Serious question...at what point does "weird touching" become "abuse"?

[Xithras]

I could use some serious answers here.

My wife has a slightly odd 30-ish relative who has always been the touchy type. Hugs when you meet him, wrap his arm around you during a conversation, wrestling with the kids in the backyard, etc. I was at a family party once, and a woman complained that her neck was bothering her. He walked up behind this woman, who he didn't know, and began rubbing her neck without warning. He can be a bit awkward, but seems to be genuinely baffled when people complain about him, and we've generally written him off as "weird but harmless". He still lives with his mother, has never had a real relationship with an adult outside of his immediate family, and hasn't had a job in 12 years. He's a weird, harmless loser.

For the past couple of weeks, his mother has been babysitting a couple of kids in their house, including a 10 year old girl. Last night, that girl made an accusation that he was touching her "in bad ways" (her words). After talking to her a bit, it became clear that she was genuinely bothered by what had happened, but it's ignited a massive argument in the family about whether it was "abuse". He'd apparently never touched her private areas, and had never touched under her clothing, but she described him picking her up by the butt to hug him, described "tickling" that felt wrong, and described an unrequested leg massage that he'd applied to her after she tripped in the hallway and banged her knee. In all, she described five different incidents, none of which were individually damning, but each of which could be seen as a bit inappropriate.

Some members of the family are defending him, saying that his behaviors with her are no different than his behaviors with anyone else, and that it's not really any sort of molestation. They point to the fact that the girl admitted that he always stopped without her having to ask, and that he never put his hands under her clothes or on her privates. They say that, while his actions may not have been appropriate, he wasn't being abusive.

Others, including my wife, are saying that the girl was touched in a way that SHE clearly felt was sexual and inappropriate, and therefore it should be reported to the police for investigation. Their belief is that his intent is less important than his actions, and that anytime a child reports that she's been touched in a way that made them uncomfortable, it should be reported.

This whole thing has been exploding in her family all morning, with some members of the family threatening to cut off others if they report him, and others threatening everything from ostracization to physical violence against him if he's not turned in. The entire debate, at this point, seems to focus around one simple question...at one point does an "inappropriate person" become an "abusive person"? At one point does someones behavior bypass the point where a stern lecture is appropriate, and enter law enforcement territory?

I thought it an interesting question, and wanted to get your takes on it. Would you turn him into the police? Take him out to the woods and knock some sense into him? Lecture him on inappropriate behavior?

[CBGLuthier]

1. without any question he has a problem

Someone needs to tell him to knock it the fuck off. There is nothing "innocent" about an adult constantly groping underage girls using every pretense they can think of.

I would not say he has crossed a legal line but he sure as hell crossed the touching "MY" kids line. I think every family has one of these creeps.

No cops but someone should threaten him politely and privately.

No adult has any real business hugging children they are not related to. Not under ordinary circumstances.

[Xithras]

9. The girls dad, fwiw, seems to be in the first camp.

He apparently doesn't think it rises to the level of abuse, but has said that he wants to drag the guy out back and beat him so badly that he'll never want to hug another kid again. I'd be down with that...

[eShirl]

2. Has anyone tried explaining to him she doesn't want him touching her in any way anymore?

[Kali]

3. and explaining to her to tell him to stop it

she said he stopped with out her asking:wtf:

she has been taught to recognize it but not try to stop it???

[Xithras]

7. Yes, they've already had that conversation with her AFAIK.

But, she's a kid, and was apparently scared by what was going on. It's improper to blame her for freezing and not reacting.

[Kali]

11. sounds like a mess

and a bunch of people could use the guidance of a professional!

If as many as you seem to indicate are so upset about this, maybe the authorities do need to be involved, but I doubt if that is going to accomplish much. Too bad the mother of the guy can't face the problem and be involved in getting him looked at and maybe some psych/behavioral help without law enforcement getting involved.

[grasswire]

21. a professional would be a mandated reporter...

...obligated by law to tell authorities. Just FWIW. Not making any judgment here, just noting that getting any professional involved will mean reporting the guy.

[Xithras]

22. My wife actually is a mandated reporter.

She's an elementary school teacher.

Unfortunatly, there's a caveat to mandatory reporting. By law, she has to report all instances of abuse or suspected abuse. That's a major part of the reason why she wants to report it. The only thing stopping her, at this point, is the question as to whether this even qualifies as "abuse", as defined by law and common sense.

[Kali]

26. report him for what?

the whole point of the OP was asking if the reporting line has been crossed - I would assume in the situation I was advocating the professional would be working to prevent the possibility of the guy going that far, or being accused of doing so.

He has boundary issues and poor social skills, might have a developmental disorder - why does something like that need to be reported?

Note: this is just on the objective reading of the descriptions given by the OP - if peoples' guts are telling them the guy is dangerous then yes maybe he needs stronger intervention. I'm just going by what has been written here.

Do the socially awkward all need to be reported to the police? the guy apparently hasn't done anything the former resident of the white house hasn't done. (thinking of the Angela Merkel neck rub and dumbass's fondness for bald heads) oh wait ...

[REP]

18. Totally agree with that - she did NOTHING wrong, and needs to hear that a lot

(which I'm sure is already being done)

HE needs to be told by EVERYONE to keep his goddamned hands to himself. If that means a good punching, so be it. (As a matter of fact, I have a button that reads "Touchy Feely, Kicky Crotchy")

[Xithras]

4. He's been told to knock the touchy-feely crap off more times than anyone can count.

He nearly got his head beat in during the incident with the women when she freaked out, shouted for her boyfriend (one of his cousins), and it took three people to keep the boyfriend from beating him to a bloody pulp rught there on the spot.

He's been warned dozens of other times about his weird touchy-feely behavior, both with kids and adults, both male and female.

He's always apologetic when confronted, but claims that he think he was doing anything wrong and was just being "friendly". Still, his behavior never changes, and he'll usually be right back at it within minutes.

[Kali]

6. more info

maybe he needs to see a doctor?

[Xithras]

8. We've wondered about his mental status for many years.

He's definitely not "normal", and I've wondered a few times as to how many red staplers he's hiding in his room, but I don't know if he's actually got any disabilities, or whether he's just an immature loser with boundary issues. Either way, I'm in no position to push him toward an examination, and his mother is refusing to acknowledge that there's anything wrong with him at all.

[snooper2]

29. His mother sounds like part of the reason he has all of these problems..

She should have kicked him out of the nest a long time ago...

[Xithras]

32. You have no idea...

The mother has issues herself. This guy is the youngest of his siblings and is her "baby". She gives him food, shelter, spending money, cleans his laundry, unlimited use of the car, etc. He sits around their house all day in his underwear playing video games, reading fantasy novels, and looking at porn. He's a nice enough guy to talk to, but the only thing standing between him and a stereotype is his homes lack of a basement.

She gives him everything, and expects nothing from him. If you try to raise the issue with her, she simply says that he's "immature for his age", and that he's not ready to start his life yet. His own sister tried to force him out of the house a couple of years ago (she apparently partially owns it), and her mother not only stopped her, but refused to speak with her for an entire year because she was being "cruel to her brother".

Yep, she's definitely part of the reason...

[sarge43]

33. Then he probably needs professional help

If he doesn't learn control, it won't end well.

[Kali]

5. police? I don't think so

but he obviously has boundary and social problems - maybe an undiagnosed social/behavioral disorder?

if he is not otherwise disabled, I agree somebody should have a stern discussion with him and an eye kept on him when around kids, but the police over this? nah

[AngryAmish]

10. Kinko, Kinko, the kid-loving clown the parents wanna beat me up and run me outa town!

Keep that weirdo away from kids.

[Chan790]

12. Psychological help.

I'm not a shrink and I can't diagnose him but it seems like he has issues with social cues, socially-appropriate behavior and boundaries. That seems like the makings of some sort of dysfunction (rather than a lack) in interpersonal relationship skills. The fact that it's a repetitive issue more so...even criminal sexual-deviants learn to hide their behavior that others would disapprove of, this guy is repetitively out in the open with it and shows no comprehension of why past behavior has been inappropriate.

So, no...I wouldn't call the police because I see no indication that an actual crime has been committed, but I'd keep him away from my kids if I had any and I'd by using the fact that other people want to call the police to pressure him into getting checked-out with a mental health professional versed in these issues.

[seabeyond]

13. the adults are uncomfortable. why wouldnt the child be. she is complaining jsut as the adults

has ANYONE told him to stop and everyone help to remind him. or is everyone having these conversations behind his back and not helping to clue him in.

it doesnt sound like he meant a sexual assault.

doesnt sound like he did anything to the girl he doesnt do in plain view to everyone else.

also

intent sure does matter.

on edit... i read more above and see it has been addressed with him many times. hm. got a problem there. his mom sees no problem is a bigger problem.

good luck to you all.

[Brickbat]

14. While I'm not sure about getting police involved, that girl does need to see the adults in her life

acting decisively and swiftly in ways that protect her. I hope she comes out of this OK, and I hope things go smoothly for all of you.

[eShirl]

23. This!

[distantearlywarning]

15. Doesn't sound to me like the police need to be involved here

But the guy obviously has a problem of some kind. Someone in the family needs to sit him down and have a SERIOUS talking-to with him about these issues. And he should be watched around kids in the future.

It has also been my experience that if something feels wrong, or off in some way that something usually IS wrong. We ask people to deny their intuition too much in this culture (usually to avoid conflict). While it doesn't sound like what this guy did to the girl was crossing a line, exactly, I wouldn't discount her intuition either. He may be having inappropriate feelings towards her, managing to (mostly) keep himself in line behaviorally about those feelings, but she may still be picking up on the feelings subconsciously and therefore interpreting his behaviors in a particularly negative light.

[LynneSin]

16. I know people like this - he sounds like a step-relative I know who has serious social disabilities

Not really mentality retarded, just isn't clear on what is and isn't appropriate touching.

If he is living with the mother, then the mother should work with him about appropriate touching. I would have been totally offended if someone I barely knew came up to me and gave me a back rub. I highly doubt the person is doing it is aware it's bad behavior but he does need to understand it's wrong. As for the person I know, he is in his 50s now but when he was around his uncle (my stepfather) would calmly intervene before the touching got out of control. He didn't do it embarassingly but just would call him away from the person he was about to touch so he wouldn't annoy them.

As for the daughter, I think I've watched too many episodes of 'Intervention' to recognize that the issue isn't being dealt with accordingly it could be something that haunts & scar the girl for a very long time.

She needs to know she was correct to have reported the touching to an adult and she also needs reassurances that steps are being done to ensure this relative no longer touches her in that way. It's ok to tell the girl that at this time the problem will be dealt with internally because it seems he has not touched her sexually, just inappropriately. And she should also be told that if he does it again to yell loudly "NO" and find the closest adult; HOWEVER, that the family is going to do their best to keep this creepy toucher from being alone with children and when he is not not touch them other than a handshake or high-five.

[dawg]

17. I don't see what good could come from getting the police involved.

As long as everyone is reasonably sure no sexual touching was done, the criminal justice system really doesn't have any way of making this situation better.

The young man needs psychological help. Perhaps he is somewhere on the autistic spectrum, or has some type of disability that impairs him from drawing proper physical boundaries. He needs help. And he does not need to be placed in a situation where he is able to be alone with a child.

The children deserved to be protected.

The young man needs to be protected as well. My heart kind of goes out to him, in a way. I think it's doubtful that he truly understands what he is doing.

[ohiosmith]

19. Seemingly innocent touching and tickling is a technique frequently used by sexual predators to

condition children and prepare them for more aggressive and intimate contact. The individual and behaviors you describe are reminiscent of one of my uncles. Following his death several years ago I learned that he had molested several family members including two of my sisters. I recall my grandmother excusing his conduct "oh, that's just Billy being Billy" when anyone complained about him. If someone in the family had taken appropriate action a lot of grief could have been avoided.

[Xithras]

24. And that point's been raised by many in the family...

It's a known grooming technique used by pedophiles. In fact, one of the biggest arguments FOR turning him in, raised so far, is the fear that he was grooming her for future molestation, and that he may have molested others in the past. There is absolutely no evidence or accusation that he's ever touched anyone else, but a lot of people are freaked out over the fact that his actions were so similar to those used by people who are testing or grooming kids to molest them later. If that's what he was doing, everyone wants to know where he learned it and whether he's done it before.

It's a huge what-if.

[ohiosmith]

30. He may have learned it from someone who abused him. Ignoring his behavior will not end well. Even

if he is completely innocent, he could end up seriously injured or dead if his conduct is not addressed.

[Kaleva]

20. My advice? Stay as far away from this as possible and don't take sides.

I mean that for both you and your wife. Her family is already exploding over this and regardless of which side you both take, there will be members of the family who'll be really pissed off.

I think the cousin has some serious issues but I don't think what he's done rises to the level of abuse. If it did, then you'd have no choice but to step in.

There are a number of problems here which you and your wife cannot resolve. First, the cousins mother doesn't appear to think there's anything wrong with him. Another is the guy has been told numerous times his actions sometime upsets people to the point he may get beaten up but he keeps doing it anyways. Whatever you and your wife say will change neither of those things.

So, unless you both think that what has taken place rises to the level of abuse and you are willing to get the authorities involved, I'd suggest you both stay out of this family squabble.

[Xithras]

25. I wish I could.

Unfortunately, there are a couple other complications with the family, which I'd prefer not to get into, that pull us into this more than I'd like.

[Kaleva]

36. My wife's family could have its own reality tv show

[Flaxbee]

27. if you involve the police, this guy is f*cked forever

He obviously has issues, but I would think the first step is to get him evaluated by a therapist / psychiatrist of some sort. If this man were to be labeled as any sort of sex offender - of children, especially - he will never find work, he (and his parents or whomever he lives with) could have a miserable living situation because, depending on the laws in the community, this guy might need to register his presence wherever he goes -- etc.

If he seems to be oblivious - purposefully or otherwise - to the effect his weird / intrusive touching has on others, he has boundary issues that he needs help with. He's either bluffing that he knows it's inappropriate, or he's truly clueless.

There are things that can be done before taking it to the police, where it could easily become a life-altering (in a bad way) event for him and those who live with him. First, keep him away from kids, and kids away from him. Second, he need to have someone really talk to him about his behavior, including the negative ramifications for himself and his family. Third, look into getting him professional help. He crossed a line when it went from oddly groping adults to touching kids. Really, in today's world, no non-relative (really, non-parent/grandparent) adult should touch a child unless that is part of the job description or is an emergency: day care, pediatrician, firefighter, etc. Sad that is what the world has come to, but I think for the safety of everyone - adult and child - that's the best policy.


I do not mean in the slightest to downplay that the girl felt violated - but if the girl's father doesn't want to go to the police, this guy has a chance to change his behavior before he gets himself into a world of trouble (assuming, of course, he isn't mentally ill and *can* change his behavior).

[snooper2]

28. sounds like a sick "loser" fuck who needs an ass beating

to me

[sarge43]

31. Certainly talk to him about touching anyone anywhere without their permission.

The individual touched gets to call it. The girl found it inappropriate. Case closed.

If he keeps this up, he could find himself in big trouble.

[kimi]

34. I feel badly for your whole family

but especially concerned for the kids. How much longer will the mother be babysitting the kids? - cause that is a whole huge problem leading to more problems waiting to happen, especially if, as you've indicated upthread, she doesn't realize the seriousness involved here. The guy has what sounds like some serious developmental/social issues involved, and his mom is enabling those to continue. If the family dynamic spins out of control i.e. the police get involved and everything goes to hell, then the whole family is fractured, maybe beyond repair. That's something that would be awful, IMO. I've got a fractured family, it's sad.

The girl and her family IMO ought to be the ones to make some serious decisions here. It's her body that is involved, it's her feelings that are at stake. That's just how I see it. Maybe they could see someone - without naming names perhaps - and talk it out with a professional. I don't know if that would lead to mandatory reporting or not, but I think at this point, with this volatile a situation and a threat of real violence here, something needs to be done.

Best of luck to you all.

[nolabear]

35. My first action would be to keep all children away from him.

This doesn't mean he's legally actionable but children need protection from being touched in any way they don't want to be. The girl should be helped to understand that he has a problem with making people uncomfortable and that she needn't worry about being left with him. What he's doing may or may not have a sexual component as to intent but it could (I'm not trying to raise suspicions here, just naming possibilities).

Then I'd require that, if he was coming in contact with people I was responsible for, he be evaluated by a professional who can determine his capacity to process information and social cues. It's dicey because as an adult he's the customer and information might not be shareable with others by the counselor, but the family can stipulate that in order to remain in contact with members he has to give permission to have it shared with some responsible party. Then if he's interested in and willing to get help it can be given for whatever his needs are. If not, I'd keep my loved ones away from him.

It's a tough one as far as legalities go, but I DO know that if anyone beats him up they have committed an illegal act and can be prosecuted, so that's not a good idea.

He may have a real disorder and it can only help to try to address it if you're so inclined.

This is just my opinion, though, not professional advice.

[freshwest]

37. Is mental incapacity keeping him from working? Some must be taught like little kids:

About 'safe' behavior:

Maintain personal space of an arm's length.

No touching without permission.

No touching in areas where a swim suit would be worn.

Give a side hug with permission, not a frontal hug.

Don't interrupt other people's conversations.

Don't stare at people.

There's more to the list, and it is in no way dependent upon the age of the person being taught. Most people are taught this at home at any early age, that there are social consequences to breaking these rules of physical contact.

The person that has to be continually taught may be desperate for the feeling of being in their parents' or siblings arms, to get a sense that they belong. They may be acting out what was socially acceptable in their family, and can't differentiate between ages, sexes, friends and strangers. They may be doing what they saw on TV. The family may not want to acknowledge or know about the kind of disabilities I am talking about.

If the mother has no problem with him breaking these rules, or yours is one of those families where a lot of consensual but not at all sexual touching binds the members together, he has learned that his behavior is good and makes him part of the group. If he has been firmly told (I may have missed that in the thread) to keep his hands to himself, especially around those of the opposite sex or younger than he is, and disobeys, he needs training.

Some families do not have any level of acceptable touching allowed, not even for comforting. For them, any touching is regarded as an overture to sex, just like a light switch. With them, there is no in between. It sounds as if most of the family approves of the way he behaves. And if as you say (as I read in response to a reply that you stay far away) you can't stay out for financial or reasons of housing, etc., and you have a good relationship with the mother, would it be out of line for you to question her as to what she thinks is going on?

As the elder and the one who helped bring him up, but for some reason, wants him in her home (if I got that part right - BTW, I would not refer to him as a 'loser,' not knowing why he is at home), her word carries a lot of weight.

This can easily end up in police hands with a record that will effect the entire family, considering sex offender lists. I am guessing that the children being babysitted are not blood relations. The child making the accusation in this day and age may also not know about this man's problems, IF he has them, and IDK if he does; but she certainly knows what children are taught in schools to prevent sexual abuse, such as the list I wrote above.

Whatever she says, I hope the little girl will stay out of reach of this man and not feel either victimized by him or be ostracized by the family for rejecting what others consider an endearing trait. You must make sure the girl's family knows that this will not happen again, or maybe it's gone too far along now.

Your family may have to make sure that the family wanting the police called in knows your family understands, may have to deny that something was done wrong if they fervently believe it was not, and tell them they must not come over again. But it appears this matter has gone beyond a family dispute if she is outside your family unit and his mother was being paid for babysitting.

I may have garbled up the story, but that's the best suggestion I can make to you. Best wishes to him, the girl, the family and you.