Drift away from Clinton frustrates many women: Some feel old wounds

[DeepModem Mom]

LAT: Drift away from Clinton frustrates many women
As they see her chances slipping, some feel old wounds: An older, more experienced woman is pushed aside to make way for a younger male colleague.
By Robin Abcarian, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
March 2, 2008

...."They're running to the rock star, to the momentum, to the excitement," said (Darlene) Ewing, a family law attorney who chairs the Dallas County Democratic Party. "And I am worried that if Hillary doesn't get elected, I am never going to see a woman president in my lifetime. I do think her chances are slipping away, and it (ticks) me off."

This sentiment is being expressed around the country -- in testy dinner-party conversations, around the water cooler, and in the public forum. As Clinton's shot at the nomination boils down to two contests Tuesday -- in the delegate-rich states of Texas and Ohio, where she is running neck and neck with Obama -- many women who support the New York senator are angered and saddened by their sisters' desertion to the other side. Old-school feminists have lined up against each other. Some chapters of the National Organization for Women are supporting Clinton; others are for Obama. There have been arguments about which candidate is more pro-choice. For some women, the rise of Obama rips open a persistent wound: an older, more experienced woman is pushed aside for a younger male colleague.

One of the most impassioned cris de coeur came from feminist poet and novelist Robin Morgan, 67, in an essay that became something of a cyberspace sensation after she posted it last month on the Women's Media Center website (and it was forwarded by many people, including Chelsea Clinton). Morgan decried the casual acceptance of sexism on the campaign trail this season -- from the two young men who shouted "Iron my shirt!" at Clinton to the Hillary-themed nutcrackers available in airport gift shops. But Morgan reserved her greatest ire for women who decline to support Clinton "while wringing their hands because Hillary isn't as likable as they've been warned they must be. . . . Grow the hell up. She is not running for Ms. Perfect-pure-queen-icon of the feminist movement. She's running to be president of the United States."

Recent polls support the suspicion of many women that theirs is a gender divided. Last week's Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg poll found Clinton's solid support from women to be dwindling. Women are now evenly divided between the two Democratic candidates, though Clinton still enjoys a sizable advantage among women 65 and older, who prefer her three-to-one over Obama.

Gloria Steinem, a Clinton supporter, weighed in with an essay in the New York Times in which she claimed that, in public and private spheres alike, women have a tougher time than African American men. "Gender," wrote Steinem, "is probably the most restricting force in American life, whether the question is who must be in the kitchen or who could be in the White House. . . . Black men were given the vote a half-century before women of any race were allowed to mark a ballot and generally have ascended to positions of power . . . before any women."...

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-feminists2mar02,0,4892434.story

[lligrd]

1. Clinton Frustrates Many Women

with her voting record and her dirty politics. She is no longer a woman I can defend or admire.

[juajen]

9. Wait until Obama has been vetted as much as Clinton.

You're tune will be different. I am ashamed of women who use red herrings to justify their defection to Glitterbama.

[lligrd]

39. So You Believe In Guilty Until Proven Innocent?

I'll take my chances with the unproven as opposed to the proven wrong.

[Xipe Totec]

2. I am a Clintonista

Until she concedes, I am her supporter.

Nothing against Obama. I just owe the Clintons a lot.

If she says she will back Obama, then I will back Obama.

[TheDebbieDee]

12. You know, Xipe, I feel the same way.......

I love the Clintons and I feel as though I owe them, too.

As much as I complain about Obama's empty "feel good", self-help, speeches, it's amazing for me to remember that I felt the same when I listened to Bill Clinton's speeches during the '92 campaign.

Bill Clinton was my "Hope" President.

[Xipe Totec]

29. Before Clinton, you couldn't change jobs

If you had a child with a medical condition, there was a 1 year waiting period before coverage with a new company's insurance carrier would kick in.

I stayed in an intellectual desert in Houston for 15 years because I had a child with asthma and ADD, and I could not afford to change jobs.

The Clintons changed that, making it possible for me to move my family to Boston, a Mecca of high tech.

I won't ever forget that.

[TheDebbieDee]

42. Same here.......I was able to get raises specifically by

changing jobs.

Ah, the good old days!

[DJ13]

3. Im seeing a lot more Feminist articles trying to help Hillary heading into Tuesday

Im not sure this constant whining will help Hillary with the rest of the Democratic base.

[DeepModem Mom]

4. My posting usually reflects what's in the press each day, and I've posted...

at least three major articles today on the issue of gender re. Hillary's bid for the nomination.

[DJ13]

6. "I've posted at least three major articles today on the issue of gender re. Hillary"

I believe I've read all three of your posts as well!
:)

The gender issue seems to be the last stand left for Hillary.

Probably hoping for another NH situation to save her.

[juajen]

13. How shocking that she's not willing to lay it all down, but, is

still trying to win. Some might admire that perseverance, but I guess we won't see that on this board.

[juajen]

11. Is whining ever used to describe a man? What is that action

called when a man does it? Uh, let me see, maybe "dissent" or "disagree"? Boy, I am shocked at the sexism I have been seeing on DU.

[aquart]

32. Yes, they are using it on Bill for supporting Hillary.

See, he's the wussy wife now.

[aquart]

31. "WHINING"??????

Sexist much?

And this is what we can expect from Obama and his "movement."

[NC_Nurse]

5. I really don't believe that she's losing because she's a woman.

Her campaign has been uneven. Her speeches fine, but not remarkable.
Lately, she has really gone negative and changed her message and persona
at every appearance.

I think she just got caught unprepared for an opponent who was as charismatic as Barack.
Attacking him for being a lightweight has not worked because he is every bit as intelligent as she is
and has a steep learning curve. Being a community organizer has helped him beat her in every state
just in the organization of his ground game.

If he wasn't in the race. She's be the nom, I'm sure of it.

[juajen]

16. Unfortunately, charisa gave us Ronald Reagan, and George W., who everybody

wanted to have a beer with. God, this is not a popularity contest, and the glitterbabies are in for a rude awakening. Also, community organizing does not a President make. He even admitted that he needed someone else to keep him straight. You think, maybe, someone or some organization has been steering him into place the past 15 years?

[NC_Nurse]

22. I don't think it's just about "glitterbabies" and popularity. He repeatedly

states positions that are not that far away from Hillary's. There are a lot of
things about community organizing that DO translate to the presidency, and
it's definitely made his campaign much better than hers. A president who can
motivate the PUBLIC to get behind their agenda can get things done that would
otherwise end up in Congressional gridlock.

Ronald Reagan was able to do it, Dubya not so much. Remember SS privatization?
Immigration reform? He was not able to sell his ideas (mostly because they sucked).

Being able to inspire people to get involved is a big part of any progressive agenda.

[hlthe2b]

19. Yes, I agree. But, part of me shares the emotional sentiment

expressed by the article. I think on balance Hillary has simply been "beat" by a very worthy (and often superior) opponent. But, there has been tremendous sexism and misogyny that has played out on the part of many who have no excuse. Seeing this has left me very conflicted, despite my support and caucus vote for Obama.

Many women of my age have similarly dealt with this kind of sexism and bias in their lifetimes. So, to move away from Hillary is painful--in more ways than one.

[NC_Nurse]

24. I think you are right. There has been a lot of sexism in this race, as well as

racism. Neither one is good for this country, but neither group holds the "biggest victim"
title and that's not the way to win support.

I think that the victim card may be valid, but it's not productive.

[aquart]

33. You might want to think about how come he's in the race.

A first-term senator. You might want to ask if he'd be there if he were, say, a woman. Or half-Chinese instead of Kenyan.

You might want to look at what you've accepted as a given.

[NC_Nurse]

45. Booga-booga!

I think he's risen quickly at least in part because of his excellent oratory. I heard him speak at the 2004 convention and was VERY impressed.
Best speech of the night.

[earthside]

7. Offensive Steinem

I find the last paragraph in the original post quoting the LA Times article particularly disturbing.

It is tragic to see a human rights pioneer like Gloria Steinem playing political games with race and gender for the advantage of HER chosen candidate.

Slavery and Jim Crow and segregation are not obviated because, on paper, "black men were given the vote a half-century before women."

If Clinton(s) loses on Tuesday, it will be in part because of that kind of tortured rationalization for playing the gender card.

[NC_Nurse]

27. That really bothered me too. How can anyone say that women have it worse

than Black men? That is so subjective and issue-dependent. And sad.
Sounds like "we're bigger victims so we should win". NOT very appealing.

[aquart]

46. And now we know why some women will vote for Obama.

Because they don't know how to do anything but subordinate their own needs to those of a man. The man must always come first.

[NC_Nurse]

48. If I thought like that I'd vote for Huckabee.

He likes them submissive women. ;-)

[lapfog_1]

8. Can't we get beyond gender and race?

I will gladly vote for a woman for any office, if I like her policies and her judgment. I will gladly vote for a man for the same reasons. And for a Black, White, Latino, Asian, or Other for the same reasons. I wonder why it is "expected" that those who share gender/race/or any other uncontrollable attribute to support and vote for "one of their own". Women should support other women. Why? Black people supporting black candidates. Why? Who should you support if you are a black woman? Why? Why can't you support an Asian Male? or a Latino Female? or anyone you choose based on their policies, records, and judgment.

I almost wish that we could have announced candidates X, Y, and Z. And know nothing about their race or gender. Only information provided is about their records, policies, and their own statements.

And then we choose who we like. A few of us might be surprised at who we pick.

[stellanoir]

10. I wish they'd get off this "never see a woman President in my lifetime" meme.

That eventuality would be predicated by Hillary being the only qualified female in the whole country.

Perhaps Clinton fatigue is vastly underestimated.

The tone of her campaign has turned off many.

I keep posting this as I'm continually being reminded of how Queen Elizabeth the first's ruler ship was enhanced by her discernment in most of her stellar advisors.

Mary Queen of Scots was surrounded by power mongering, disingenuous, duplicitous, and thuggish advisors.

It cost Mary her head.

Just saying,

:hi:

[DeepModem Mom]

Guess we can all be glad we got past that head thing!

:)

[stellanoir]

23. I always got a kick out of the line from "The Queen of Hearts" where she

huffily and commandingly said "Either you or your head must be off at once" as if she haughtily cared not which occurred.

Yikes,

But seriously, when the beheadings started happening in Afghanistan and Iraq, I couldn't believe that sort of barbarism was still present in these times.

Although I loathe capital punishment in all forms.

Wish there were more reincarnationalists around and we could leave these matters up to "the Cosmic Parole Board" to sort things out.

Justice is a travesty in most systems.

Except for this one at least.

http://bravenewfilms.org/blog/19529-michael-moore-cut-this-scene-from-sicko-because-no-one-would-believe-it

This is really disturbing though.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2729853

best anyhoo

[hlthe2b]

20. There are many many qualified women, but few POSITIONED

to competitively run. THAT IS THE POINT.

I voted and support Obama, but I too worry that we will not see a woman president in my lifetime. And, the country NEEDS to get past this barrier for multiple reasons.

[stellanoir]

26. I've always seen her position as both an advantage and a liability.

It's just a mixed bag.

People may just be craving something different than old intractable divisiveness and partisanship.

[juajen]

36. Thanks for this post. You are so right,

Being monetarily and politically positioned is difficult for anyone, but especially for a woman.

Because she was a popular First Lady and is a popular New York Senator, and one of the top respected women of the world, she could draw crowds and money at fund raisers for the party, which she did endlessly. She is the number one fund raiser for our party because of that popularity, but also because she was willing to give speech after speech, shake hands and give autographs until her hands were raw.

So, because of her hard work, she started this race with the backing of a lot of powerful people. How many other women have this unbelievable beginning to an election? Not even Oprah could be elected to the Presidency. Because of rampant sexism a woman needs this head start. It's sad to believe that, though she was assassinated, Pakistan is ahead of the US in this regard, as is most of the industrialized world.

I hope that many will re-think their position and will vote for this valiant American woman. This is history in the making people, and our hearts should be telling us who deserves this nomination. Picture what the History books will say about this election and why the first viable female candidate was not elected.

[Staph]

14. This article really struck home for me.

"They're running to the rock star, to the momentum, to the excitement," said (Darlene) Ewing, a family law attorney who chairs the Dallas County Democratic Party. "And I am worried that if Hillary doesn't get elected, I am never going to see a woman president in my lifetime. I do think her chances are slipping away, and it (ticks) me off."

A few weeks ago I was watching something or other on television (probably Hardball), when I realized that Hillary was not going to win. My primary is not until May. I haven't made up my mind yet. But that realization made me burst into tears.

This country's attitude towards women means that Hillary's loss in the primary election will translate to "women just can't win the big one". "Woman don't belong in the Oval Office." "Stay home and iron my shirt!"

I'm 54 years old. I come from long-lived stock. I'm good for another 40 years or so. There won't be another serious female candidate, another woman with a ghost of a chance at the White House, in my lifetime. The thought chills my soul.

[housewolf]

21. Is Hillary the ONLY woman who could ever be elected president?

"I'm 54 years old. I come from long-lived stock. I'm good for another 40 years or so. There won't be another serious female candidate, another woman with a ghost of a chance at the White House, in my lifetime. The thought chills my soul."

Then don't think that! You don't NEED to think that. That's defeatist-type of thinking that there's no evidence for.

I'm a couple years older than you and, like you, I'd love to see a woman president. But the fact that the first one out doesn't make it doesn't mean that it won't happen during our lifetime. Maybe the next time. Maybe the time after. The day WILL come when a woman is elected President of the United States. But, somewhat like picking a mate, we women don't always commit to the first one we're serious about.

Don't give up on women yet! Honor the fact that a woman has come so far, she may YET win it but even if she doesn't, we as women have burst through a barrier and have made great strides - and so has our country as whole. We Dems have had a great slate of candidates this year and we've all won through this process.

[juajen]

37. But, she was not the first one out. The others stood no chance,

though they were all good and qualified candidates. Hillary was our best chance and many of us know that. Let's hope it's not too late.

[housewolf]

44. Clarification - she's the first VIABLE woman presidential candidate

She's the first one who's had a chance at the job but no, she's not the first one to run. My sister voted for Shirley Chisolm way back in the 60's and we had an African-American woman running just the last election.

If your ONLY criteria this year is that a woman be elected, they Hillary Clinton is your only choice THIS YEAR. But that doesn't mean that she will be the only viable woman candidate in your lifetime.

The odds are very good that before long, another woman will come on the scene who taps naturally into the positive feelings that people have towards the powerful and influential women in their lives. This woman will be able to call forth the support of a majority of voters who will defend her when she's attacted and who will be honored to allow her to be their leader. She'll be able to call people to unify and bring out the best of their natures. She'll have the wind at her back, propelling her forward rather than being required to fight uphill against the wind.

I look forward to that day.

But it's not this year. And that woman's name is not Hillary Clinton, sorry to say. But she'll have Hillary as a trail-blazer, a pioneer woman who has forged a new way for others yet to come. And that, in itself, is holy and sacred work to contribute.

'Course, that's all just my opinion.

[DeepModem Mom]

25. Thanks for your heartfelt post, Staph. I hear ya.

I support Obama, but I cannot find it anywhere in my heart to villify Clinton, or even on some deep and buried level, to root against her, especially in the face of attacks and unfair treatment by the press. I am in awe of her strength, and her never giving up.

My support for Obama stems from usual political reasons, that might come in any campaign, for any candidate, especially one as gifted and blessed with vision and perhaps chosen by destiny as I believe he is. But for the first time ever, a woman, this strong woman, has had a chance at the "ultimate glass ceiling," and in my heart and as a woman, I've travelled this campaign's difficult road with her, wishing her Godspeed.

[juajen]

40. Do you have daughters? I have three, all eminently qualified mentally

to aspire to be president, but probably won't; especially if Hillary's candidacy goes down the tubes. If she doesn't get this nomination, I do not believe she will ever run again. Consider everything said about her age, and the fact that she will be even older. I know the outcome of that, and so do you. Qualified women will see what happened to this enormously brilliant and qualified woman and will give up before they even start. This is why it is so important that women support this great lady of our country. This type of superfine candidate comes along rarely, and even more rarely is she a woman.

[DeepModem Mom]

43. How did you guess? I do have daughters. nt

[housewolf]

15. The idea that any woman "owes" her support to Hillary just because H is a woman

is inane. The whole point of the feminist movement was to give people (men AND women) CHOICE - to be able to make choices that are right for the individual, based on who they are and what they believe is right for them - not to be bound to ANY sort of gender restricitions or limitations.

The idea that there will "never" be another woman who is a viable presidental candidate is equally inane. I think this

"Granted, Hillary entered the game confronting some intrinsic challenges. One is that she's a woman. There are those who would argue that this creates an unfair and impossible obstacle for her. How can any woman display the toughness that makes a credible Commander in Chief without also being pegged as an abrasive shrew?

Before long, a woman will come along who is equipped to use her gender as a point of strength. A woman who taps naturally into all the positive feelings people have towards the powerful and influential women in their lives. Voters will defend this woman when she's attacked as if their own sister were under assault. And they will bend to her will to avoid disappointing her, out of an almost holy respect, as they do for their mothers. Such a woman will come along, but it appears her name will not be Hillary Clinton. "
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/03/hillarys-cards-obamas-deal.php

is a more likely scenario.


Women today have a life-expectancy into their 80's. Women in their 50's and 60's, as well as younger women, will very likely see a womman president in their lifetime. Hilly is the first viable woman president. That does NOT make her the ONLY one who will ever be electable.

I would love to see a woman president. I think it would change the country in many positive ways. But I want to elect the RIGHT woman as president, not necessarily the first one who comes along. I just don't think we're that desperate that we need to rush forward with the first.

[juajen]

34. Red Herring Alert!.

As I said earlier in this thread, wait until the magic dust falls off. Hillary Clinton is our best candidate in this election cycle. The fact that she is a woman is keeping her numbers down because she has to deal with sexism from men and envy from women, who, as we all know, can be real b****es, and have been known to vote against their own best interests; consider the difficulty in passing the ERA when women outnumber men in this country.

We have had women candidates for the nomination before, some darn good ones; however, you all know how they fared. Hillary has a real chance, and it is not too late for women to realize their best interests lie in electing a women to lead this country. Women lead their families, even in evangelical circles, for the most part. This is not something to brag about, it just is. I see who leads in all of my friends and relatives families. The females lead the way, because they almost always have the entire family's interests at heart, perhaps because of the famous maternal instinct. Where in hell would we be without that amazing gift, which perpetuates our species,. and gentles our gender opposites?

I beg all of you, male and female, to reconsider your vote for Obama. He is truly a paper tiger.

[Mme. Defarge]

17. Last week on Jim Leher Newshour

Hillary made an all-out appeal to women across the country to vote for her because she is a woman. That's playing the gender card with no apologies.

[juajen]

38. So fucking what? How many times in the last two hundred years

have women been given any choice except to vote for men, everywhere we turn, even for local elections. Yes, we have made some progress. We have some female senators and governors and representatives at the state and national level. But count on your hands the number of times women have had a choice in who they voted for, as far as gender is concerned, especially at the presidential level

Good for Hillary. Women need to wake up! How many of you have your speeches all ready to give to your daughters and nieces, when they ask you why there has never been a female president, and when they ask if you voted for Hillary. Young girls all over this country are looking to her as their inspiration and hope. Over half of the population in this country is female and we have never had a female president. This is shocking for a country that espouses democracy.

[Yael]

18. They chose to run the wrong one.

[aquart]

28. Yuh think?

And yeah, it takes me right back to high school...where I was told my work was "very good for a girl."

I don't buy ANY excuse from any woman who votes for Obama. I just don't. You will get the government you deserve.

[juajen]

41. Amen to that, I say again, AMEN!

[ebdarcy]

30. I am a feminist who voted for Obama.

I find it kind of upsetting that the women in this article think it's okay to question someone's feminist street cred because they choose not to vote for Hillary. I have always liked and respected Hillary, and I always felt that she got a raw deal from the press and the right wing nutters. But that is not a reason to vote for her. And her gender is not a reason to vote for her either. I chose the person who I believe to be the better candidate. Voting for Obama is not an act of desertion. We have two good candidates, and I just don't understand why we can't respect each other's choices.

[aquart]

47. Because, when faced with "TWO GOOD CANDIDATES"....

"Feminist" you chose the man.

[ebdarcy]

49. I chose the person I thought was a better candidate.

Why did you put the word feminist in quotes? I am a feminist and you have no right to judge me or call me out on it. They are both good candidates, and I chose the person who I believe to be the better candidate. Gender did not enter into the equation.

[ConcernedCanuk]

35. I just hope neither candidate alienates the other - Y'all could use them both

.
.
.

In the next admin.

Your politics in the US is almost DESIGNED to cause in-fighting among PEOPLE ON THE SAME SIDE!!

Our politicians argue with each other up here, too:

But it's the Liberals against the Conservatives against the Greens against the Blok and so on

Anyhoo - Think about it

Barack, or anyone for that matter will be better than Bush

Hillary, with her experience would make a good SOS

Edwards, take your pick, VP or AG - well President for that matter, but that does not seem to be in the works.

Kerry could fit in there somewhere quite well, but seeing as he did not run, I think he is a wee bit disillusioned with the electorate, and will fight for the end of some wars in his own way.

I hope the Dem's don't destroy their best candidates through in-fighting.

Then the PNACers will win, maybe that's what they want, let the Dems fight among themselves.

Who knows, maybe it was even a PNACer that put the Obama/NAFTA bug in the Canadian Government's ear . . .

Wouldn't put it past them.

Bottom line - hope the Democratic Delegates don't make this a mud-slinging election come November

Cuz then they will lose.