HOWARD DEAN IS A TICKET TO A VICTORY FOR BUSH

[ginchinchili]

There is no way voters in America will replace Bush with someone that has no military or foreign policy experience. We're effectively engaged in 3 complicated, nontraditional wars: Iraq, Afghanistan and the broader war on terrorism. Americans are afraid and Karl Rove and co. will stoke that fear with 200 million dollars. Dean and his shrinking numbers of supporters are just whistling past the graveyard.

On national security, while Dean was governor of Vermont the Yankee Nuclear Power Plant was rated the least secure nuclear facility in the United States. Rove will have a field day with that.

Rove will paint Dean as another New England liberal and to "prove" their point, they'll run ads showing two men walking hand in hand with the voice-over saying, "In Howard Dean's America homosexuality will be competing with our traditional American values. Howard Dean is the only governor to pass a law allowing a marriage-like union between people of the same sex. Is this the kind of America you want for your children?" Then the camera pan wide to show two children watching the gay couple.

Then they'll start showing all the clips of Dean saying unpopular, politically stupid things making them out to be worse than they really were: "Howard Dean says he knows America." Then they show the clip of Dean making the confederate flag statement. "What he doesn't seem to understand is that not all southerners think alike." Then they'll show a black business woman, a hardworking white farmer, an Asian-American chemist, etc. etc.

What will it take for the rest of the Dean supporters to wake up? Vote for Howard Dean and you'll get 4 more years of Bush, I promise you.

[Sagan]

1. So suddenly Chimpy has all this experience?

He had NONE going into 2000. He has botched every diplomatic and military initiative and now he's all experienced?

Maybe, but it's the bad kind of experienced.

[blm]

11. Your point makes the argument AGAINST Dean.

The presidency in 2005 will not be the time for on the job training, yet AGAIN.

[mouse7]

43. You support Anti-Gay rubbish like this, blm?

"Rove will paint Dean as another New England liberal and to "prove" their point, they'll run ads showing two men walking hand in hand with the voice-over saying, "In Howard Dean's America homosexuality will be competing with our traditional American values. Howard Dean is the only governor to pass a law allowing a marriage-like union between people of the same sex. Is this the kind of America you want for your children?" Then the camera pan wide to show two children watching the gay couple."

Guess what... Dean is clearly willing to challenge Rove on equal rights for all Americans. As a matter of fact, me thinks you protest too much. All 9 candidates support Equal Rights for all Americans. So, for you to attack on THIS issue means you support policies that aren't supported by ANY POSSIBLE NOMINEE.

[ginchinchili]

48. You obviously didn't read my post carefully

There's nothing in my post that can be construed as anti-gay. I'm not at all. If I was, I would be encouraging people to support Howard Dean, Bush would win the election and then he'd pass an amendment to our Constitution prohibiting gay marriage. I'm trying to avoid that from happening. I applaud Dean for passing the civil unions legislation for gay couples. But Karl Rove has quite a different opinion and that's what we have to deal with in this election. I don't think you want to give Karl Rove this issue.

[mouse7]

51. READ MY LIPS. ALL 9 CANDIDATES support equal rights for all.

If you don't want to see equal rights for all as a plank on your candidate's platform, FIND ANOTHER POLITICAL PARTY. All 9 Candidates in THIS party support equal rights for all Americans.

[ginchinchili]

54. Now you're just being silly

It's easier make things up than to grapple with my points, only it serves no purpose and it sure won't help Dean. And I dare say, if you read your post you sound very much like many republicans I come across who say, "if you don't like Bush, then why don't you just leave the country," or something to that effect. I'm in this party despite those like yourself how what to dictate to people how to think.

[mouse7]

56. All 9 candidates have pro-GLBT civil rights planks. Not silly at all.

It's the truth. Get used to it. If you are looking for a candidate that does not suuport GLBT civil rights, you will have to find another party, because EVERY CANDIDATE in THIS party supports GLBT civil rights.

[ginchinchili]

64. So we agree on that point.

I agree with you. What's your point?

[mouse7]

67. So Rove will be using your "gay hate" ad on all Dem candidates. n/t

[ginchinchili]

22. You further demonstrate my point

If Democrats go into the general election with your attitude, they will lose the election. You can't say, "hey, if it applies to Bush then it has to apply to the Democratic candidate in kind. That's fair and logical." Are you really expecting a fair election? Give me a break. If the majority of Americans were as logical as you're being in the last presidential election then Bush wouldn't have come close enough to steal the election, nor would his current favorable ratings be at 58%. There now exists what I refer to as the 9/11 phenomenon which, for some reason, makes a majority of Americans overlook Bush's shortcomings and makes that majority want to like him. They perceive him as being strong and makes America safe.

The good news is that only about 45% of those people are completely convinced. The others are skeptical and those are the people who will decide this election. Dean's appeal is strong but has a narrow demographic. He's not strong with independents, moderate republicans, African-Americans, southerners, military personnel, and elderly, to name a few. The candidate who can beat Bush has to be able to pry away about 10% of Bush's lukewarm supporters and it has to be someone with broad appeal.

I won't apologize for expressing my opinion here because 1)that's what these boards are for, and 2)my country is at stake here and I'll do what I have to in order to help protect it from another 4 years of Bush. The truth is our best weapon. We just have to know how to wield it.

[mouse7]

46. Nope... All 9 candidates are for Equal Rights for all

The Democrats WILL be entering the general election with any of the possible nominees together on the issue of equal rights for all. If you payed any attention to the candidates or their policies, you would already know that.

If Rove want to turn this election into a referendum on Equal Rights for all Americans... (to quote his dimwit boss) bring it on!

[ginchinchili]

52. That Sounds Great

And, yes, equal rights will be an issue. But you're not going to get a Democrat elected by running on equal rights for all. If you'll reread my post you'll see that I'm using that as an example of how Karl Rove will paint Dean as a New England liberal. And if Democrats spend too much time and energy arguing in favor of gay marriage, they will lose that argument and it will hurt them over all. A successful candidate will emphatically state that they support gay unions and move on. The problem with Howard Dean, however, is that he is the only governor to pass legislation so it makes him appear to be promoting a liberal agenda. Now you and I are ok with this, but that 10% we're trying to pry away from Bush will not be thrilled.

[mouse7]

58. All the candidates raised hands at debate supporting civil unions

Every single one of them.

The Democratic Party of America has finished debating this issue. Every single candidate in the field supports it.

If you want a candidate that does not support them, you will have to look in another Party. All the candidates in THIS party support GLBT civil rights.

[bitchkitty]

53. Um -

that's completely untrue. I refer to your statement that "He's not strong with independents, moderate republicans, African-Americans, southerners, military personnel, and elderly, to name a few"

Don't position yourself as an expert because you're not. Dean's going to win.

[SCliberal73]

113. Dean & Mosley-Braun

Couldn't Dean's VP pick, someone like Ambassador Mosley-Braun for instance, help him pick up some extra numbers among various demographic groups?

[HumanPatriot]

2. Can I have my time machine back...

how insightful you've become using it.

</sarcasm>

[LuminousX]

3. I really don't have a problem with people stating opinions

But what discussion does this create? Do we once again rehash whether all these positions make Dean electable or not? We can, but I will guarantee you that it will turn into a flame fest as there is no objective data to back up either side.

What sort of responses are you expecting within this thread?

[ginchinchili]

23. Good; then you shouldn't have a problem with me stating mine.

I don't check with other posters for approval before I post something.

[LuminousX]

25. I don't, I said I don't. But why didn't you answer any of my questions?

The key one being... what discussion did you expect this thread to create? What kind of response did you want?

[ginchinchili]

29. My hope is to get at least one Dean supporter to reconsider

Now what kind of discussion comes about is not up to me. But if I was a Dean supporter, I might,for example, try to explain why Dean doesn't need any experience in the military or foreign policy to beat Bush. I'm all ears. Just don't say, "Well, Bush didn't have any," because that position won't garner Dean any extra votes, and that's what this is all about.

It seems to me that your frustration comes from the fact that you don't know how to refute my concerns so you think it would be better for me to just not post them.

[LuminousX]

31. These concerns have been addressed many times

We are now dealing with personal perception of what is needed to attain victory. I can guarantee nothing a Dean supporter says will convince you one way or another, so why bother trying?

[ginchinchili]

34. Are you claiming that you speak for everyone?

If you have no response, fine. But you're not the only one on these boards and I'm going to assume that there are people with opinions that are different from yours.

[LuminousX]

37. Can you imagine a realistic response that would convince you

Convince you to support Dean?

[ginchinchili]

40. Try me.

However, my post is not about convincing me to support Dean. If you want to start a thread with that as a topic, go ahead. I encourage you. But if you're going to post on this thread you might want to try addressing the concerns I'm expressing about Howard Dean. In all the typing you've done, you would have served Dean a lot better by spending that time refuting what I've posted. But apparently, you're unable to, so instead you're just complaining because what I'm posting is making your guy look bad.

[mouse7]

62. Let Rove allow Dean to win the election with a 9/11 Flight 91 ad

If Rove tries to win by playing the Gay hatred card, Dean comes right back with this...



Mark Bingham

In a tragic way, Mark Bingham spent much of his life preparing for what happened to him on Sept. 11. As he boarded United Flight 93, Bingham carried with him a sense of confidence and competitiveness, the friendship of those close to him and those of us who never got to meet him.

Mark Bingham, all 6-feet, 5-inches of him, loved a lot of things: food and wine shared with good company, discussions on politics, travel to foreign lands and laughing with friends.

Rugby was also a big part of his life. He was a sophomore on Cal State's 1991 national championship team—the squad that started a string of 11 consecutive national titles.

"The unique thing about that '91 team is that we were pretty close because of what we had to go through in training to win," says team-mate Jon Beck, who stayed in touch with Bingham over the years.

After college he played for The Fog, a San Francisco gay rugby team.

Bingham built his public relations firm into one of the most respected small agencies in America with offices in San Francisco and New York.

Bingham never strayed from a fight. He played to win always using the skills he learned in college rugby.

September 11, he used those same skills to protect a nation.

As the flight was taken over by terrorists, Bingham and a few other courageous men fought back.

The burly Bingham, used his cell phone to call his mother and tell her the plane was being hijacked – and that he loved her.

Moments later the plane crashed into a Pennsylvania farm field.

"I may very well owe my life to Mark," U.S. Senator John McCain said at a Berkeley service earlier this year honouring Bingham. "I love my country and take pride in serving her. But I cannot say that I love her more or as well as Mark Bingham did."

Transcripts from the flight recorded, McCain said, showed that the terrorists had intended to crash the plane into the US Capitol building.

Sen. Arlen Specter said he will nominate Bingham and the other passengers on the plane for the Freedom Medal.

Friends remembered Bingham as a big loveable bear of a man ready for anything. One time he raced across traffic to save a child from being run down, another he ran with the bulls in Spain a friend recalled.

"He was this physically imposing but incredibly compassionate and intelligent man who would not have stood by and let terrorists kill thousands more people," said Bryce Eberhart, a team-mate of Bingham's.

"He would say, 'Oh, well, this is an excellent opportunity to learn fill-in-the-blank,' and he meant it," said friend Brian Johnson.

Bingham's mother, Alice Hogan, said: "It gives me a great deal of comfort to know my son may have been able to avert the killing of many, many innocent people."

[ginchinchili]

68. This is a very moving account, but...

Ironically, it quotes two republicans who sympathize and support the memory of Mark Bingham. How is this going to help Dean? Rove is not going to say, "Bush hates gays." He's much too smart for that.

Listen, you're obviously young and very passionate about Howard Dean. I respect that. This election will probably be the ugliest election this country has ever seen. We have to be smarter than Rove and, well, we ARE smarter than Bush, but Rove is a tricky rascal and shouldn't be taken for granted. They're playing for keeps. If I felt Dean had the best chance of beating Bush I'd be defending him at least as much as you are. But I don't believe Dean can do it. That's my opinion. You have another opinion and that's fine. But don't attack me because you don't agree with my opinion. That's how Democrats lose. I want to win.

[mouse7]

71. Wrong twice

I'm not young, and I'm not a Dean supporter. I'm a Wellstone Dem waiting for the party to choose a nominee.

I also spent my first 30 years in the South and grew up hearing those very same words used in relation to the treatment of African-Americans. It was disgusting then, and it was disgusting now.

You want to sacrifice core party priniciples so your gang of white guys will be in charge instead of their gang of white guys. Well, we've tired of Zell Miller's vision for the Democratic Party.

Go away.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mouse7]

80. Attacking me scores you no points in an issues debate

In case you didn't know this, an attack on me is not confused by anyone as anything supportive of your case. In fact, it's usually the first indiaction that the attacker has run out of reasons for anyone to support their position.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ginchinchili]

55. Ok, Cut and Paste my racist rhetoric. Show me a racist quote.

You are unable to debate so you try to create issues that don't exist. I won't waste any more time with you.

[mouse7]

59. You asked...

"Rove will paint Dean as another New England liberal and to "prove" their point, they'll run ads showing two men walking hand in hand with the voice-over saying, "In Howard Dean's America homosexuality will be competing with our traditional American values. Howard Dean is the only governor to pass a law allowing a marriage-like union between people of the same sex. Is this the kind of America you want for your children?" Then the camera pan wide to show two children watching the gay couple."

[ginchinchili]

63. LOL There's not one word about race in that quote

Not a word. Nor is there any anti-gay rhetoric. Now if I said that I agreed with Karl Rove then that would be anti-gay. But as I've already said, I don't agree with Rove and I don't want Dean to get the nomination because if he does we just might end up with a Constitutional amendment banning gay marriages. Now if I was anti-gay, why would I state that I'm against banning gay marriages? Ironically, last night I was on the phone for over an hour speaking to a friend who happens to be gay. We've been friends for about 16 years.

[mouse7]

65. OH WOW!... You have friends that are gay.

You didn't really expect me to respond positively to that, did you?

If you were as concerned about an amendment as you claim, you'd know that there's no whay inhell it can pass, and therefore would stop being concerned.

No... this is the same BS bigotry masquerading as concern that been around since day one of human history...

You're saying, "Don't ask for civil rights... if you ask for civil rights, I'll be forced to abandon all displays of tolerance for you and then you'll be on your own."

[ginchinchili]

70. Whatever...

[maxanne]

115. wrong

if you were a Dean supporter, you'd be trying to think of a way to say that you've heard this stuff repeatedly, and it's a yawn, in a polite enough way to keep from getting alerted on.

[seaglass]

39. How about if some Dean supporters thought of effective ways

to respond to these points? If Dean makes it to the GE, he will have to. It would be nice to get some creative responses rather than to disregard the argument, unless you think that national security/foreign policy experience is not important in this election.

[ginchinchili]

41. Very Good Point

If you're a Dean supporter, you're going to have to address these issues at sometime or another. You can't keep avoiding them.

[bearfartinthewoods]

86. give it up

i've been asking your question for months. they don't want to deal with the issue. it doesn't matter that, if he does win, they will have to.

they'll just think about it tommorow.................

[ginchinchili]

110. I'm afraid you're right

And that would be bad news for the Democrats. But it's this kind of avoidance of potentially damaging issues that will contribute to Dean's failure to secure the nomination. Democrats want to win.

[jmaier]

4. This sort of post is not

going to convince anyone here but it will lead to a long, tedious flame war. I think it's always better to stay positive about your candidate (mine is Clark).

You cannot win an electability argument without an election. :-)

[childslibrarian]

9. I agree

This kind of post is unproductive and will not really change anyone's mind.

[HumanPatriot]

10. or a time machine...

of which, the poster has neither, so its best for them to just chill out and use such energy towards more important endevours, such as going outside now and then.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Democrats unite]

5. Well in Deans Defense...

The majority of the Candidates are very Gay friendly & IMO I don't think that that issue would be able to be held against Dean. Most AMericans see it for what it is & Gay marriage is picking up steam. I see it as helping Dean.

[ginchinchili]

27. I Think Dean Should Be Applauded For His Courage On This Issue

Right or wrong is not the point. I support civil unions. I'd support the right to a gay marriage. But my positions on issues don't matter here. If we want to beat Bush we have to be able to predict what Karl Rove is going to do and the effect it will have on the general population, particularly that 10% of independent/moderate/Bush-lite/swing voters. I assure you, they won't be particularly impressed with Dean's gay initiative, particularly after the way it will be presented to us via Karl Rove. You got to remember, the majority of the country is presently leaning to the right. To win, we have to puncture that bubble of perception that has Bush looking like the national security president. A candidate without military and/or foreign policy experience can't do it. I don't care what kind of background Bush had.

[bearfartinthewoods]

90. yes...picking up steam...with dean as the engineer

most Americans are not happy with the change that is coming and could view dean as an agent of that change.

[David Dunham]

6. What About ABC's New Story on Dean's Wife-Beating Trooper?

Go to ABC website.

[LuminousX]

28. Do you feel that is a good attack against Dean?

Or are you pointing out that story for some other reason?

[mouse7]

49. More smears. Dean released trooper within 1st month of investigation

ABC News is saying the abuse happened for a while and Dean should have psychically known years before the police knew this trooper was abusive.

As a matter of fact, Dean is being sue by this trooper for pulling him off from his detail as quick as he did. In fact, state law is against Dean. Dean may have acted improperly by ACTING AS QUICK as he did to remove the trooper.

[Khephra]

7. Do you walk around with a billboard saying, "THE END IS NIGH!!!"

During the offseason? If not, I think perhaps you should look into it. YOU'RE PERFECT FOR THE JOB!

This Dean supporter is awake, thank you.

[John_H]

30. ginchinchili's bilboard would say, "Reality may suck, but it's still real"

Perhaps you could explain in detail how the point that swing voters will bescared away from voting for a national-security-experience-free candidate is incorrect. Of course, "POOP" and snippy personal attacks like yours appear to be preferred method Dean Supporter discussion, but it would be refreshing to hear why Dean is electable on national security.

I'll work 24-7 to prove myself wrong if disaster strikes and Dean created a bandwagon big enough to get the nomination, but Chimp will beat Dean by at least five, and probably closer to ten points.

[Khephra]

32. And choosing someone with no domestic political experience

to hold the highest office in the land is the answer? If my stand is wrong, then supporting anyone who hasn't held office is as wrong as well. If Dean is weak on foreign policy then Clark is just as weak (if not more since there's been plenty of Presidents without military/foreign policy experience) as Dean.

[ginchinchili]

38. Ordinarily, I'd agree with you.

As I said in another post, these are not ordinary times. You have to ask yourself two things: 1)why do Bush's lukewarm supporters continue to support him, and 2)how is Rove going to sell Bush this time around. There should be a direct correlation between the two answers.

As I also mentioned in another post, 9/11 (and the Rove/Bush propaganda machine) has Americans trusting in Bush to provide national security. Don't ask me why because that's something I've wondered about since 9/11 and I still don't understand. I don't see how Bush's poll numbers are over 30% (and I'm being kind when I say that). But I really don't see people being particularly enamored with Bush's domestic policies. I don't see people dying to get back to the moon at the expense of the national economy. The illegal immigrant proposal got a mixed reception. The Medicare plan got mixed reviews. I think No Child Left Behind got a good reception, but it's come under a lot of criticism, particularly from the states. Bush's tax cuts have strong support from less than 50% of the population. My point is this, the candidate who can beat Bush has to have good domestic policies to offer America, but domestic policy is not going to be the battleground. National security is.

You mention Wesley Clark's lack of political experience and experience on domestic issues. Clark is an exception compared to just about anyone else who might think of running for president having never held office before. The biggest plus Clark has going for him that will help in plugging the holes in his resume is an extraordinarily keen intellect. That is already serving him well. Here is a man who has never run for office and in just a short period of time, he's on the verge of out-campaigning all the his experienced opponents. But also remember, Clark has a Master's degree in political science. In addition, Clark has a Master's degree in economics. It's no coincidence that his tax policy proposal is the most attractive of all the other positions on tax policy, including Bush's. Clark also had experience overseeing a community of military personnel, particularly when he was the Supreme Allied Commander of NATO. It's not the strongest domestic resume, but it's enough. Don't believe me? Consider this, Clark seems like an old hack at domestic policy if you compare him to Arnold Schwarzenegger, and Karl Rove is VERY aware of that fact. Remember, Arnold won in a landslide. Clark would only need 51%.

No, the battle will be fought over who can make America the safest and who is the most likable. Clark can successfully compete with Bush on both.

[mouse7]

50. Democrats will take on Rove on Equal Rights for all

Go ahead. Let Rove define the campaign on denying civil rights to some Americans. We'll fight on that battleground.

[ginchinchili]

111. You have to be more specific

[ginchinchili]

35. Thank you. The truth is our best weapon.

And let me make it clear: my reality is fine. America's political reality is a nightmare.

[joefree1]

8. Vote your fear not your hope

I have five words for you: Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy, Carter, Clinton. They all faced military crisis and none of them are/were Generals.


Images from Dean Rocks the House of Blues, Hollywood
From wtmusic http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=919849
From Joefree1 http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=921300

[Democrats unite]

12. How did Generals get brought into this?

eom

[joefree1]

14. extreme contrast for sake of argument

As in you don't have to be a military General to be President.

[DemBones DemBones]

26. Both Kennedy and Carter were Naval officers,

Kennedy a WW II hero who served despite a painful back problem that got him rejected by the Army, Carter a graduate of the United States Naval Academy.

Since the last presidential election, the United States has been attacked, making security an issue as it's never been before. Will a lack of military experience hurt a candidate? No one really knows, but pretending nothing has changed since 2000 is foolish.

[PassingFair]

98. ...and Lincoln

was no general, either. Leave the generals for the battlefields.
P.S. Dean polls higher among African Americans than with any other single voting block. In fact, other than (and maybe even including) white males, just what dem candidate polls higher with any voting block than Dean?

[Demobrat]

13. OMG, you're on to us.

See, us Dean supporters really want Bush for four more years, so we're backing a candidate who's sure to lose to make sure that happens. What gave us away?

[candy331]

15. Keep the scare tactics to yourself

we are sick of these scare tactics if Dean can't win then none of the candidates can win. I'd rather gamble on a fighter than the enablers that we have now.

[Demobrat]

21. SNARF.

OK,honey.

[mmonk]

16. Rove can't defend bush though

on things that have already happened and can be used. Dean or another if not Dean can make the case. It will be down just to two in the general election and the public can hear the arguments then.

[ginchinchili]

33. Have you seen Bush's poll numbers?

Rove can and will defend Bush. How effective it will be depends on the candidate who is running against him and how effective his campaign is. NEVER UNDERESTIMATE KARL ROVE. DO, AND PERISH.

Let me be clear; I strongly believe Bush can be beat. But right now Dean is the front runner and if more people like me don't start voicing their opinion on Dean, we're going to end up with a candidate who can't beat Bush. I like Dean. He's got a lot of good attributes. But at this point in time in this country, Howard Dean can't beat George W. Bush. If things were different, he'd be able to with no problem. But we have to recognize things for what they are. These are not ordinary times.

[maddezmom]

17. so who is your candidate in the democratic primary?

are you undecided?

[EstimatedProphet]

19. You're making one huge assumption

and that's that the kind of attack you put forward can't be fought. I think it can.
Do you read Bartcop? I like Bartcop, even subscribe to it, but I think Bart's wrong that he seems to believe that a campaign like this would mean that Dean should just fold up and quit. It does have a weakness, and the weakness lies in not arguing against that campaign, but reframing it in a positive light. I don't know how to do this, but I do still think it can be done by someone who knows how.
Face it, any candidate we pick is going to have a weakness that is exploitable somehow. BushRove Inc. is going to try and exploit it as hard as they can. But, Dean is not a novice to elections-EVERY election is that way. Every election that a Republican is in has dirty trick commercials-it's their speciality. Dean didn't just fall off the turnip wagon. If you're saying that there's no way he can come back against arguments like you suggest, then you're saying the arguments are invincible. I don't believe they are.
BTW for the record, I am split between Dean and Clark 50/50.

[ginchinchili]

44. GREAT PICTURE!

I don't assume that the questions about Dean's electability can't be fought. Dean is doing that now. The question is, can that fight be won. I don't think it can. You say yourself that you don't know how. I'm wondering who does. If Dean got the nomination he'd have to fight that fight. But I can't think of any realistic scenario in which he wins, unless things go really wrong in Iraq and the economy takes a dive. We can't depend on that happening. I don't know how many elections you've been through but I can tell you that you can't take anything for granted. That's true now more than ever. Vote for whomever you want, but of the two choices your considering, Wesley Clark has the best chance. Democrats are beginning to realize that and that's why he's catching up to Dean.

[EstimatedProphet]

109. Been traveling, so I couldn't get back to you until now (long)

I guess we'll have to disagree then. I do think that the fight can be won, by making Rove play on our terms. Things are already really going wrong in Iraq (notice that we're no safer with SH captured, attacks go on still) and the economy (big 1000 jobs created last month, whee). The economy will flatline very soon. Why? All the drive for it will fizzle out, since jobs aren't being rebuilt. How will GDP remain positive with no one at work? What about new housing starts-new housing construction will crash, if no one has a job and can afford to buy a house. All these things are bad for the economy, and they are well on their way (BTW for any Freepers hovering over my shoulder, I am NOT glorifying in the country doing bad. I don't want the country to do bad, which is why I want Bush out, and Freepers out too.)to showing up.
I agree with you that Rove is a master of the spin, and he will try to make Dean seem like a liberal elitist. BUT, this doesn't mean it has to stick. Dean is experienced enough with campaigning to avoid being framed by someone else, which I think is evidenced by how well and how fast he pulled ahead of the pack, and stayed there. I think that with a lot of our party members there's an innate fear now that we will repeat 1984 and 1988 again. But, there's no way that's going to happen. Here's why:
In 1984, Mondale ran with Ferrarro. Mondale was completely outclassed. He had effectively run for an elected office once (Senator from MN), and was running solely based on Carter's coattails. Mondale simply didn't know how to run a campaign.
In 1988, Dukakis got creamed with the images of the tank, and the Willie Horton issue (which is what I expect everyone is afraid of repeating). His problem is that he chose to not answer those attacks, but tried instead to focus solely on the issues. The net result is that the negative images stuck in people's heads, and were never counteracted.
So, we have in one case a candidate who simply didn't know how to campaign, and in the other case, we have a candidate that let attacks on him stick. You're right in that I don't know for sure anything about the upcoming election since anything can happen, but I am 95% sure that Dean has more savvy than to let either of these things happen.
I agree that Clark has a strong chance to beat Bush. I like him more every time I hear him. I don't know that he will be better at campaigning than Dean though, because he doesn't have the experience that Dean does. Be that as it may though, the main reason (long story not short, I know:) ) that I don't agree with you on Dean's chances is that what you are arguing in it's own way applies to every candidate; not the GBLT thing, but that Rove will pick a weakness for every candidate he can and beat on it, and if we don't have a campaign specialist that will be able to turn it around it will stick. Dean he will try to paint as a Northeastern liberal who wants to bring gays into your house, I agree. What will he say about Clark? Probably something to the effect that a general will try to turn the country into a police state, or that he has no touch with how difficult it is to be middle class, etc. Kucinich, he will hit as an anti-gun nut tree-hugger, Kerry, as post-traumatic stress disorder nutcase, etc. He will try very hard to malign anyone we pick, and it has just as much chance of resonating with the public for any of the candidates. No one we pick will be immune, I'll bet. What we have to do (and all of us at DU can help do this too, by brainstorming on what TO do) is try to figure out how to deal with this best. Personally, I'd say to try to turn any Rove attack around so that it looks foolish and funny.
My apologies for the length.

[ClintonTyree]

20. Thanks for your opinion..............

I happen to think your assumptions are incorrect, but we're all entitled to an opinion.

[ginchinchili]

45. You shouldn't just say I'm wrong without explaining why

It's interesting to me that no one is refuting my concerns that I have about a Howard Dean nomination. That only serves to support my position.

[John_H]

24. Complete obviousness is not obvious enough

The brilliance of the Dean strategy, selling their campaign as "power to the people" movement, has made it just feel too damn good for many who've gotten caught up in the movement to see just how badly Dean will get beaten. Tragically, the the only people whom the Dean movement will ultimitely provide power will be Chimp and his cabal.

Everything point in your post is exactly correct, and none of the Dean supporters have been able to subantively argue your points, instead resorting to their most used technique--snippy, unclever personal attacks.

[Chomskyite]

36. I'd advise you to listen to a little talk radio and watch some Fox

The Republicans foam at the mouth about Dean. They are afraid of him. They mention none of the other candidates. It's all Dean all the time for the Right-wing.

Why are they afraid of him being nominated?

What is your answer?

[ginchinchili]

60. I Don't Agree With Your Assumption

I don't know where you get the idea that republicans are afraid of Dean. Everything I've seen or read says just the opposite. Dean is the perfect candidate for Bush to run against for the reasons I stated in a previous post (above). Tucker Carlson was even wearing a Dean pin (don't know if he still is because I don't watch). I heard William Saffire say just last weekend on Meet The Press that he hoped Dean wins the nomination because he's a conservative and want's Bush to win. There was even a republican website encouraging republicans to donate to Dean's campaign. Wake up, people. Dean can't beat Bush.

[arewethereyet]

95. to paraphrase 'dont you throw Brer Dean in the briar patch'

Dean, being the front runner and their first choice to be nominated, gets chatted up specifically to incite the Dean faithful into even more lockstepped support of their guy.

There are two outcomes, Dean keeps his edge by scaring hos half million supporters to raid their savings more (and perhaps there is some help from the right, perhaps not) and he gets the nomination but without broad support as he spent that money being angry. Or he finally crumbles leaving Clark who has a equally narrow base and is as fragile in his background as Dean. Win win.

The secret weapon is Edwards. Populist, lovable platform broadbased and centrist. Has a really good lawyer's abilty to connect to people and is a natural polititian a la Clinton.

They fear no one at all but because of that Edwards could be more formidible than they anticipate. And I really think he's the only one who could rally the party.

[ginchinchili]

99. If Clark's base is so narrow, why is he ahead of Edwards in all polls

Clark has the broadest base of all the candidates. I don't think you can successfully argue that Edwards has broader demographics than Clark when Clark is leading Edwards in every poll, and by a wide margin except in South Carolina, where Edwards SHOULD be leading Clark, but isn't. Don't get me wrong, I like Edwards, but to suggest that Edwards' base is broader than Clark's is ignoring the facts. Clark attracts liberal Democrats, moderate Dems, independents, moderate republicans, military, minority, elderly, educated, rural, I sure he has broader support than anyone. In fact I saw a poll this morning that pointed this out.

[arewethereyet]

103. at this moment and in the primaries, no arguments on base

when it comes to general election time I think all that changes and its this to which I'm referring.

But even now, no candidate has much of a chunk of base level support and I'd argue that it may be wiser to look at the ratio of the difference of two candidate's support to to get a better feel. Lets say Clark has 20% backing and Edwards 5%. Well on one hand it's a 400% margin but in the other had the difference is only 15% of the total. If my math is faulty, its late, forgive me.

Clark's military career is a polarizing element, plus to some, negative to others. The rivalry between Dean and Clark will have a chilling effect as well.

Like Sara Lee, nobody doesn't like Edwards. This is why current polls are as they are and I'm fine with that. I think everyone is seeing that Edwards' neutral path is paying dividends in war torn Iowa. Should he do well there he will get a natural bounce in NH and if he shows well there then its a whole new ballgame.

Gotta be careful with polls.

I fully conceed the present state of polling to Clark but I reserve the right to note changes if and when they occur. Fair ?

[Hoppin_Mad]

42. LOL - More Rove talking points - not worth the pixels on my screen -nt-

[ginchinchili]

57. "...Ignorance is strength" George - Think About It

If you're going to use a quote, you should think about it.

[RetroLounge]

61. More Poop

eom

[arewethereyet]

66. don't agree with all of that but I thnk the jist of it is valid

the republican campaign machine has far too much material to use against Dr Dean and its really good material.

Don't forget they have buildings full of people who's only job it is to find the very best ways to shape perception. The work long hours and compete for production dollars to gin these ideas into ads.

Now sure they can point this thing at anyone presented (they're working all the possibles and have been for months) but for goodness sake, we really need to choose someone with fewer flaws.

We really need John Edwards.

[ginchinchili]

72. Thank You. If Democrats want to win we can't take Rove for granted

Any possible angle of attack, Rove will find. And if that doesn't work, he'll make something up. Look what they did to Max Cleland, a paraplegic from his service in Nam. They ran an ad questioning his patriotism and had a picture of him along side of a picture of bin Laden. We can't underestimate Rove. And, yes, Dean is too vulnerable. Democrats are waking up to that. I like Edwards a lot. He's my second choice. I'm supporting Wesley Clark. I think Clark stands the best chance of beating Bush, but I think Edwards would have a chance. In my opinion he's the only other candidate who has any chance.

[seaglass]

74. I like Clark and Edwards too, but my first choice is Kerry.

I realize he will get the MA liberal label and he may get the gay marriage attacks because of the MA Supreme Court decision. I'd be interested in your take about any other points of attack on Kerry, if you've thought about it.

[arewethereyet]

81. Kerry is my #2

painting him as Kennedy's protege is powerful. but he is statesmanlike and can use those skills effectively.

I think the cussing will actually be a campaign level negative as well as callig out the other candidates. Edwards has done a little of this but he's been a little less direct and generally only as it pertains to him personally.

I would like to see Edwards/Kerry. I don't think it's as effective as the other way round but that may be bias on my part. Don't take this the wrong way but think back how Chaney was attached to Bush as mentor and serious behind the scenes warrior. Kerry has the resume and then some, Edwards has the personal charm and charisma. OK, forget the other example, use Carter/Mondale or even Clinton/Gore, the point is complimentary skillsets.

[seaglass]

88. I'd like to see Kerry/Edwards but I'd be happy with

Edwards/Kerry too.

Too bad we couldn't clone them into one.

[ginchinchili]

82. Kerry would make a strong candidate, but I don't think he can win

It should go without saying that Kerry blows Bush away in any comparison you make of the two men. In fact, he's got the all around best balanced resume. Kerry's got a few problems, just problematic enough to lose to Bush by a small margin. The New England liberal thing would be used against Kerry but I think he could deflect that because of his military background. It's difficult to paint a war hero as too liberal and Rove has to be careful with Kerry or Clark because he doesn't want to create a situation where Americans are comparing Bush's laughable "military service" to either of theirs (This is not to say that service in the National Guard is laughable. It is to say that BUSH's service in the NG was laughable.)

The thing that worries me about Kerry is that he is too much an old school Washington politician. I think people are wanting change and it will be hard to convince the voters that Kerry is the man for change. Of course, the obvious response is, what the hell is Bush? That's what we have to be careful about. Bush breaks the mold in the worst kind of way. Yes, I think there are enough people who want change to unseat Bush. But they have to be convince first. That should be simple but it won't be. Also, I think Kerry has difficulty stirring up a lot of passion in people. He will have to convince those lukewarm Bush supporters that he's the man. That he is exciting and will bring about a new day in America. I think he'd have a hard time doing that. And that's why I support Clark. He can capture America's imagination. I hate making this comparison, but consider Arnold Schwarzenegger except instead of a comic strip character you get the real thing.

[arewethereyet]

83. an alternative view on the insider notion

when the smoke clears we're going to be looking at a republican Congress, both sides and not a razor thin margin.

No president can just snap his fingers and have the Congress do his bidding. There is compromise, there is negotiation, there is politics.

Maybe its particularly importent this time out to have someone who DOES understand how things happen.

Its just an idea which should be considered as a selling point for those with Washington experience. I admit that it could be the albatross that many seem to think it is.

Edwards is a really nice compromise in that he has been around long enough and is smart enough to have learned it and has the committee assignments to demonstrate he's respected on the hill. But on the other hand, his MAIN residence is in North Carolina. Al Gore did not do well in his home state because he hadn't been a resident there in like decades.

[ginchinchili]

89. I think that's a valid point

The pros and cons of being an insider may balance each other out. But Kerry is a deeply entrenched Democrat. Good for us, but an anathema to republicans. In my opinion, that's another strength of Clark's. If Clark gets into office with the support of independents and moderate republicans, and, of course, all of the Democrats, the republicans are going to find themselves in the same predicament that Democratic legislators in California are finding themselves in now. Refuse to play ball with the new guy who has strong support from all walks of life (except staunch republicans) and you run the risk being replaced with someone who will.

[seaglass]

87. I've thought about some of the concerns you've

expressed. I think Kerry is finally starting to hit his stride in stirring people up, but I don't know if it will be enough. I'm not sure how being a Washington politician would be a mark against him in the GE because clearly Bush can no longer claim to be an outsider but I do understand how this could be a negative for him in the primaries.

Anyway, thanks for your input.

[ginchinchili]

101. Kerry is a strong candidate and highly qualified

The sad thing is that any of the candidates should be able to beat Bush, but it's like there is a spell cast over America and they've been, if I can borrow a book title, blinded by the right. We need superman to break this spell. But since superman's not available, Clark is the next closest thing.

[arewethereyet]

78. nothing personal but your guy is more vunerable than Dr Dean

to the Rove-arians.

They can vaporize him on his military career and thats really about all he has as a bona fide asset.

They can call Edwards an ambulance chaser and say that he voted like a democrat. But his platform has withstood a years scrutiny and been found to be sound and viable. And NOBODY can connect to people like this guy, its WHY he made so much money at the bar.

[ginchinchili]

84. Rove, nor anyone, can "vaporize" a 4 Star Gen's military career

Rove would try to poke holes in Clark's career, but to say he would vaporize the military career of a man who served his country for 34 years which started by graduating first in his class from West Point, serving in Viet Nam where he took 4 AK 47 rounds but continued leading his men to win the battle. Returning to his men as soon as he recovered in the hospital from his wounds. Working his way up to the rank of 4 Star General and Supreme Allied Commander of NATO directing all of the different NATO armies in a successful war in Kosovo. No, I strongly have to disagree. You can't vaporize a military career like that. And for every military officer that had anything negative to say about Clark, you'll find 10 who will say something positive.

Rove would run the risk of forcing a comparison between his liver-lilied candidate and a true American hero who has done nothing all his life but serve his country with honor and distinction. And Rove's attacks can backfire. If he goes after Clark's military career too much it will look like Bush is siding against the military. He is running this risk as it is because of Iraq, cutting back VA benefits, banning retirement for military personnel, etc. Clark has a lot of military people supporting him. That's just another one of the pluses that you get with a Clark candidacy. He'll steal military votes from Bush like no one else can.

[arewethereyet]

85. I do not question his valor in combat and neither will the right

but there will be things like this to deal with and if some reporter can piece this together, imagine what else Powell and company can chip in...

http://mujweb.atlas.cz/www/kutija/nw000515.htm

[ginchinchili]

92. That's interesting, and thanks for posting the link

But I don't see it as a big issue that could hurt Clark. For one thing, there are too many republicans that would be hurt from that so Rove is unlikely to use it. Also, Clark pressed hard for ground troops, at least to make them available. Clinton, on the advice of Defense Sec. William Cohen, said no. That article is pointing out the limits to an air war and is arguing that the results were overstated. In addition, we don't know if the story is true. That would have to be proved first. And even if it is true, I don't think people will be that upset over us exaggerating about how many tanks we blew up or enemy soldiers were killed. That kind of exaggeration comes with every war. We won the war without any American casualties. And finally, it would have to be proved that Clark is the reason behind the exaggeration, and that is highly unlikely. It would really be hard to tear down a stellar career like Clark's had.

[arewethereyet]

104. anything is possible

but this will not sit well with military people, old people and a number of others.

Curiosly enough Shelton could take the bullet singlehandedly for the right on this blaming it on Clark and Clinton so he gets a wink from the right and the left get to say 'take that' for his backhanded jibes at Clark. It would go a long way toward explaining why it was him that said it and that he said as little as he did.

Guess we'll just have to see how all this plays out.

Should be a wild ride !

[Duder]

69. As Christopher Caldwell wrote...

But there is no concrete political reason why Dean should be less electable than any of his rivals.
People forget that "electability" used to be a synonym for "large advertising budget." Dean has the latter;
therefore he has the former.

[ginchinchili]

75. Then why didn't that work for Bush Sr. or Bob Dole?

It takes more than money to win a campaign. Money's very important, but you have to have the right candidate with the right message. Dean is not that candidate.

[Duder]

91. Because it doesn't apply to the GE

Read about it and then go out and register more voters.

Money Is All in Nomination Campaigns, Group Says
By David Morgan

MANCHESTER, N.H. (Reuters) - If recent history is any guide, Howard Dean may have locked up the presidential nomination at midnight on New Year's Eve when he became 2003's best-funded Democratic hopeful, a public-interest group said on Wednesday.

Research into campaign funding by the Washington-based Center for Public Integrity shows that since the mid-1970s every party nomination has gone to the candidate who raised the most money the year before the election and qualified for federal matching funds.

The center is a nonprofit group that conducts independent research into issues of public interest including government accountability.

"It's true for both parties," said Charles Lewis, the center's executive director and author of the book "The Buying of the President 2004" (HarperCollins), which charts the role played by money in modern presidential politics.

[ginchinchili]

93. The problem with that is Clark has just about as much as Dean

Clark has raised almost as much as Dean and Dean has spent a boatload in Iowa. Clark just may have more than Dean at this point.

[MoonRiver]

76. You got it!

:kick:

[kayleybeth]

77. This is flame bait

ginchinchili, I am not a fan of HD's either, but I really don't think this kind of thread is necessary. Let's take the high road, and concentrate on building our candidate up instead of tearing other candidates down, shall we?

GO WES GO!!!!!

[MoonRiver]

79. Wes is the won who can win and deliver this country

from the brink of annihilation by bush*s fascist hordes. He's also IMO the best candidate to restore what's best in America for Americans.

[ginchinchili]

96. AMEN!

[LuminousX]

107. You mean 'one' and sadly your assertion is wrong also.

[ginchinchili]

94. Tearing Down?

Where am I tearing Dean down? Saying that I don't think he can win isn't tearing him down. I state that and I give my case. I don't think I've insulted him anywhere on this board. I like Dean. I just want to get Bush out of office and if that makes me appear rude, then so be it. But I don't think I'm being rude. I think I'm being honest and we have to deal with the truth if we want to win.

[PassingFair]

102. It doesn't make sense...

to replace Bush with a republican lobbyist.

Dean has widespread, grassroots support. He is our first truly populist offering since Truman. He polls well across ALL demographics. He is the choice of informed democrats. He is not a crazy liberal, but a common sense centrist.
Why are you buying into the repuke/DLC spin about Dean being crazy?
The arguments lose credibility when you realize that Dean hasn't lost his temper at all. He is a great speaker, and is the right man for this job. When I get disheartened by all the media muck, Dean always reminds me of why I got behind him from the first, he FIGHTS back. And that is what is lacking from the other dem candidates. I am in awe of fact that your fear of Rove is so great, that you will vote for a recent republican rather than believe that the people can and will decide who will work for us in the White House.

[bain_sidhe]

97. If you think you're beaten, you are

Please stop saying Dean is unelectable. What' if he ends up being the nominee?

If you think you are beaten, you are;
If you think you dare not, you don’t.
If you’d like to win, but think you can’t,
It’s almost a cinch you won’t.
If you think you’ll lose, you’re lost,
For out in the world we find
Success begins with a fellow’s will;
It’s all in the state of mind.

If you think you’re outclassed, you are;
You’ve got to think high to rise.
You’ve got to be sure of yourself before
You can ever win a prize.
Life’s battles don’t always go
To the stronger or faster man;
But soon or late the man who wins
Is the one who thinks he can.

--WALTER D. WINTLE, “The Man Who Thinks He Can.”

[ginchinchili]

100. What if he is? It still won't change the facts.

If Dean gets the nomination I'll certainly vote for him. But that doesn't change the fact that he can't win. But I'll vote for him anyway.

[frustrated_lefty]

105. This meme is tiresome, but I'll reply one more time

You said:

"There is no way voters in America will replace Bush with someone that has no military or foreign policy experience. We're effectively engaged in 3 complicated, nontraditional wars: Iraq, Afghanistan and the broader war on terrorism. Americans are afraid and Karl Rove and co. will stoke that fear with 200 million dollars. Dean and his shrinking numbers of supporters are just whistling past the graveyard."

Of those 3 wars, the only one we have invested a significant number of troops into, currently, is Iraq. Increasingly, there is evidence that the war in Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism and had much to do with a Bush private agenda. The unjustified war in Iraq detracted resources from a justified war on terrorism.

We don't need a military leader, we need a diplomatic leader who can speak honestly. I think Dean, Kerry, Kucinich, Edwards, or Moseley-Braun could fit that bill. We need a leader who can re-join the international community.

You said:

"On national security, while Dean was governor of Vermont the Yankee Nuclear Power Plant was rated the least secure nuclear facility in the United States. Rove will have a field day with that."

It wasn't 3-mile island. How do you define "safe?" Did it have the necessary safeguards in place? Or are you simply talking about the number of security guards?

You said:

"Rove will paint Dean as another New England liberal and to "prove" their point, they'll run ads showing two men walking hand in hand with the voice-over saying, "In Howard Dean's America homosexuality will be competing with our traditional American values. Howard Dean is the only governor to pass a law allowing a marriage-like union between people of the same sex. Is this the kind of America you want for your children?" Then the camera pan wide to show two children watching the gay couple."

Any democrat can run ads regarding the Bush pledge to donate funds to AIDS medication in Africa. And where is that money? Along side the funds for "No Child Left Behind?"

You said:

"Then they'll start showing all the clips of Dean saying unpopular, politically stupid things making them out to be worse than they really were: "Howard Dean says he knows America." Then they show the clip of Dean making the confederate flag statement. "What he doesn't seem to understand is that not all southerners think alike." Then they'll show a black business woman, a hardworking white farmer, an Asian-American chemist, etc. etc."

They could also show clips of Clark supporting the entire Bush administration. We could show ads mentioning we spent $89 billion dollars looking for WMD which never existed. We could show working families slipping into poverty, talking about just what the Bush tax cuts did for them. We could do a lot.

You said: "What will it take for the rest of the Dean supporters to wake up? Vote for Howard Dean and you'll get 4 more years of Bush, I promise you."

I really don't care anymore. If Dean, Kerry or Kucinish doesn't get the nod, I'm moving my family to Europe. I won't put up with 4 years of Bush or Bush-lite. I would include Edwards in that list, but I think he needs to season a little; I do expect him to serve as president, just not this round. If Bush or Clark win this election, this country no longer represents something I consider to be good. I'm just glad I have the option of leaving.

[jonnyblitz]

106. yeah yeah yeah...

all your blog buddies who have been sent here before you keep telling us this. we know. :eyes:

[frustrated_lefty]

108. Why should anyone vote for Dean?

You propose that a Dean candidacy guarantees a Bush victory.

I won't touch on the general public opinion of spending billions towards putting a man on the moon (again), much less putting a man on Mars.

Dean has my vote for his record. What is that record?

1) as of the year 2000, under Dean's governance, Vermont was rated 2nd best in the nation for the quality of medical care provided to Medicare beneficiaries
2) as of the year 2003, Vermont was ranked 3rd best in the nation for prescription benefits provided to Medicare beneficiaries
3) He signed into law managed care consumer protections that are among the toughest in the nation
4) He established the “Success by Six” program, in which Health care providers, social service agencies and others cooperate to connect parents with resources ranging from job training to parenting classes
5) He overhauled Vermont's traditional system of paying for public schools with local property taxes, shifting funds from rich towns to poor towns through a "sharing pool," sparking an explosion in education spending,which has been up by 40% since 1997
6) He ensured that virtually every child under 18 and more than 90 percent of adults are eligible for health coverage.
7) created the Domestic Violence Fatality Review Committee to identify strengths and weaknesses in the community response to domestic violence
8) He established initiatives which included mandatory work requirements and lifetime maximum benefits, but were balanced by their support of children and their working parents with health care, child care, and job training (more at: http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/programs/ofa/ngachn/child~36.htm)
9) He increased investment on Child Care Services by 176% since 1991
10) He instituted the first state protocol for abuse investigations. In return, Vermont saw a 45% decline in physical and sexual abuse of children. This included a 64% decline in physical abuse victims ages 0-3 and a 43% decline in physical abuse victims ages 0-6. I don't care who you are, a 64% decline in child abuse should be applauded even if you don't like the guy. This man made children safer.
11) He increased human services funding by 33%, and education funding by 25%
13) He cut the income tax twice, removed the sales tax on most clothing, and reduced the state's long-term debt.
14) He raised the state's minimum wage twice during 11 years in office.
15) He created tax incentives to attract and keep new companies.
16) He created 41,000 jobs
17) He appointed more women to positions of leadership while he was governor than any other state
18) He signed an executive order enhancing state assistance to victims of domestic violence. He also created the
Domestic Violence Fatality Review Committee to identify strengths and weaknesses in the community response to domestic violence.
challenged the term "partial birth abortion" from a medical perspective, saying that it is a "code word" for extremism.
has a mixed record on welfare reform. Vermont was the first state to implement a seven-year welfare reform demonstration project. This
project sought to move families towards self-sufficiency and away from dependence on cash assistance. Dean's initiative contained
mandatory work requirements and lifetime maximum benefits, but it also supported children and their working parents with health care,
child care, and job training. Dean is a member of the Democratic Governors Association,which promotes the next stage of welfare reform, including:helping families rise above poverty; providing access to the health insurance, transportation, and child care that eases the struggles of working as a single-parent.
19) In Vermont, virtually every child under 18 and more than 90 percent of adults are eligible for health coverage.
20) He signed the first law in the nation that would recognize civil unions between same-sex partners.
21) He signed into law agency fee protection for the state employees union, thereby providing union security for state employees.

If you don't like Dean, say so. But don't misrepresent what he's done, the man has worked his ass off to make American lives better. And I will donate every spare dollar to his campaign.

[frustrated_lefty]

112. Ginchili

You wrote:

"But it's this kind of avoidance of potentially damaging issues that will contribute to Dean's failure to secure the nomination."

I raised about 20 issues, and you refused to address even one.

Dean is willing to talk about any issue you raise. Slander him all you want, but at least be honest doing so.

Perhaps you'd be willing to address Dean's handling of domestic issues?

[ginchinchili]

118. Dean's handling of domestic issues is OT

I stated that I didn't think Dean could win and gave my reasons. If you'll read over my reasons you'll see that I never say that Dean hasn't done anything good. I never say that. I assume that if Dean got elected governor of Vermont 4 times that he must have been doing a lot of things right. I like Dean. That's not the point. I'm not going to debate you on whether or not Dean's domestic polices are effective because that's not the point. And we are probably in agreement on Dean's domestic policies. I simply stated that I don't think Dean can beat Bush and gave some of my reasons. And it's looking like most Democrats are agreeing with me.

[ginchinchili]

117. What's been misrepresented?

Show me where I misrepresented Dean's record.

[hellhathnofury]

114. My opinion on this post:

:nuke: it

[flaminbats]

116. I'm shaking in my boots...

:scared: :scared:

[BrokenSegue]

119. Question about Dean.

Why is always refered to as former governor.
Isn't he a senator? Doesn't that count for somthing?

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Robert Murphy]

121. Yikes!!

Wow Bombtrack!! You managed to to bump this puppy from last January(?!?!?) to the top of the pile. (THE POST THAT WOULDN'T DIE!!!) I didn't think DU even kept 'em that far back. ;)

Robert

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.