would go goofy. Even Hospice themselves as much as I appreciated their kindness and caring, failed in their attempts at counseling. I know the counselor meant well, but the only thing she would talk about was jesus this and jesus that. I told her I was an atheist several times, but I guess she just couldn't get her mind around how to counsel someone who isn't a believer.

I'm so sorry your wife is sick. It's a long nightmare when a spouse becomes critically ill. The feeling of total helplessness.... It's an awful experience. Our loved ones are never replaceable. It's going on 4 years for me now since my husband passed and I still miss him terribly. I always will. But everyday it hurts a tiny bit less. And please, if you need to speak to someone who gets it, please don't hesitate to PM me.

Take care.

Peace to you and your wife.

[lightningandsnow]

31. That's so insensitive.

I'm really sorry. :hug:

[Pryderi]

32. I'd recommend Kahlil Gibran and Thich Nhat Hahn

[hippywife]

35. ...

Much better choices. :thumbsup:

[BeachBaby]

50. +1

:thumbsup:

[RainDog]

33. I know. It's amazing how people who find value in the stories of the bible

...cannot understand that many of us find those same stories horrific.

I'm sorry to hear you're going through such a difficult time with your wife. But your love for her, as is evidenced here, is a beautiful thing to see.

She's very lucky to have found such love. I hope you will have much more time together.

[hippywife]

36. Wishing you both solace, peace, and comfort

wherever you choose to find it through all of this. :hug:

[Xipe Totec]

37. I have always found inspiration in works of fiction nt

[rurallib]

41. So sorry to hear of your wife's situation.

always sorry to hear of insensitive people who make another's suffering an opportunity to push their beliefs.
I admire your restraint in not buying a bible to smack him with.
Should he bother you again, I hope you can politely tell him to just go away. Not sure if I could.

Hope you have wonderful memories of your wife when she passes. My hopes for a peaceful transition.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

47. So sorry CF. That was inexcusably tacky.

I'm so sorry to hear that, CF, I really am. Why can't people offer compassion without their personal religious overlay?

Read the poem "Abou ben Adhem" by Leigh Hunt for some perspective.

From Wikipedia:


As an interesting side note, he was quoted during the opening of the Alabama Constitutional Convention of 1901 as follows: "Abou Ben Adhem awakened from a dream, found an angel, writing in a book of gold the name of those whom love of God has blessed. "And is mine there?" he asked. But the angel answered, "Nay." "I pray thee, then," he said, "write me as one who loves his fellow men." The angel wrote and vanished. The next night it came again, with a great awakening light, and showed the names whom love of God had blessed. And lo! Ben Adhem's name led all the rest." "<3>

[GoneOffShore]

48. Sorry to hear this CF.

I'm sure this will be of little comfort, though I'm not sure -

A friend of mine said to me when Mrs GoS was diagnosed with cancer - Pain is inevitable. Suffering isn't.

Hold on to the good memories, make her last days as pleasant as you possibly can and make sure that when she finally leaves you, it is with dignity.

There was an excellent piece in the New Yorker about how difficult it is to die in comfort and with dignity. It's called "Letting Go".

The link is here - "Letting Go"

[Gold Metal Flake]

49. I sorry for what is happening to your wife and to you.

My kindest thoughts go out to you and yours.