At what age do you expect children to start treating others

[OhioBlue]

as they want to be treated?

My reason for asking... I have a 16 year old niece. she's had a rough life. Her mom (my sister) sucks at motherhood. she also has a 5 year old son from a different father and has left the child rearing to my niece. The mom has moved at least 16 times in this young girl's life, has had several boyfriends and has never held a regular job.

As a young girl, my niece was a sweet, loving, happy little girl. She loved me and jumped at the chance to go places like the fair or trick-or-treating with me. I've only missed 2 of her birthdays - one b/c of the weather and one b/c my SO's father was in ICU. I've been her advocate - always defending her to her mother, my father and step-mother or my sis's boyfriends.

She's overweight and has had health issues b/c of it. She actually lost her sight for a while a few years ago and now has high blood pressure. I've harped on my sister - but only tried to give the niece positive reinforcement (such as when she was on a healthy diet and lost weight and her complexion cleared up - I told her how stunning she was).

Somewhere around 12 her personality changed (to be expected at that age) and she gave attitude to everyone, got really dramatic and just wasn't very friendly. I continued to give her unconditional love, always the benefit of the doubt and always tried to help - offering to let her stay at my house, taking her on shopping trips, etc.

The last couple of years have been worse - she's just outright mean to me at times. She expects me to give her my car - even tho I can't afford a new one at this moment and purposely tries to hurt me. And.. now I see her turning on my 3 year old son. She rolls her eyes anytime he does anything that make others laugh. it isn't just me - I've seen her do it to her boyfriend... it was gut-wrenching. the boyfriend is freakin' awesome and takes care of not only her but her little brother. He is the one that chases after the 5 year old when he's out of sight or comes to his aid if he needs something. My niece is sooo mean to him - I have no idea why he stays. I know she is lashing out b/c she is so hurt and has been saddled with all the responsibility for her little brother. But, while I understand it.. it doesn't make it right or a way to live your life and expect to have friends.

so... at what age should tough-love start? Should I talk with her about what she should expect from others based on how she treats them? I've talked to my sister - but she ignores/avoids/makes excuses.. you just can't make her be a good mom or even a good person...

I've offered to babysit the little brother on the weekends, I've offered that they can stay with me anytime they want... but it seems she has turned against me. I don't even know if a tough love talk would help or just make her more resentful... I can take her troubled teenaged antics if they were just that and toward just me... but when she starts getting snotty to my son, and I see her self-destructing.. I just don't think I can be the kind/unconditionally loving aunt any longer. I'm thinking I need to set some boundaries/expectations to at least help her learn a life lesson? I'll welcome any thoughts.

[elleng]

1. Sounds to me as if she needs professional help, sooner/better.

Thanks for all you've done.

[OhioBlue]

3. I agree 100% - but I can't make it happen.

she needs counseling, she needs birth control, she needs a mother that teaches her about nutrition, she needs a mother that takes her for her driving test when she says she will. The 5 yr old needs structure/pre-school and speech therapy and parents rather than a 16 yr old sister and her 18 yr old boyfriend that are saddled with all the responsibility. My sister has found a new boyfriend in Indiana and just leaves when she wants - she provides a house and food via public assistance and child support - but she is a sometimes parent. She doesn't answer phone calls and has been absent from any family functions since Christmas.

I'm just trying to focus on the best way I can act/help. I'm thinking that it isn't the best idea to just keep ignoring/forgiving her behavior without addressing it b/c she is starting to see that as normal?

[elleng]

5. Dear Ohio, thinking,

and reading CalPeg + your response.

Any way to encourage her boyfriend to help her w counseling?
And depending on the circumstances, letting her know when you disapprove of her words, behavior? Not exactly 'tough,' but better than pretending its 'normal.'

Thinking of you.

[OhioBlue]

16. that's actually a great idea.

the kid seems to have a pretty good head on his shoulders. when she was going off on him the other night - over nothing - she was raging b/c he sent his mother a picture of the cake she made him and the mom texted back and asked if it was swiss steak. to be fair to the mother - it was in a casserole dish with choc frosting and it was a cell phone pic... But the niece raged.. things would calm down... then she would all of a sudden throw another jab followed by a low blow. He never fought back, just calmly tried to reason with her, told her he loved the cake, asked to please stop...

She stormed off to the garage and eventually it was just him, me and my b/f. We talked about things, his future plans, etc. He's a really good kid. If I get the chance i will talk to him about it - but I'm also going to talk to my brother who has more contact with him.

thanks for the suggestion.

[elleng]

19. You're welcome.

He sounds a bit like my daughter's b/f, almost saint-like.

Do be careful, 'cause my daughter was angry at me when she learned I had spoken with her b/f about daughter's emotional stuff.

:hi:

[Odin2005]

31. Sounds like borderline personality disorder. She needs help ASAP.

:(

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. My dear OhioBlue...

I agree with Elleng...The sooner the better.

She needs professional help.

I think her pain is overwhelming her...

[OhioBlue]

4. I agree.. but I honestly don't know how to help.

I can't make her go to counseling and I can't make my sis set it up or follow through. If I thought it was just teenage hormones and could chalk it up to her mother bad mouthing me... I could be content to just continue with the acceptance of her actions and continuing with my offers of help and treating her with just love - not tough love. B/c I would know either it would pass... or she would eventually learn the truth - even if she didn't... it would only be me that she was upset with... but it is so much deeper - she is getting mean to everyone. Even my SO called her the B word to me. I admonished him, but honestly, the way she was treating her boyfriend that night was just awful. And.. my dad and step-mom said she was being the b word. My present self-reflection thinking.. is.. what actions should I take in the future that best help? By taking punches and returning love.. without any discussion/consequences/etc. am I perpetuating a "normal" for her that says it is okay to treat others like crap and expect love in return?

[seabeyond]

6. kids, teens, everyone needs clear boundaries. lines.

i have a niece that had a really fucked up life for different reasons. was telling brother yesterday, that though she was really messed with, she is spoiled and has expectation with her "i want", and people taking her behavior. never have i allowed rolling eyes. got them once when she was 12 and that set me off. who the hell do you think you are rolling eyes at me. my kids were younger and learned that day, rolling eyes were not going to cut it.

but.... unconditional love and i show it in every way.

the kids know i wont allow disrespect, but then i am not disrespectful either. so i ask no more from them than what i give.

let the niece know, you are there always. and there is behavior that wont be allowed. you will not be talked to disrespectfully, but in turn, you wont treat her that way.

if she really cannot handle it, then go. come back when in better mood, you will be there

i am so sad when parents (adult in kids life) dont give kids these boundaries. regardless of appearance, kids really need and want these boundaries. and they need to learn how to be respectful in a world of internet and real world, where respect is becoming harder and harder to find.

talk to her. she should have learned this years ago, but needs to learn today. ugly is ugly. who wants ugly in their lives. boundaries is part of loving your niece.

[OhioBlue]

13. thank you.

In the past, I've always wanted to be a soft landing place for her - someone that will accept her and be on her side. I had an aunt like that growing up and it really helped me. but, I was never as mean to people as she is and I don't think my approach is helping. I think you're very right about setting those boundaries for her.

[Kaleva]

7. I'd suggest writing her off but call child services for the sake of the 5 year old boy.

You've gone the extra mile for your niece but she appears to be beyond any help you can give her now. This sentence really stands out to me:

"She expects me to give her my car..."

Despite your best efforts, she has become your sister and she's at the age where only she can decide that she needs to change with the assistance of professional therapy.

I'd strongly suggest you consider contacting child services for the sake of the boy. You know your sister's schedule and how often she leaves her young son to be taken care of by an older teenage sister who has serious issues.

"I just don't think I can be the kind/unconditionally loving aunt any longer."

I totally agree with your above statement. Limit your contact with your niece to what is absolutely necessary to find out how your 5 year old nephew is doing.

[OhioBlue]

14. Thanks for your comments.

I do indeed think she is becoming my sister.

[LaurenG]

8. Do not ignore bad behavior

I have custody of my 17 year old granddaughter, before she came here she had been neglected her entire life except for small periods of time and she too was responsible for her brother.

When she came to me she was a foul mouthed, rebellious handful. We had many, many go rounds about what is acceptable at my house or in my presence. I had to teach her how to brush her teeth properly and use dental floss among the small things. She is a dear person but became hardened and coarse and it has taken 6 months to get her to understand that she doesn't have to lie to get her needs met. She had a hard time with rules initially but since has calmed way down because she knows that she's safe with me. Don't give up and keep setting boundaries with her, its no fun and is way harder than just giving in but if you want to make a difference stand up to her and tell her you know she knows better than the way she is behaving. She probably just needs time to be a kid, I wonder if you could take her out somewhere and just play or hike or just talk over lunch. Just let her know you'll always be there for her but she'll have to use good manners and you two will get along great.

Good luck, I know how hard this can be, thank goodness she has one person in her life who loves and cares about her.

edit spelling

[elleng]

9. Nice.

Thanks for what you do.

[OhioBlue]

11. Thank you for your comments

I have definitely been feeling like I need to set some boundaries/expectations. Your insight is very helpful.

[applegrove]

10. Tell her she's acting out whenever she does it. Tell her her life story. Tell her her narrative.

Give her her story.

[OhioBlue]

15. very good advice. thank you.

[Rabrrrrrr]

12. By the age of 2.

Best wishes with your niece - I'm sorry to hear that she's gone off the deep end that way. Always tragic, but also always the hope and the potential for a completely turnaround! It's never hopeless!

And "unconditional loving" doesn't mean that you have to accept shitty behavior - accepting shitty behavior is a sign of not loving.

[OhioBlue]

23. thank you - it isn't hopeless - you're right

and yes... you're completely right about accepting shitty behavior. if I didn't love her, I could just tune it out and ignore it.

[REP]

17. It should have started years ago, really

She needs to be told she is not allowed to act in certain ways - to YOUR child, about YOUR car, etc. Period. End of story. You are the authority. Loving someone doesn't mean they get to crap all over you!

Yes, her mother is crapping on her, and her life is being stolen by being forced to parent her brother. This is tremendously unfair. But does she want her helpless brother in state care, or does she want to suck it up? She has to ask and answer this herself.

You can force her into counseling. You're older. You're the authority figure. She'll resent the hell out of you - at first, until she realizes her anger is being validated (and she has every right to be angry) and is being given tools to help her out of her horrible situation.

Good luck to you both.

[OhioBlue]

22. Thank you.

You're probably right.. I should have started years ago with setting boundaries and.. in hind sight.. I should have forced myself in a bit more. Sis and I were never close, so I don't see her as much as my other nieces and nephews. i don't know if I can force her into counseling, but I am going to call a local agency on Monday to see what they offer for children in her situation (I can't afford to pay for it).

[REP]

24. Hind sight is easy. It's even easier where I am :-)

Neither one of you deserve any knocks - you've both been given too many neither one deserve. Telling her where "the line" is, though, isn't giving her a hard time (despite what she will say - and she will! She's a teen!); it's just giving her some of the tools she'll need for all of her life.

I think counseling is something everyone could use - and I mean everyone, not just the people being discussed. I hope you're able to find something for her; a third party who just validates her feelings of anger would be helpful; I'm sure she feels very conflicted about those emotions. Maybe even through a UU church (if they're in line with your values/beliefs? I'm a 'none of the above' and I think they're okay; my apologies if this suggestion is offensive).

If I may make one suggestion from my easy vantage point? Let the weight issue go for now. Her body is the one thing she may feel she has control over, and no matter how loving and well-meaning any help with her weight is, she may just not be able to deal with that now. Nothing wrong with the food available at your house being healthy and delicious, but perhaps not mention it - unless she asks. I don't think you did anything wrong; it's just that body size, weight loss, control and all that is so emotionally-linked and I think it's possible with all the chaos in her life, as I said before, it's the one way she feels in control - even if she's unhappy with the results. I could be wrong - just my thoughts from my easy spot.

Again, my best wishes for you all. You can tell her some middle-aged chick she's never met thinks she's pretty brave (and I think you are, too).

[trackfan]

18. 7 was considered the age of reason

when I was a kid.

[grasswire]

20. I am concerned about the little brother.

The mother is leaving this child in the care of his older sister and BF while she goes out of state? The sister is raising the child?

This is wrong. Very wrong.

Wrong for the sister and very wrong for the brother.

Is this girl in school? If so, I think I would go to the guidance counselor and ask for some help. A guidance counselor who learns about the situation may very well report the story to child services.

Someone needs to be protecting the interest of the brother -- someone professional.

[OhioBlue]

21. me too... I go back and forth so much

It started out okay for the kid - the mom and dad were together and they seemed to just dote over him. It actually made me sad for the niece b/c I thought the sis was trying to make up for not being a good mom to her. Then.. at around the age of 2 for him, and 13 for the niece, they both started abandoning parenting roles and leaving them up to her. Blaming her if he had a diaper rash, blaming her for things he did, etc. They went to "work", went out, ran errands, did whatever and she was responsible for his day to day care. They even kept her out of school at times to watch him. They still did the big stuff - birthdays, doc visits, preschool consultation, etc. Now, the dad is gone, and my sis seems to be checking out.

The poor kid even missed his own birthday party this year at my dad's house. I guess my sis who has no real job had something "really important" pop up. I've thought about threatening it to her... but then I think that I shouldn't threaten something that I'm not prepared to do... and I don't know that I'm there yet... there is sooooo much to weigh and consider with that.

You're very right tho - this is very wrong... I'm not convinced yet that calling in child services is the right thing to do. the niece, will all her faults, does really love the little brother and try so hard to do what is best for him. She isn't mean to him like she is others.. but still, she is young and not his mother and he does need more guidance.

Thank you for your comments. Everyone's have been really helpful in helping me think about the situation.

[grasswire]

25. she is still a child in the eyes of the law

...and has responsibility way over what a child should be expected to bear.

I understand your reticence about getting childrens services involved, but the risk is already there. If anyone who is a mandated reporter (teacher, doctor, etc.) knows the girl is raising her brother without adult presence in the house, they will be on it.

It doesn't matter if she loves the brother. That's not the issue. It's just too much to ask of her, and not fair to the child either.

Who is supporting these children?

[TorchTheWitch]

26. love isn't allowing someone to do however they wish

Love includes discipline, boundaries and structure not letting them walk all over you and treat people like crap. Being treated badly isn't a license to treat others badly. Allowing your niece to treat you badly and excusing her bad behavior toward others believing that it's ok because she is/was treated badly is bad for you and bad for her... and bad for anyone she treats badly. "Tough" love doesn't enter into it... regular REAL love includes discipline, boundaries and structure, and that has everything to do with it.

Age doesn't enter into it either. Real love that includes discipline, boundaries and structure should have started from birth. She got this way not just because she is/was treated badly but by others excusing her bad behavior and allowing it to continue. The unconditional love that doesn't include discipline, boundaries and structure that you and others have indulged her with has done a hell of a lot more to create this badly behaving teen than any of the bad treatment she has had to live with. You've done her and yourself no favors at all by denying her the discipline, boundaries and structure she requires just as every person growing up requires. How are people supposed to cope with life when they aren't taught limits and rules and given direction? Teaching a child these things isn't "tough" love - it IS love.

[pitohui]

27. around age 5 or 6, if they don't know this at 16, they'll never know it

protect your son, that's where your responsibility lies, you can save a 3 year old

you can't fix a long-time-broken 16 year old

i was a troubled teen too, who wasn't, and it would never have dawned on me to try to make a three year old feel bad about himself, the "eyes roll" at a THREE YEAR OLD is all i need to know

protect your son, at the end of the day, your sister's family is your sister's family, and you've already done all you can to fix what can't be fixed

not every broken person can be fixed, in fact, in my experience, most can't

all teens "eyes roll" and load on the insults and sarcasm aimed at peers and at older people, it's a way of testing themselves and developing independence, but there is NOTHING positive or normal about putting down a three year old

again, protect your son, at some point, the teen's personality and character is her own responsibility, and age 16 is FAR past that point

[grasswire]

28. Is there a chance that you could foster the little brother?

Maybe the mom would let him come to live with you til she gets her act together. That would give the teenage girl space to get on with her life, it would protect the little brother. And perhaps you could give that little boy some security and good parenting. That's what I would try to do.

[Kaleva]

29. I think the main problem is your sister and not your niece.

You've said you harped on her but to no avail. You've stated your sister has pulled her daughter out of school to babysit the young boy. She has no job but gets assistance and takes off to Indiana to visit her boyfriend there. Leaving the 16 year old to watch over her brother. The 5 year old missed a birthday party at your father's because your sister was occupied with something else.

I still think you ought to contact child services and tell them in detail what you know. Your niece and nephew need help that you alone cannot provide.

After reading thru this thread several times and thinking about it, I believe it's your sister that need some "tough love" and not your niece.

[Odin2005]

30. by the time they start preschool. I think you neice needs mental help ASAP.

:(

And call CPS, IMMEDIATELY.

[Iggo]

32. 0? 1? 2?

Somewhere in there.

It's learned behavior. But to be learned, it must be taught.

[kwassa]

33. Protect your son.

This is your responsibility as a parent. Cut off your niece's access to him until she agrees to treat him with love and respect, and does. Set a boundary and keep it. Your niece seems to have few if any boundaries.

Your niece is your sister's responsibility, which your sister is clearly not fulfilling. This is a tragedy, but you can't save your niece on your own. You are trying to be supportive when and where you can, which is all you can do.

You sound like you might have a few boundary issues of your own; why would your niece have any expectation of getting a car from you in the first place? She has no right to a car from you or anyone else. Just say no, as the saying goes.