Obama on a college textbook “racket”

[babylonsister]

http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/02/obama_on_a_college_textbook_ra.html

Obama on a college textbook “racket”

by Mike Dorning

EDINBURG, Tex—It’s an old gripe of college students all over the country: professors who assign expensive textbooks that those very same professors just happened to have authored.

Count Barack Obama, who once taught classes at the University of Chicago Law School, among those who sees a conflict of interest in professors who assign mandatory reading and then receive royalties when students purchase the books.

Unbidden, Obama veered onto the topic as he was finishing a roundtable on college affordability today with students at the University of Texas-Pan American, a state school near the Mexican border with a student body that includes many Latinos from financially struggling families.

Noting the enormous cost of textbooks, Obama called the practice "a big scam.”

"Books are a big scam," Obama said. "I taught law at the University of Chicago for 10 years, and one of the biggest scams is law professors write their own text books and then assign it to their students."

“They make a mint. It’s a huge racket,” he added.

Still, the presidential candidate did not propose any government policy changes to address the issue.

[TheWraith]

1. He's right on, it's absolutely apalling.

Not to mention the prices on some of these textbooks, which run to hundreds of dollars, and attempts now by the publishers to ban resale of the books. It's disgusting, and there's no justification for it other than trying to milk money out of students who literally have no options other than to pay up or drop the class.

[ananda]

2. Huh?

"Still, the presidential candidate did not propose any government policy changes to address the issue."

The politics of the empty suit... with lots of "hope" of course.

[babylonsister]

5. I think at the moment he might have higher priorities; it's good to know

he's aware of what's going on. Nice try though.

[Redstone]

7. Yes. I'm not taking ANY sides here, but I agree with you that it's a good thing for him

to at least be aware of an issue such as this; one that may not draw national attention, but does affect quite a few
Americans.

Can you possibly imagine bushyboy being even SLIGHTLY aware of something like that? Or, if being told about it, remembering it for more than a millisecond?

Redstone

[LiberalFighter]

30. Did bush even bother to buy any of the books back then? He was a legacy

Legacies don't need to take any classes.
:sarcasm:

[yellowcanine]

6. Oh wow. That is really unfair. He points out a problem when discussing college affordability with

students and he is supposed to have a 5 point plan to address the issue ready to whip out? Get real. The fact that he is aware of it as a presidential candidate when most would not be ought to be - and is - good enough for now. Furthermore it is the kind of thing that is probably best solved not with a government program but with a frank discussion with university presidents using the "bully pulpit" of the Presidency - which you will note he can't do as a candidate.

[Redstone]

8. Yes. You've answered a "drive-by post" with a real discussion. I admire that.

(And, given the current atmosphere at DU, I feel compelled to reassure you that I was NOT being sarcastic there.)

Redstone

[Aviation Pro]

3. Again, Senator Obama,....

...pointing out the problem is great, but we are all aware of it. Now, what's your solution?

[yellowcanine]

10. See above. Your demand for a "solution" is addressed I believe.

It is kind of idiotic to expect Obama to have a solution for every problem he points out. Would you really want a candidate to have a 5-point plan for EVERYTHING? Be honest, now.

[roguevalley]

15. If someone brought up the problem with poop in parks from people

walking them, do the candidates have to have a solution to that too? Honestly, we all need to relax.

[HereSince1628]

4. I've 175 credit hours earned. I saw one book authored by an instructor

A graduate course in Systems Analysis and Simulation in Wildlife Biology. The prof sold it at cost.

I've taught as a faculty member at college and university level since 1988 and I've never seen a textbook authored by a colleague.

I have seen an introductory textbook on the market that was co-authered by a colleague. Our freshman program didn't choose his book.


If it's a common scam, I'm pleased it's outside my experience.

[yellowcanine]

9. I have seen it. Not often, though. It may be more prevalent in Law Schools.

I also believe that some universities have policies that prohibit it so that may be the reason it is not more common. Actually, though, just because a book is sold "at cost" doesn't mean the author isn't making money off of it. "Cost" could include an author royalty from the publisher.

[HereSince1628]

13. My experience is that royalties aren't paid until the first printing is sold

I've authored a natural history text (long ago) and an ecology lab manual (1999) myself. I just finished helping the SO finish the corrections on her second book.

The minumum sales before royalties for any of these was 1000 copies. Considering our classes in the related subjects have 20-30 students you get the picture. It'd take the rest of our careers to get royalties based on our using our books in our own courses.

I wouldn't think it ethical to require a book and accept a royalty check. But I think people have no idea how limited the sales of most academic books really are. I've never seen a royalty check. I was grateful to just get a line for my "vitae"

[IntravenousDemilo]

11. Sometimes the scam is compounded...

There are occasions where the prof and publisher in question will make a few very minor changes in the text -- teensy updates that don't affect the over-all substance of the book -- just so they can insist that you buy the REVISED edition at a grossly inflated price, rather than get a second-hand one from a student who's finished with it. And sometimes they'll change the cover, so the prof will see immediately whether you have the new one or the old one.

[Sanity Claws]

12. University of Phoenix selects texts on kickbacks

I taught there one semester and UP assigned this awful text. I couldn't figure out why they assigned the text until I found out they had a deal with the publisher.
Biggest rip off imaginable.

[Hissyspit]

29. Well, that's the U of P. No surprise there. But you see the scandal didn't originate

with the professor.

[laconicsax]

14. Of course professors will assign their own textbooks.

Why would any college professor not assign their own textbooks?

There are two real college textbook scams perpetrated by the publishers. The first is price gouging, the second is perpetually releasing new editions. The first one is self-explanatory. The second goes like this. Publishers saw that they could make more money if the used textbook market didn't exist, and the best way to shut it down is to release an (overpriced) new edition every year.

-Publisher releases a new edition virtually identical to the old edition and stops printing/selling the old edition. New edition is the only game in town.
-Professors are forced to assign the new edition, since the old edition is technically no longer available.
-Bookstores have to buy the new edition because it's what's being assigned and they won't buy back any copies of the old edition.
-Students are then forced to shell out lots of money for new books since there are no used copies available.

Related reading:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30151-2004Sep17.html
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050202/news_1m2textbooks.html
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE3DC1E3EF932A15753C1A9659C8B63

Edit: 2nd Edition same as the first
Edit: 3rd Edition (can you spot the difference)

[girl gone mad]

22. Just wait until the new scam takes hold.

E-textbooks that are one-time use. Publishers are pushing for this. They'd love to drive another nail into the coffin of the secondary market.

I could bore you with other Publisher related scams and immoral practices, but this is the most dangerous one facing future college students. Imagine paying hundreds for a textbook that you can never sell, and having your access to most of the information in the book expire after just one or two years.

[flyarm]

16. and to think there are real people who can't take their kids to the doctor today..

or that need life saving surgery they can't get...

.so yes indeed lets discuss something life shattering..like.college kids books.
good god..

fly

[babylonsister]

21. Get a grip; he was talking to college kids. See post #28;

lots of issues were discussed.

[WildEyedLiberal]

23. Most college students aren't rich, and pay for their books out of pocket

It IS a big issue when an unemployed student has to cough up upwards of a thousand bucks a year for textbooks that should, in reality, cost less than half that. College kids aren't all Ivy League trust fund kids who have mommy and daddy to buy them everything they ever wanted. I'm glad Obama is bringing this up, because it IS a scam.

[Hissyspit]

26. Textbook prices are a problem, but professors assigning their own isn't, really.

If a professor were to assign a different book of their own, there probably wouldn't be much of a difference in price for the students. If the professor is assigning their book in ADDITION to another textbook, then the issue becomes how much that textbook is necessary for the particular class and their IS oversight from department heads and other professors on this issue and it is somewhat uninformed to automatically assume that professors can get away with whatever they want.

Professors, of course, do have a say as well in HOW MANY textbooks a class should have and how much outside, additional material should be assigned. The truth of the matter is that, because higher education is valuable, it costs a lot of money. This does not mean that students can't have a say in speaking up on the cost of a course, and it does not mean that professors can make students necessarily spend astronomical amounts, but the concept that there is some kind of scam going on is overblown.

[Hissyspit]

17. Of course professors assign their own textbooks. It's called academic freedom.

Speaking as a college professor, if you are an expert in a particular field and put all your expertise into a textbook, one that contains information that can't be found anywhere else, you would be doing a disservice to your students NOT to assign that book. Is there going to be a bias with the professor on what constitutes expert information - well, yeah.

As a previous poster has noted, the scams usually orginate with the booksellers and the editions, but new editions ARE important in many disciplines. In many disciplines, information and theory can change year-to-year. I agree that textbook prices are a REAL concern (I have two paperback texts assigned for my current digital arts appreciation class totalling about $25 - last year I assigned them a textbook by FELLOW faculty members that was a bit more expensive. We used it, but I dropped it this semester because I didn't make use of it as much as I anticipated; Quel scandale!), and you could make an argument that a professor is assigning an inappropriate text for a particular class, but the head of the department would probably catch on to that and say something, and, frankly, I've never seen it happen. Sorry. Academic freedom trumps any perceived sense of conflict of interest here.

Besides, how much money am I going to make selling my book to a class of, say, 30 students?

This is silly and overblown in my opinion.

[crimsonblue]

18. I couldn't disagree with Barack more.

I think it is entirely appropriate for professors to assign their books, in most cases. Think abt it this way: professors that do this almost always have a PhD, and that means they spent years focusing and studying the subjects that they write about. Also, this becomes much less of a problem as classes get more specialized in your major. When you are taking a class in a specialized subject area, it would make sense to me to use the book that the teacher wrote.. But maybe that's just me.

[txaslftist]

20. Plus you can make a lot of quick cash from your captive audience!

Awesome deal, and a good way to supplement your profesorial income.

[Hissyspit]

24. Way to insult my fellow professionals.

They're all in it for quick cash.

:eyes:

Actually, you will find they are more concerned with their professional repution, but as a college professor and as someone who knows college professors, and knows the sometimes petty issues we get involved in and have to deal with, your characterization is naive.

[txaslftist]

25. As a former law school student I've been required to buy "books"

... which were really just 3-hole punched 800 page collections of photocopied cases prepared by my professors. They ran about $60 a pop.

Someone was making a killing.

[Hissyspit]

27. Paper companies? Kinkos? The tree harveting industry?

Not automatically the professors, maybe?

I am a former student, too, as well. As are all the other professors.

[txaslftist]

19. I'm glad he sees the issue.

I'm also glad he doesn't propose some sort of "Federal Solution".

We need the federal government involved in the prices and practices of university textbook sales? How about a federal agent to monitor how you wipe your behind?

[babylonsister]

28. On the Road: Along the Rio Grande, Students Struggle to Surmount Poverty

On the Road: Along the Rio Grande, Students Struggle to Surmount Poverty

By Michael Powell
On The Road - The Caucus - Politics - New York Times Blog


A salutary aspect of life on the campaign trail, even in the bubble that is a candidate’s lot, is that one is reminded from time to time of the prosaic, not to mention heart-breaking, struggle of so many to escape poverty’s grasp.

So the Barack Obama campaign rolled into the flat emerald eastern edge of the Rio Grande Valley, which is the heart of Clinton country and, by the by, one of the poorer places in the United States. Here in this humid land, amid palm groves and orange trees, an overwhelmingly – about 90 percent – Latino population lives perched on precarious economic ledge. The median family income is about $31,000 and one-third of the residents have no health insurance.

The morning event was at the University of Texas-Pan American and one hastens to add that it was “staged,” in that the candidate wanted to televise his empathy for the plight of these students and to draw attention to his proposal for a big tuition tax credit in exchange for community service. Both Mr. Obama and Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton have hit these themes as they traverse this valley where so many are so destitute.

But there was little staged about the students’ passion and their tales. Shy and halting at first, they recounted their struggles to pay for books and classes, even as they tried to keep food in the mouths of their children and help out a younger sister or ailing parent.

These were so-called high aspirational students: In a county where 30 percent fail to complete ninth grade, they spoke of applying to medical school, of wanting to become teachers and social workers. They sit on the floor of that chasm between those truly poor who qualify for some aid and those whose family can afford to pay the freight. Many spoke of the tension between declaring themselves financially independent — which makes them eligible for more financial aid — and their culture, which places great emphasis on living at home and helping to raise their younger sisters and brothers.

At a time when a house price crash has turned off the ATM that was home equity credit, these students told of turning to credit cards to finance education, and running up tabs in the tens of thousands of dollars, with interest rates that started at 11 percent, climbed to 18 percent, and then nosed north of 25 percent.

more...

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/22/on-the-road-along-the-rio-grande-students-struggle-to-surmount-poverty/

[Cobalt-60]

31. It can be a racket

Chem 101, text by the department head , was badly written, expensive, and so heavily revised that you couldn't employ a used one from even 1 semester before.
The Professor was a brilliant chemist. But he sucked canal water as a textbook author. I don't mention his name to spare him the embarrassment.
on the other hand,
EE 229, text by Professor N. Narayama Rao, was clearly and brilliantly written. He also taught the course. I've cherished that book since 1983. On occasion I still seek answers within it.
Ok all you hard core techies, for extra credit - Where was I an undergrad?
And for extra extra credit- what was NOT my major?