Bible help needed:

[Mobius]

Isn't it true that the second fall of man or Armegeddon, end of the world...etc...begins in the garden of Eden, sometimes referred to as "Ur"? Eden is referred to as being where the Tigrus and Euphrades rivers meet, which is of course in IRAQ ! Perhaps Republican Christians might see this as a reason to get out of Iraq.

[MsUnderstood]

1. I'm not a biblical scholar

But if that were true, how would that prompt the religioius zealots ruining our country to do anything different?

THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT SAYS: Bush was chosen and ordained by GOD, and if that means he ushers in the final Armagedon than thank you sir for bringing heaven on earth a few years early. . .

[absyntheNsugar]

2. Well, that is if you believe Revelation is talking about armageddon

Many Christian Scholars believe it to be instead about the fall of Jerusalem - and that it was a book written in code from Roman Christians to their counterparts in Judea basically warning them about the coming destruction.

Lots of references are there - Nero is 666, the Scorpions Heads/Lions Bodies is how the Roman Chariots looked.

This may help:

http://www.geocities.com/k9ocu/Interpreting_Revelation.htm

[Intelsucks]

3. aka Babylon? The daughter of Babylon?

Some say Babylon is Iraq... Some say it is America. Geographically, it certainly is Iraq. Descriptively, it sounds like America.

So either Iraq becomes the financial center of the world, or The US never leaves, and it is America... Occupied Babylon? :shrug:

[Fenris]

4. Theological geography is not indicative of temporal geography

And don't they want the world to end so they can ascend and everyone else can go to Hell?

[Trajan]

5. Book of Revelation ...

Written by Cerinthus, attributed to 'John' ....

Cerinthus was a second century heretic ....

One would think that the biblical associations with Iraq are not lost on the Theocrat in Chief ....and his vicious cabal ...

on edit: ... added following from 'NewAdvent.com', the Catholic Encyclopedia website ....

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01594b.htm

-snip-

ARGUMENTS AGAINST ITS AUTHENTICITY

The Alogi, about A.D. 200, a sect so called because of their rejection of the logos-doctrine, denied the authenticity of the Apocalypse, assigning it to Cerinthus (Epiphanius, LI, ff, 33; cf. Iren., Adv. Haer., III, 11, 9). Caius, a presbyter in Rome, of about the same time, holds a similar opinion. Eusebius quotes his words taken from his Disputation: "But Cerinthus by means of revelations which he pretended were written by a great Apostle falsely pretended to wonderful things, asserting that after the resurrection there would be an earthly kingdom" (Hist. Eccl., III, 28). The most formidable antagonist of the authority of the Apocalypse is Dionysius, Bishop of Alexandria, disciple of Origen. He is not opposed to the supposition that Cerinthus is the writer of the Apocalypse. "For", he says, "this is the doctrine of Cerinthus, that there will be an earthly reign of Christ, and as he was a lover of the body he dreamed that he would revel in the gratification of the sensual appetite". He himself did not adopt the view that Cerinthus was the writer. He regarded the Apocalypse as the work of an inspired man but not of an Apostle (Eusebius, Hist. Eccl., VII, 25). During the fourth and fifth centuries the tendency to exclude the Apocalypse from the list of sacred books continued to increase in the Syro-Palestinian churches. Eusebius expresses no definite opinion. He contents himself with the statement: "The Apocalypse is by some accepted among the canonical books but by others rejected" (Hist. Eccl., III, 25). St. Cyril of Jerusalem does not name it among the canonical books (Catech. IV, 33-36); nor does it occur on the list of the Synod of Laodicea, or on that of Gregory of Nazianzus. Perhaps the most telling argument against the apostolic authorship of the book is its omission from the Peshito, the Syrian Vulgate. But although the authorities giving evidence against the authenticity of the Apocalypse deserve full consideration they cannot annul or impair the older and unanimous testimony of the churches. The opinion of its opponents, moreover, was not free from bias. From the manner in which Dionysius argued the question, it is evident that he thought the book dangerous as occasioning crude and sensual notions concerning the resurrection. In the West the Church persevered in its tradition of apostolic authorship. St. Jerome alone seemed to have been influenced by the doubts of the East.

-snip-

Interesting ....

[aquart]

6. Eden was Ur? Since when?

Ur was a city. Abraham came from Ur.

Now let's get really complicated: <http://users.cwnet.com/millenia/eden.htm>

<http://www.google.com/search?q=Ur+Eden+Armageddon&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8>

That was fun. Thank you.

[AntiCoup2K4]

9. Ur was a city in Chaldea

Even today, there are Iraqis who call themselves Chaldeans. Tariq Aziz was one of them.

[citizen snips]

7. Read the book of Revelation.

[Mobius]

10. no

[AntiCoup2K4]

8. There are indeed references to the Euphrates rivers in prophecy

Revelation 9:14
Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

These "angels" would likely be of the fallen variety. Or demons, in other words. Meaning some serious shit would be following.


Revelation 16:12
And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

There is another scripture that makes reference to an army of a million men coming from the east. Only China or India could raise such an army, realistically, and the dried up riverbed would give them a "highway" by which to make the westward trip to Armegeddon.

[Mobius]

11. Thank you for the reference.

Revelation 9:14
Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.


Revelation 16:12
And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

[DulceDecorum]

12. Forcing the Rapture

While the American secretary of state shuttles back and forth between Yasser Arafat and Ariel Sharon, trying desperately to cobble together a) a ceasefire, and b) some basis for a settlement of the world’s most tiresome perpetual crisis, it behooves us to examine the issue of … the red heifer.
Say what?
You heard me, I said the red heifer….
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j041502.html

Now that you have digested at least some of this, consider Bush's actions for the past several months. Without even needing to invoke a conspiracy theory, his behavior suddenly makes sense — in a bizarro world way. Thus you have his constant use of the words "evildoers" and his passage of judgment on other nations as "evil," his obsession with attacking Iraq and, if he had his way, also Iran (the modern-day counterparts to "Persia" — at least close enough for government work!), his willingness to use nuclear weaponry (after all, Armageddon is part of the plan), his creation of a shadow government, his seemingly inexplicable refusal to make any effort to restrain Sharon, his surrounding himself with fundies, regardless of their qualifications (only the "pure" can participate in the "glory" of the final hours!), his determination to knock down the wall between church and state, his encouragement of Ashcroft's prayer meetings in the Justice Building, etc.
http://www.unknownnews.net/apocalypsenow.html

Q: Let's talk about the first anniversary approaching of the war in Iraq. Six more U.S. soldiers killed this past weekend, bringing the total, by our count, to 564 since the start of the war.
Rumsfeld: I think you're mixing up those that were killed in action, and those that have been killed in accidents and various other things. I think it's something like 379 that have been killed in action.
Q: You're right, this is for both hostile and so-called non-hostile reasons, but still 564 American troops have died, because of their service.
Rumsfeld: More than that, if you count Afghanistan, and if you count accidents in the United States.
Q: Well, I guess the question is, looking back over this past year, was it worth it?
Rumsfeld: My goodness yes. There's just no question, 25 million people in Afghanistan are free, 25 million people in Iraq are free. They've been liberated, the schools are functioning, there's a new interim constitution that protects the rights of women, and will protect minorities, and ethnic elements in that country. It's an advance for freedom, and the pressure that's being put on terrorists, in Afghanistan, in Iraq and elsewhere in the world is clearly advancing freedom and making the world a safer place.
http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2004/tr20040314-secdef0541.html


Who is this coming from Edom,
from Bozrah, with his garments stained crimson?
Who is this, robed in splendor,
striding forward in the greatness of his strength?

"It is I, speaking in righteousness,
mighty to save."

2 Why are your garments red,
like those of one treading the winepress?

3 "I have trodden the winepress alone;
from the nations no one was with me.
I trampled them in my anger
and trod them down in my wrath;
their blood spattered my garments,
and I stained all my clothing.
4 For the day of vengeance was in my heart,
and the year of my redemption has come.
5 I looked, but there was no one to help,
I was appalled that no one gave support;
so my own arm worked salvation for me,
and my own wrath sustained me.
6 I trampled the nations in my anger;
in my wrath I made them drunk
and poured their blood on the ground."
http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=ISA+63&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on

[Mobius]

13. yep, sounds like Bush

I have a problem with the "striding forward in the greatness of his strength?"

GW has neither greatness or strength.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

14. Sounds as if some brainwashed and not-too-bright fundamentalist

has been talking to you.

Ur is an archaeological site in Iraq, reputed to be the hometown of Abraham.

Armeggedon is the Greek form of Har Meggido, which is a place name in Israel. It's nowhere near Iraq.

Most reputable Biblical scholars believe that Revelation was an allegory written during the Roman persecutions of Christians, intended to encourage them by saying that the Romans would get theirs eventually.