Perfect Pitch: Musical Training Giveth and Age Taketh Away

[Lionel Mandrake]

Like many other musicians, amateur and professional, after taking piano lessons as a child I discovered that I could name notes that someone else played on a piano, even if I couldn't see the keyboard. Now that I am old, I can't do this any more. I still have a sense of absolute pitch, but it is not reliable. A piece that I know to be in C sounds to me as if it were being played in C# or D.

What was once a blessing is now a curse.

I asked an ENT doc about this, and he had never heard of such a problem. The equipment in his office can measure hearing loss but not perception of musical pitch.

I used to think it was just me, but I recently found a website which tells me I am not alone. According to the University of California Genetics of Absolute Pitch Study,

"None of our subjects past the age of 51 identified all of the tones perfectly, unlike their younger counterparts. We discovered that pitch perception tends to go sharp as subjects age. Some subjects name notes consistently a semi-tone sharp by middle-age, while others name tones a full tone sharp as they enter their 60's."

Read more:
http://perfectpitch.ucsf.edu/study/

Fellow musicians:
If you have a sense of absolute pitch, enjoy it while you can!
If you don't have it, don't be jealous--you'll be better off without it when you are old.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

1. Perfect pitch is overrated as a skill.

I've been a musician since age five, and never worried about it.
I'd be far more worried about losing my hearing.

[bluesbassman]

3. I second that. Next to hearing I'd be more concerned about losing my ability to keep time.

Drummers get real cranky when you step on their beat. :)

[Lionel Mandrake]

5. If you have a stroke,

you might lose your ability to keep time. I doubt that it would ever happen otherwise.

[Lionel Mandrake]

4. You're right.

A sense of relative pitch works just fine.

Musicians in loud bands do tend to suffer hearing loss (which is not to say that they go deaf). People who listen to loud music also tend to suffer hearing loss. When I can clearly hear the music from someone else's earphone, I know he is not doing himself any good.

When I see people using jackhammers or leaf blowers without ear protection, I know they are damaging their ears. It's such a macho thing to do.

[Brickbat]

2. I find this reassuring. I had perfect pitch as a high-school and college student, but have found

that when I tune instruments to ear now, I tune them sharp. I wondered about this too. Thanks for the link.

[Lionel Mandrake]

8. I too find it reassuring

that I'm not the only geezer with this problem.

[Xipe Totec]

6. You're going to hate me for this then...

Madredeus o sonho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apQ2eDUx7Ho

[Lionel Mandrake]

10. I don't understand Portuguese.

I won't hate you unless you translate the song or the comments. ;-)

[Xipe Totec]

12. Lyrics should not mater in questions of pitch

But since you asked...

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Xipe%20Totec/87

[Lionel Mandrake]

13. Okay, now I hate you.

Just kidding. ;-)

It's a lovely song.

[Xipe Totec]

14. It's the pitch that drives me to madness

A high pitch that most women hate, some men despise, but others like myself adore.

[Lionel Mandrake]

22. Ooh ... it hurts so good!

;-)

[Odin2005]

20. Very pretty voice!

:loveya:

[Orrex]

7. The closest I've ever come to perfect pitch was when I stepped in a bucket of roofing tar

I can generally name the note that's being played if I can see the sheet music and I know how the song goes and I can see the keyboard, strings, valves, etc. and you have the keyboard, strings, valves, etc. clearly labeled with the letter for each note.


Otherwise, not so much.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

9. rofl

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Lionel Mandrake]

11. groan ... n/t

[trackfan]

15. I don't have it, and have always found it hard to even conceptualize.

Sometimes I can guess by testing a note against my vocal range, but it is really just a guess and not a "knowing".

As an aside - I had a phenomenon occur which other musicians may find interesting. A few years ago I had some kind of "spotted fever", possibly West Nile Virus. It was a real "brain" disease, in any case, and I had high fever, delirium, headaches, and buzzing in my head and ears. At some point, though I still had a lot of buzzing, I felt better enough to sit at the piano and play. When I did so the piano sounded horribly out of tune. I theorized that what I might be hearing was the actual out-of-tune-ness of equal tempered tuning. So I did a test. I know that all the fifths on a piano are slightly flat. I played the C below middle C and held the note until I could clearly hear the harmonic G above middle C. Then, when I played the actual G above middle C, it sounded like F-sharp! It was very keenly off. By the time I had fully recovered, several weeks later, I no longer noticed this effect; everything was back to normal.

[Lionel Mandrake]

16. That is truly bizarre.

The problem might have been in your ears or in your brain. I'm not an MD and wouldn't want to hazard a guess.

I'm glad you recovered with no permanent damage.

Let's see -- a fifth is seven semitones, while an octave is twelve semitones, so the frequency ratio for a fifth is

2^(7/12) = 1.4983 (very close to 1.5) assuming equal temperament, and assuming that an octave has a frequency ratio of 2.

In a real piano, the octaves are stretched, but so are the fifths, and the two effects should approximately cancel. I'm guessing that how the fifth compares to the harmonic (modulo an octave) would depend on your piano. Everything sounds more in tune on a 9' concert grand than on a spinet.

[laconicsax]

17. I used to want perfect pitch, but I grew out of it.

Once I developed good intervallic relative pitch and good harmonic identification, I realized that perfect pitch wasn't that important.

What I do envy is the people who have perfect recall--I went to school with a guy who would buy a CD at the beginning of a short tour, listen to it once in the van, and be able to play every solo by memory and have a couple of the arrangements fully transcribed by the next day. By the end of the tour, he'd have every arrangement on the album fully transcribed. :wow:

[Lionel Mandrake]

18. Perfect recall would be nice.

We can't all be geniuses. We can improve by practicing, but I am too lazy to do much of that.

A tourist stops an old lady on the street to ask directions: "How do I get to Carnegie Hall?"
She answers: "Practice, young man. Practice!"

[Odin2005]

19. I have perfect pitch.

I'm not a musician myself, though I do greatly enjoy music.

[Lionel Mandrake]

21. Let me guess ...

I'll bet you had some sort of musical training before you were seven years old.

[Odin2005]

23. Nope.

[Lionel Mandrake]

25. That's the second time my crystal ball failed me.

I'll have to get it fixed.

According to http://perfectpitch.ucsf.edu/study/

"Based the absolute pitch survey and auditory test data we have collected to date, we learned that the majority of individuals with absolute pitch began formal musical training before age 7."

[csziggy]

39. Hmmm, I wonder if exposure to music early along can also promote it?

I did not have formal musical training as a young child but my oldest sister did. From my earliest memories I listened to her practice - piano, clarinet, bassoon, oboe, etc. She had perfect pitch. I can/could hear when music was off but since I did not get the formal training I never could name the notes.

[Lionel Mandrake]

41. Could be.

According to the folks at UCSF, perfect pitch tends to run in families, i.e., there is a genetic component, which they are trying to elucidate. It also seems to depend on some sort of acquisition as a young child.

The way I see it, music is like language. Evolution favors the acquisition of language among small children. The areas in the brain that evolved to learn language are hijacked by music. Perfect pitch is to music what a phoneme is to language: the younger you are, the easier it is to learn.

[csziggy]

44. It does seem to run in our family

My grandmother was a concert qualified pianist, my oldest sister was extremely musically talented and both her sons are also. I can hear when music is off, but as for playing, I have no sense of timing. But we were all exposed to good music from early ages and encouraged to play to the best of our ability.

What's funny is that Mom loves music but is tone deaf - she says she could never sing us to sleep when we were babies because we'd all start crying as soon as she started singing! I suspect we could tell she was off key even then.

[frogmarch]

24. I've never had perfect pitch, and maybe

that is why some singers (Judy Garland especially) have always sounded to me as if they were singing off key. Judy Garland has always sounded flat to me.

[Lionel Mandrake]

26. Judy Garland sounds pretty accurate to me,

although some notes start off flat and slide up to where they belong, e.g., on the second note of the song "Some - wherrrrre ..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhzbzwPNgXA

It would sound worse if she started off sharp and slid down.

You may have an exceptionally accurate sense of relative pitch. I don't think this has anything to do with presence or absence of absolute pitch.

There are people who can tell (without a tuning fork or other reference tone) if a pitch is off by 5 cents.

[guitar man]

27. "Perfect pitch"

Is when you can throw a banjo into the dumpster from 20 yards away without touching the sides :P

[Lionel Mandrake]

30. Ouch.

Why would you want to do that? :shrug:

banjo |ˈbanjō|
noun ( pl. -jos or -joes)
a stringed musical instrument with a long neck and a round open-backed body consisting of parchment stretched over a metal hoop like a tambourine, played by plucking or with a plectrum. It is used esp. in American folk music.

ORIGIN mid 18th cent.: originally a black American alteration of earlier bandore; probably based on Greek pandoura ‘three-stringed lute.

Above is a quotation from the New Oxford American Dictionary on my Mac. Below is an image from "banjo" in Wikipedia

[Bertha Venation]

28. I had relative pitch

Now when singing a song with the radio, I am often off-key. It's embarrassing and distressing. :(

I'm sorry you have this going on.

[Lionel Mandrake]

31. We've both lost something.

My problem was predictable, like presbyopia, except that it pertains to the ears rather than the eyes.

Your problem is something I wouldn't have expected, although I haven't looked into it. I didn't know it was possible to lose a sense of relative pitch. I am sorry this has happened to you.

BTW, are you a fan of David Llewelyn Wark Griffith, or is there some irony in your user name? (I'm guessing the latter, but my crystal ball is still not working very well.)

[Tuesday Afternoon]

29. pitch is a cool word --

— vb (used with it as subject )



1.

to hurl or throw (something); cast; fling



2.

( usually tr ) to set up (a camp, tent, etc)



3.

( tr ) to place or thrust (a stake, spear, etc) into the ground



4.

( intr ) to move vigorously or irregularly to and fro or up and down



5.

( tr ) to aim or fix (something) at a particular level, position, style, etc: if you advertise privately you may pitch the price too low



6.

( tr ) to aim to sell (a product) to a specified market or on a specified basis



7.

( intr ) to slope downwards



8.

( intr ) to fall forwards or downwards



9.

( intr ) (of a vessel) to dip and raise its bow and stern alternately



10.

cricket to bowl (a ball) so that it bounces on a certain part of the wicket, or (of a ball) to bounce on a certain part of the wicket



11.

( intr ) yaw Compare roll (of a missile, aircraft, etc) to deviate from a stable flight attitude by movement of the longitudinal axis about the lateral axis



12.

( tr ) (in golf) to hit (a ball) steeply into the air, esp with backspin to minimize roll



13.

( tr ) music





a.to sing or play accurately (a note, interval, etc)





b. ( usually passive ) (of a wind instrument) to specify or indicate its basic key or harmonic series by its size, manufacture, etc



14.

( tr ) cards to lead (a suit) and so determine trumps for that trick



15.

baseball





a. ( tr ) to throw (a baseball) to a batter





b. ( intr ) to act as pitcher in a baseball game



16.

dialect ( Southwest English ) to snow without the settled snow melting



17.

informal ( US ), ( Canadian ) in there pitching taking part with enthusiasm



18.

pitch a tale , pitch a yarn to tell a story, usually of a fantastic nature







— n



19.

the degree of elevation or depression



20.

a.the angle of descent of a downward slope





b.such a slope



21.

the extreme height or depth



22.

mountaineering a section of a route between two belay points, sometimes equal to the full length of the rope but often shorter



23.

the degree of slope of a roof, esp when expressed as a ratio of height to span



24.

the distance between corresponding points on adjacent members of a body of regular form, esp the distance between teeth on a gearwheel or between threads on a screw thread



25.

the distance between regularly spaced objects such as rivets, bolts, etc



26.

the pitching motion of a ship, missile, etc



27.

a.the distance a propeller advances in one revolution, assuming no slip





b.the blade angle of a propeller or rotor



28.

the distance between the back rest of a seat in a passenger aircraft and the back of the seat in front of it



29.

music





a.the auditory property of a note that is conditioned by its frequency relative to other notes: high pitch ; low pitch





b. concert pitch See also international pitch an absolute frequency assigned to a specific note, fixing the relative frequencies of all other notes. The fundamental frequencies of the notes A--G, in accordance with the frequency A = 440 hertz, were internationally standardized and accepted in 1939



30.

cricket the rectangular area between the stumps, 22 yards long and 10 feet wide; the wicket



31.

geology the inclination of the axis of an anticline or syncline or of a stratum or vein from the horizontal



32.

another name for seven-up



33.

the act or manner of pitching a ball, as in cricket



34.

chiefly ( Brit ) a vendor's station, esp on a pavement



35.

slang a persuasive sales talk, esp one routinely repeated



36.

chiefly ( Brit ) (in many sports) the field of play



37.

golf Also called: pitch shot an approach shot in which the ball is struck in a high arc



38.

slang ( US ), ( Canadian ) make a pitch for





a.to give verbal support to





b.to attempt to attract (someone) sexually or romantically



39.

informal ( Brit ) queer someone's pitch to upset someone's plans


more at link:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pitch

[Lionel Mandrake]

33. "pitch" can also mean the sap of a tree,

or tar made from sap, or tar in general (as in post #7).

[Tuesday Afternoon]

35. yes, that is given at the link I provided

Science Dictionary



pitch (pĭch) Pronunciation Key
1.
A thick, tarlike substance obtained by distilling coal tar, used for roofing, waterproofing, and paving.

2.
Any of various natural bitumens, such as asphalt, having similar uses.

3.
A resin derived from the sap of a cone-bearing tree, such as a pine.

[retread]

32. Just think now that you no longer have "Perfect Pitch" you can play a guitar. Or at

least own one you are happy with!!

[Lionel Mandrake]

34. As a pianist I've gotten used to the idea that

I will never be as good as Art Tatum or Moura Lympany.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJITiO5hTuI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keMd5F6wxrA

Now you would have me be humiliated by Joe Pass and Andrés Segovia?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQfjm1m9MEI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eBnfzngq9Y

[retread]

36. Just saw a wonderful film on Thelonious Monk. I think it was on AMC. Anyway there

was a scene with one of the horn players in his band going over the score with Monk. He asked Thelonious, Where do you want me to come in? Answer: Wherever you want. Right here do I play a Csharp or Cnatural? Whichever you want. Is this a Gbm7 chord here? That would be all right.



I was referring to the fact that a guitar is never in perfect tune and someone with perfect pitch could be driven crazy.

[Lionel Mandrake]

37. My sense of pitch never all THAT perfect.

It was nothing to fret about. ;-)

[retread]

45. I'm tuning you out for that!!!

[csziggy]

38. Maybe that is why my piano sounds to me as though it is out of tune

My ear may be going!

I tried to play the other day and although the scale sounds OK with each note in relation to the others, when I played a tune, it sounded off. I guess I have waited too long to go back to playing.

[Lionel Mandrake]

42. Has your piano been tuned within the last six months?

If not, it probably needs tuning. That could be the whole problem.

[csziggy]

43. No, it hasn't - and that does need to be done

In fact, it has not been tuned since we moved it into the new house, so that could easily be the problem. But since no one plays it, it's hardly worth it. I hope to spend the $1500 to get it refinished, new felts, and the one broken hammer repaired. Then I hope one of my musical nephews will get a place where they can take it. I'm just the caretaker of this 100 year old upright grand. It's been in the family since my great-grandparents bought it for my musically talented grandmother, but the piano tuner who tuned it when I got custody said it was still in great shape and well worth keeping in repair.

[Lionel Mandrake]

40. My test results.

Following the link in the OP, I took the auditory test for absolute pitch. As expected, I didn't do very well. My test results were as follows:

Pure tone score
14 out of 36

Piano tone score
29 out of 36

The interpretation of these results is as follows:

"Your score indicates that you may have absolute pitch, but you scored slightly below our cutoff for 'AP1'. We have stringent criteria for inclusion in this category, so this does not necessarily mean that you do not possess absolute pitch."

The FAQ further explains that "The cut-off value for AP1 (our most rigorous definition of absolute pitch possession) is 24.5 on the pure tone axis, which was 3 standard deviations above the mean pure tone score (17.34) of our initial round of testing subjects."

I would have made the cut if they had used the piano tone score instead of the pure tone score. For people my age, credit is given for semitone errors. I probably had lots of those and also some full tone errors (for which no credit is given).

Does anyone else want to take the test? If so, you must start with this survey:
http://perfectpitch.ucsf.edu/survey/page1.php

[BlueJazz]

46. Had perfect pitch my whole life. ,,,never thought much about it although it does help...

...when I solo and improvise but still, it doesn't mean that you're a good musician.

[pink-o]

47. I have "Perfect" or "Absolute" Pitch. Had it when I was a kid and still do

at age 56. When I was young and thought music would be my career, I can tell you that Perfect Pitch did absolutely nothing to improve my abilities. My singing sucked, and the only thing Perfect Pitch did was reveal to me exactly HOW bad I sounded. It never helped me sing any better, because your vocal chords are muscles and like your body you have to work out to get them ripped. Just hearing my mistakes was not enough to help me correct them.

Oh, you could say if I had my acoustic guitar out in the woods, I could tune it without a problem. Big Whoop. Even in the days before digital tuners, people had pitch pipes with a Concert A blowhole. So once again, superfluous.

So really the ONLY thing I can see that might be an advantage for Perfect Pitch is you can start a song A Capella, and the band can come in behind you knowing you're in the same key. Okay. I used to be pretty smug about that. Then I heard This Guy, the Best. Singer. In. The. World, do it here and obviously doesn't have Perfect Pitch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ti2P_z5IPw

Overrated, I tell ya.

[Lionel Mandrake]

48. "obviously doesn't have Perfect Pitch"

How is that obvious?

[pink-o]

49. because he starts the song A Capella...

and when the band comes in behind him they're not on the same key.

The point I'm making is that I think Freddie Mercury was one of the best singers I've ever heard in my lifetime, and Perfect Pitch was not part of his repotoire. I have it and I'm not a great singer.

Hope that clears it up.

[Lionel Mandrake]

50. That's not what I hear.

Freddie Mercury starts singing in C Minor. The band comes in and there is a lot of modulation, but when the melody repeats it is still in C Minor.

I'm not saying that FM has perfect pitch or that it matters whether he does or not, just that you can't really tell from this song whether he has perfect pitch or not.

[pink-o]

51. Sorry, I have to disagree....

The first three words: "She keeps a..." are flatter than the next two: "Moet Chandon". Not a half-step or anything extreme. Just that when he hits the piano, and the rest of Queen start playing, you can tell it's sharper than Freddie started out.

Look, I LOVE him. I am totally privileged, because I lived in London during the autumn of 1975, and got to see Queen about a million times on the original BoRap tour. They were awesome, he was phenomenal. But when one has Absolute Pitch, you can always hear someone who doesn't, when he starts a song A Capella.

Sorry to belabor the point. He never hits a flat note when the band is behind him, it's just at the start.

[Lionel Mandrake]

52. Okay, now I understand what you are saying.

I still don't hear it, but that may be because you can hear finer gradations of pitch than I can.