Clark: Talk about gays in the military, but don't open the door

[KaraokeKarlton]

Talk about gays in military, but don't open the door

Q: Would you open the door for gays to enter the military if you were president of the United States?

CLARK: No. I'd tell the military to re-look at the policy and come back and we'd talk about it.

Source: CNN, Crossfire Aug 1, 2003


http://www.policy.com/2004/Wesley_Clark_Homeland_Security.htm


What kind of president let's the military make policy of gay rights? I find this position to be really offensive and just plain wrong.

[davidinalameda]

1. Clark knows DADT doesn't work

":Ensure that everyone can serve. I believe that the military needs to rethink the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. It does not serve this country to discriminate against people who want to serve in our armed forces. I would ask the military to craft and implement a policy that ensures that everyone who wants to serve their country is permitted to do so with honor and dignity. I would ask the military to look seriously at the British policy, which prohibits sexual misconduct by both heterosexuals and homosexuals. I would then submit the new policy to Congress to replace the current "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" law. "

http://clark04.com/issues/glbt/

he knows what goes on in the military and he knows how DADT hurts the military and our country.

[KaraokeKarlton]

2. So Clark would let the military lead him rather than him lead the military

That's not very reassuring. This is yet another reason why I'm very uncomfortable with a career military man being president. Presidents don't concede to those beneath them in power. The president gives the orders and the military does as they're told.

If Clark would cede authority to the military he would be a terrible, terrible president.

[cprise]

6. But remember, if you're not military you're "weak"

</sarcasm>

[davidinalameda]

8. where does it say anything about Clark conceding power to anyone

I'm not sure where you're getting that.

Clinton's big mistake was not consulting his military advisors and was slammed for it.

You had hawks like Sam Nunn leading the charge against his president on this issue.

Clark understands that a policy needs to be worked out. Remember, most, if not all, of the NATO countries allow gays to serve openly. He has seen and can draw upon that experience.

[izzie]

22. Did Ike do this?

Just asking

[namaste]

23. I find your reason for discomfort with Clark a bit odd..

He was a General in the United States Army, and the NATO commander. A person does not achieve that status by conceding power to anyone that is beneath them in the command structure. And he is certainly a fighter...I saw him tear apart a guy on FOX news for trying to twist his words. I also saw him when he was asked about this issue, and I was left with the definite impression that he would do something to change things for gays in the military. There is absolutely nothing wrong with achieving a concensus about what is best with those who are in command if he is elected to the presidency.

[jumptheshadow]

3. Well, I don't

Because I'm convinced Dean doesn't have the credibility to do anything for gays in the military based on his weak background.

Remember how Clinton tried to change the policy in his as one of his first acts in office? Remember how A) it didn't work, and, B) it hurt him for years?

If Dean is elected president -- a huge "if" -- then he will have even less credibility than Clinton on the issue. Being a clever politician, and reckoning that gays have nowhere else to go, he will avoid the issue. Clark has far more credibility to make significant changes in the military. If, at the least, he creates uniform professional standards that are applied equally to everybody, that would be a major step forward.

Certainly, as a member of the gay community, I have no problems with fairly enforced professional standards. Never have.

And by the way, I have contributed to gay organizations for decades and have volunteered for gay organizations. Have you?

And, also by the way, where were all the Dean supporters when another Dean supporter was belittling gay relationships?

Nowhere. That's where.

[KaraokeKarlton]

4. Dean will be able to do what Clinton couldn't

He's better than Clinton at getting things done. Who else delivered civil unions for gays? Who else has made it possible for gay couples to adopt? Certainly not Clark, nor will he. Dean will.

[cprise]

5. He also accomplished full heathcare for children

Clinton couldn't (or wouldn't) do those things.

Clark is a corporations-first guy, just like Clinton.

[FubarFly]

7. Dean has as much or more credibilty than anyone else running.

Don't let the weak opposition spin diminish the magnitude of what Dean did in Vermont. Dean voluntarily signed the first civil union bill in America during an election year. He is a pioneer. He deserves credit. If there is any candidate who will stand up for something right, even though it flies in the face of public opinion, based on his actual record, that is Howard Dean. Clark however, while an independent thinker, is not a maverick. You don't become a four-star general by not following orders. Clark did not risk his career by publicly standing up for gay and lesbian issues. If you can show me proof that he did otherwise, I will be mightily impressed. IMHO, Clark's position is far more likely to be lip service than Dean's.

[Tweed]

10. Very true

Clark's lip service may be just lip service, but could Dean get his work done in the military? Dean has no idea how the inner politics of the military and the Pentagon work. Add on a Republican congress and I don't see how Dean could do something about this issue even if he wanted to.

[FubarFly]

14. If Clinton had more of a backbone,

this would not be an issue right now. The CiC has the authority to make this a reality. Dean is practical enough to weigh the all the arguments before making a decision. If there is a plausible way to accomplish civil rights in the military ,without destroying the rest of his political agenda, Dean will find it. Dean's character is actually much stronger than what he gets credit for around here.

[FubarFly]

17. Here is a thread to support my case:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=75508

[Mattforclark]

11. He did not report people

who told him that they were gay and have them kicked out of the military. I thought that is against the DADT rules, isn't it?

[davidinalameda]

12. Dean did not voluntarily sign that bill

that bill was a compromise--the VT Supeme Court was going to order the legalization of gay marriages if the civil union bill hadn't passed.

He HAD to sign that bill or Vermont would be the first state with legalized gay marriages.

He is no hero to the gay community.

[FubarFly]

15. I believe you are mistaken.

Dean actually had many options.

I'm surprised that anyone who followed the issue closely would say that.

[KaraokeKarlton]

28. You're wrong

Dean didn't have to sign the bill if he didn't want to. He did it because it was the right thing to do. He made his entire campaign about dignity, equality and respect reagrding civil unions in 2000. He went through pure hell for signing that bill. And Dean also supported giving gays the right to adopt prior to signing civil unions.

He most certainly IS a hero to the gay community.

[jumptheshadow]

16. Let's be realistic

Dean had the backbone to sign the bill but he did it behind closed doors and, apparently, after a great deal of agonizing about it. In fact, he said he wasn't comfortable with the idea of gay marriage.

And yes, Clark owns a distinguished military career, and like Nixon going to China, he would have the leverage to make real change in the military. Do I believe he would? Hell, yes, because the man has character, and his behavior on the campaign trail has reinforced the fact that he is fair.

The comparisions of Clinton's output with Dean's are pretty naive.

Clinton was head of a huge, diverse country and was hamstrung by a Republican congress. Dean was governor of a small, white, nonurban state and, by some accounts, he was more Republican than the Republicans in his legislature.

By the way, guys, I would find your posts much more credible if any of you had the decency to put your fellow Dean supporter firmly in his place when he belittled gay relationships.

None of you did. If you support the dignity of gay relationships strongly, then you will defend them on an everyday basis.

[FubarFly]

19. I don't care how he got there,

the important thing is, in the end, he did the right thing.

As far as putting my fellow Dean supporter in place?

Please. I am not a board nanny. If I put everyone "in place" who I disagreed with, I would be posting on this board 24/7.

[jumptheshadow]

20. Very telling

That you don't believe strongly enough in the dignity of gay relationships to make a decent statement when somebody from your campaign was clearly over the line.

But then you try to make political hay for Dean on gay issues.

Bought my Clark Gay Pride button yesterday and will wear it proudly.

http://www.demstore.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/scstore/Clark/buttons.html?L+scstore+txzd4825ff2f962f+1074177217

I assume you are wearing your Dean Gay Pride button.

[FubarFly]

21. I am not going to try to tear down your straw man.

Nothing in your post changes my central point.

[jumptheshadow]

27. And my central point

Is that Wesley Clark is in a much better strategic position to deliver real change for gay people in the military than Howard Dean ever will be.

My other central point is that if you want gay votes you better damn well be there for gay people on a day-to-day basis.

[Cheswick2.0]

24. Myth

It is a myth that Dean was forced to sign the bill or did it behind closed doors.

[KaraokeKarlton]

31. He did sign it privately, but for a good reason

the state was bitterly divided as it was, and a ceremony would have prolonged that and allowed a "victory dance" that would have been VERY inappropriate for the state. Healing was the immediate need and best interest of the state, so Dean didn't do the pomp and circumstance when signing the bill.

[KaraokeKarlton]

30. He did it behind closed doors because the state was bitterly divided

He didn't want to pour salt into the wounds of the state with pomp and circumstance. He wanted to help set the tone for the state to heal. This was an UGLY, UGLY fight, and Dean did the right thing by refusing to sign it publicly in a ceremony.

[jdawgg182]

9. Clark has consistenly said that "don't ask" isn't good enough

Wesley Clark supports a model like Great Britain has, that open homosexuals can serve in the military but they can't do it on base. I believe it's sometimes labeled "Don't ask, don't misbehave."

He has also made the case, and can effectively make the case to independents and conservatives, that openly gay soldiers will not disrupt unit cohesion because openly gay soldiers in NATO militaries, such as France and England, did not collide with US forces.

[POed_Ex_Repub]

13. Welcome to DU jdawgg182

:hi:

[jumptheshadow]

18. Welcome to DU

Thank you for making the points so well.

[Cheswick2.0]

25. yup, he wants "don't ask don't misbehave"

That means we won't ask as long as you don't have sex with actual people. It sounds rather like the Fallwell position of saying you can be a homosexual as long as you don't have sex with anyone.

[jumptheshadow]

26. He wants professional standards and equal treatment for everyone

I can live with that. I've never had a problem with that.

And where were the Dean supporters when other Dean supporters were belittling gay relationships?

Nowhere. That's where. I am truly offended.

Dean supporters should not pull this opportunistic B.S. if they aren't willing to support and defend gay people on a day to day basis.

[Jerseycoa]

29. Homosexual AND Heterosexual

Get it, uh, straight!