How faithful should we be to foreign names of foreign places?

[Bucky]

For instance, if I post a thread about far Cathay, most people would, justifiably, call me a twit, even if I'm talking about that country from a time when most westerners referred to the Middle Kingdom as 'Cathay'. I'm expected to call it "China," although "The Middle Kingdom" is an acceptable synonym. But the Chinese name for China isn't "China;" it's "Zhōngguó" although the less Pinyin-like spelling of "Zhong-Guo" might get the point across and is easier to type. Only very few people would recognize the reference however.

Yet there are plenty of other countries that have in years past made efforts to see their country's names Anglicized into a form closer to the indigenous name (Ceylon to Sri Lanka, Cambodia to Kampuchea, Persia to Iran, Bohemia to Czech Republic).

Whatever form it takes still, obviously, isn't a perfect replication of the country's native name. It's just a stab at making the name of a country closer in English to what it is in the dominant home language. But this is really a matter of marketing and accidental custom. For instance it would be more accurate to Anglicize the name "Turkey" as "Turkiya" as it is in Spanish, since the name "Türkiye" is not comfortably rendered by English tongues. But of course no one does that.

Some maps have started labeling Greenland as "Kalaallit Nunaat" but there seems to be no effort made to start calling Greece "Hellas" or "Ellas," which is certainly an easily remembered & rendered place name. We don't write Deutschland, Espana (with or without the ñ), Nihon, or Italia, but the reconversion of Ruthenia => White Russia => Byelorussia => Belarus constantly seeks to keep historical mapmakers on their toes.

So what should it be? Should there be some kind of rule? Is there some historical cut off date for when you use native names and when you use Anglicized misnomers, like Polska or Poland, or Anglo-simplifications like Libya instead of Libiyyah? Is it a respect issue, since the ones that get the redesignation tend to be poorer countries? Should we let the lawyers decide?

If I keep on writing "Finland" do you promise not to Suomi?

[Capn Sunshine]

1. I think we need a place for Lounge post Awards

This one certainly epitomizes every spectrum of the Lounge lifestyle.

[cwydro]

7. ...

:smoke:

I love this post.

[valerief]

2. Off topic, but...Istanbul not Constantinople

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnTzM-LhvTY

[KamaAina]

14. Constantinople is only acceptable as

the uptown New Orleans street where Ignatius J. Reilly and his muscatel-soaked mom lived. :-)

[Kali]

3. I think RandomThoughts should answer this post.

:D

[MiddleFingerMom]

4. ...

.
.
.
.
.
:thumbsup:
.
.
.

[on point]

5. Let the native speakers decide over time

The native language of the speaker or writer, that is the person talking about the place, should make the determination. All languages have their own rendering of the places that makes sense not only from a pronunciation point of view, but also from an historical point of view and their own cultural context.

To the degree that places themselves try to change their names, especially if it as about respect, native speakers should try to respect that change within reason. This takes time to evolve and be accepted, but in no case should it be in the native language of the place that has changed its name. It should still be rendered in the native language. It is, after all, that language's name for the place. What's more is it needs to be accepted by the people speaking the language. Thus Germany is Germany, not Deutschland nor Allemagne (French).

Kampuchea renders well in English, accords with English naming conventions and is likely to be accepted in English over time with practice. Other languages will have to make their own determinations however. Turkiya is never likely to be accepted because it is not an English name and does not follow the naming/ spelling conventions that English uses to name countries. Zhong-Guo has a better chance of acceptance than Zhōngguó because it uses only valid English characters to spell the name and the spelling somewhat accords with English standards. Again though, that does not mean it will work or be the same in other languages which have other naming conventions. Suppose there is a language out there that always adds a prefix or a suffix to a name to designate it as a 'place'. That makes the name different than what the country is proposing for itself, but it works inside of the native language.

Bottom line, native speakers determine how to name and pronounce a country name, not the inhabitants of the country being named. Stay with the native speakers, and put the new name in parenthesis or quotes side by side with the native one if trying to help the evolution, until it is accepted. This is the convention when using specialist terms or foreign terms.

[RandomThoughts]

6. A rose by any other name?

What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;



If you decide by labels, and not what is inside a label, then from my observation only insanity awaits, for a person, or a place is far more then a label picked by random chance or other bias to describe it, and if you give power to a name, you devalue all that makes up so much more of a person or place.

[Diclotican]

8. Bucky

Bucky

Wel, it depend of where you are using the names I guess.. I'm not sure about how english, but in many other languages we use a kind of "standardized international use" when come to name of places, or nations. I'm sure that most chinese would be pleased if you was using the spelling Zhoung-Guo instead of China, who by the way have been used by others to identify China long before English was tle dominant language.. Even Latin, and the romes was using a name, who is translated to China in the few text that have survived to our own day... (Yes even China and Roma had some few contact between them) And most pepole in the world, wil know if you use the term China, to understand that it is the country China and not the porselene...

When it come to Finland, you can use both, as Finland/Suomi is legal names of the nordic country.. Finland is more an swedish invention, as what today is Finland for more than 1000 year, was an integrated part of Sweden, and even had their own nobility with some clout in the old government of Sverige

Even my own country Norway, have at least two official names.. One is Norge, the other is Noreg, both is stamped on the front of our passport, but for the most part Norge is still used by the majority in Norway.. As Finland is used by the majority in Finland, even tho Suomi is also used by the finish speaking majority. Finland is more for the swedish speaking minority.. But Finland/Suomi is used by everyone...

Diclotican

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

9. We mis-name Vienna, but enjoy the Wiener Schnitzel

So we get it right sometimes.

:hi:

[TZ]

10. Well then in the spirit of your post

In order to stay consistent with how France and some other countries call us, I say we rename this country The States United!!
:rofl:
I think part of the name issues has to do with how each language uses stucture and grammer. If you look at maps made for those foreign countries you will see that they conform to their rules, not ours.

[Iggo]

11. My rule: Get the vowels right, but don't go overboard on the consonants.

Just like everybody else in the world, it's okay if we talk with an (in this case, American) accent.

[MajorChode]

12. I don't think it bothers most people in those areas

I've traveled all over the world and as long as people get the sense that you're at least making an attempt to respect their culture, they aren't offended. What is generally offensive to many is people who make little to no attempt to learn anything about the culture and expect other people to adapt to them while they are the ones who are visiting. That behavior comes across as arrogance and arrogance is pretty much universally not well received.

[Bucky]

13. MajorChode, you are a fine representative of your native county: Meiguo (Mikuk)

Or, formally speaking, the United States of Meiguo

[david_vincent]

15. I'm having Nunavut

[Bucky]

16. Algeria if you keep on making such horrible puns

[Posteritatis]

17. I've seen maps where they tried very hard to use the local names for everything

It was a really interesting effect and I'd love to see it more often, if just as an option.

First started noticing the effect in my classical history courses; using the local names for various cultures (when we had them, of course) had a neat impact that way. "The Etruscans" was a dusty antiquarian label; "the Rasenna" were "real."