Try to tell this liberal that Dean is it.

[hrhjustin]

I think that Dean might lead us to an 72' and 84' loss. Tell me why I am wrong. I am leaning towards Kerry. If Biden or Clark join I might be interested in them.

[JohnKleeb]

1. I am not for Dean but I think his more moderate side could appeal to peopl

like he opposes gun control which I support. I am not Dean's biggest fan, I dont think he could be McGovernized though,

[janx]

32. Dean does not oppose gun control. He wants to leave existing

federal regulations in place and leave the rest up to the states.

[JohnKleeb]

62. my bad sorry

[janx]

65. There's no need to apologize--

but I wanted you to know that. Rumors fly these days, no? About all of the candidates.

[SyracuseDemocrat]

69. nod

n/t.

[kwolf68]

85. Thats a cop OUT

Dean believes gun control should be an issue left to the states, but has NO interest in doing anything about the present gun laws...Gun laws that presumably would NOT have been signed by a President (LMAO) Dean.

If Dean believes federal gun laws presently on the books are "working" or "good" and he would not "oppose" them, then he isn't philisophically OPPOSED to federal gun laws. SO...Would he, at some point in the future, if a new hienous gun comes out, THEN SIGN a federal bill?

We don't know...because Dean tries to placate every side of the debate...just like his shithead view on capital punishment. He's AGAINST it...Untill you kill a person who has a certain career choice...This guy won't get elected and if the Dems nominate him Im voting Green.

[DagmarK]

2. I can only suggest that you do what you can to hear him speak in person...

and then judge for yourself. The other candidates? You pretty much just need a printout of what their platforms are. With Dean, you just have to see him in person to know what the deal is. We are voting for the man and his platform.

He's honest and courageous and principled. You know when you meet a person...you get a good feel for who they are? You just know you've meet someone who has incredible integrity? They just exhude it?

That's Dean.........

[janx]

71. Yes. One example would be (and cynics won't believe it):

The Death Penalty. Dean has changed his mind about this one, as have I a couple of times.

I don't want any chance of anyone who might be possibly innocent to die prematurely. As an M.D., Dean probably does not either. And for many years, he could not stomach the prospect. But here's where the logic changes: Suppose a child killer, pedophile type gets released from jail. This happens. It is a flaw in our judicial system. Now suppose this person (or a person having another sick flavor when it comes to murder) gets out--as they inevitably do from time to time. Letting those people out is in itself a choice that would lead to more death. You let a person like that out of jail, you are saying, "We won't kill this guy, but someone else will be killed." So you are advocating someone's death that way. Really. Serial murderers can seldom be rehabilitated. If you let one out, you are essentially advocating the murder not of that serial murderer, but of several people. That's just the way it goes. So you are making a decision for murder if you let the person out, and that happens increasingly these days. It stinks that it happens, but it does. If our judicial system could guarantee that all serial murderers, pedophiles, etc. would be kept in jail, there would be no problem. But they get out. And they kill again. And so in letting them out we guarantee more murder.

I have gone back and forth on this subject myself. At this point, I don't believe in capital punishment. But I understand the logic of limited capital punishment, and the logic is true. Sometimes locking someone up is not enough because that person inevitably gets out and kills again and again--one maybe more, that is the result. You are actually purporting more death than just the guy in jail, three or more may die as he continues on his or her way.

The Bush/Texas form of capital punishment will never make sense to me at all, however. That is beyond the realm of human decency.

Dean is being honest about this. It is an incredibly difficult moral subject. I admire him for his honesty, especially since he and his wife are both M.D.s.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. Don't know about Dean

but Kerry still defends his vote on the war, which is a complete turn-off to me. Do you know how Kerry stands on really supporting the troops with money, child tax credits, and longer medical benefits for returning Guardsmen and reservists? Right now, a lot of military families are discouraged and are looking for a leader who can get them out of the Iraqi mess.

[JohnKleeb]

4. Kerry even has a vets for Kerry all ready

http://www.johnkerry.com/site/PageServer?pagename=vet_main
He's a good man though I disagreed with him about the war but he is better than Dean even with that imo.

[DrFunkenstein]

11. See Kerry Speak About Vets (Bring A Hanky)

http://cspanrm.fplive.net:554/ramgen/cspan/edrive/wh111102_vietnam.rm

<>

Kerry has been a long-time supporter of Veterans' Rights. It is probably the issue closest to his heart. The more you read about him, the more you understand how Vietnam haunts him. People complain he talks to much about it, but it deeply, deeply affected him.

He has always been most comfortable around veterans. He loses the whole senatorial thing, and really seems to open up.

Note: His speech begins at 12:00 into the clip.

[JohnKleeb]

22. thats one of my issues although I am not a vet

[LiberalTexan]

41. Then why in the hell did he vote for the war?????????????

I met Kerry back in April 2002. He talked in his speech about how important it was to QUESTION the leaders because the most important decision that a leader has to make is sending our young men and women into harms way. We ALL believed that he would vote NOT to send our brothers and sisters into harms way unless it was ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY.

Now, even after the evidence has come out that Bush mislead the entire nation, Kerry comes out repeatedly saying that he did the right thing by voting for the war. Saddam needed to be taken out, he said.

HOW QUICKLY he forgot those young people (most of them minorities) that were to be sent to foreign lands to DIE. And, they did. And, they still ARE dying. And, he still refuses to say it wasn't a good thing.

It pisses me off to no end. Less than six months after he told us how important it was to question BUSH, he gives him a free ride into Iraq. INCREDIBLE.

That was enough for me. If he's going to flip flop on an issue as important as THAT, then what other lies can I expect from Kerry????


Edit: spelling-- there's probably more errors I didn't catch!

[AfricanDonkey]

83. I believe he called for the Troops to come home already

He called the Iraq situation Vietnam 2

[blm]

23. Kerry and Wellstone worked together for years

on veteran's issues and military benefits. They believe in keeping the promises made and strengthening them with even better benefits.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

28. To posts 4, 11 and 23............READ THE THREAD TITLE!

The poster already knows about Kerry. He asked about Dean.

Damn push-pollers! ;-)

[blm]

77. The reply was appropriate to post #3

And unless you acknowledge that, you are just trying to promote a negative perception.

;)

[pansypoo53219]

5. because we need someone

who is gonna fight against the MWs and is a candidate that will get the sheeple off their collective ASSES and vote, and he has already shown that he is inspiring people.
and i am a firebreathing liberal who ust needs Bushit GONE.
and a nascent deanie baby.

[shance]

6. Youre a liberal and your for Clarke, Biden, or Kerry?

LOL!***

Not buying anything other than the fact you want to post another anti-Dean thread.

[hrhjustin]

9. I am a liberal but dean scares me not about his ideas but his

ability to win

[w13rd0]

13. The Dean campaign...

...has proven over the last two quarters that they are innovative, building support across demographics and the political spectrum, and that they can gain and grow support, fundraising and grassroots activity. I simply don't think there's a thing you can say about his "ability to win" that can't be said for every other candidate in some form or fashion. And considering your desire for Biden to enter the race, you'll have to understand if we are "skeptical" to say the least of your...um...assessments...

[dorktv]

52. Why?

Kerry is a good senator but he is kind of dull, Dean is exciting, fun and can pack a room in no time.

[SGrande]

10. wow, really gonna win a lot over that way...

lol

[blm]

24. Kerry and Clark are to the left of Dean.

Why shouldn't a liberal be for those two?

[janx]

33. How so? These labels are starting to get stale.

How are Kerry and Clark to the left of Dean?

[George_Bonanza]

43. Any political expert will say Kerry's more liberal than Dean

Kerry is more vigorously pro-environment, although Dean's no Bush. Kerry is opposed to the death penalty. Kerry says he will filibuster than pro-life supreme court justice nominee. Kerry was for gay rights since the 80s. Kerry has some serious anti-war credentials, like protesting Vietnam, opposing Reagan's anti-communist policies abroad (like Iran-Contra), and opposing the first Gulf War. He was also just about the only Democrat to be vocal against Bush on Afghanistan, a bumble of a mistake. Just go to issues2002.org or vote-smart and see Kerry's very liberal record.

[janx]

50. How is he more vigorously pro-environment?

His pro-choice stance is roughly the same as Dean's--except that Dean's is probably stronger because he's an M.D. and his wife is an M.D.. Ditto gay rights, except that Dean actually did something about it. As for the anti-war credentials...we'd better not go there for obvious reasons. Kerry voted for the Iraq war, a phony war (if I knew it was based on phony intelligence, then surely a senator like Kerry knew). Being vocal against Bush on Afghanistan makes no sense, unless you do not know that Al Qaeda was behind an attack that killed 3,000 Americans.

Were we to do nothing about that?

[George_Bonanza]

51. Do your research!

"His pro-choice stance is roughly the same as Dean's--except that Dean's is probably stronger because he's an M.D."

"Ditto gay rights, except that Dean actually did something about it."

Total bullshit. Go to http://www.vote-smart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=S0421103, and look at Homosexual Issues and Abortion. Not doing anything? What kind of informed statement is that? Do your freaking research. For your information, Kerry was one of only 14 dissenters in the Defense of Marriage Act, which sought to define marriage as a union between a man and a woman. The bill was passed and approved under Clinton.

"Being vocal against Bush on Afghanistan makes no sense, unless you do not know that Al Qaeda was behind an attack that killed 3,000 Americans."

So Bush aced Afghanistan? You gotta be joking me. So Kerry's wrong in criticizing Bush's non-existent rebuilding program?

"As for the anti-war credentials...we'd better not go there for obvious reasons. Kerry voted for the Iraq war, a phony war (if I knew it was based on phony intelligence, then surely a senator like Kerry knew)."

Yet another simplistic argument. Yes, Kerry did vote for the bill, but to use that event to supercede his past anti-war stances like in Vietnam and Reagan's fierce anti-communist policies is short-sighted.

[janx]

57. OK--

"For your information, Kerry was one of only 14 dissenters in the Defense of Marriage Act, which sought to define marriage as a union between a man and a woman. The bill was passed and approved under Clinton."

Good. That's very good that he dissented. I'm not criticizing Kerry on this. I'm questioning your statement that he is "more liberal" than Dean re gay rights. This is good but it doesn't prove that he is more liberal on gay rights. Dean actually signed a bill that afforded the Vermont gay population equal rights via civil unions. Now, where I come from I don't see that as a liberal matter--I see it as a constitutional matter. But I understand that you see it as a liberal matter, and even if you do, this still doesn't mean that Kerry is "more liberal" than Dean. I'm not knocking Kerry on this; I'm just addressing your statement.

"So Bush aced Afghanistan? You gotta be joking me. So Kerry's wrong in criticizing Bush's non-existent rebuilding program?"

Certainly not. But again, that doesn't mean that Kerry is "more liberal" than Dean is. It is an indisputable fact that the situation in Afghanistan is a mess now. The decision to go there wasn't. The mess that is there now is attributable to the fact that we lost sight of our goal in Afghanistan to go to war with Iraq--a country that had nothing to do with 9/11.

"Yet another simplistic argument. Yes, Kerry did vote for the bill, but to use that event to supercede his past anti-war stances like in Vietnam and Reagan's fierce anti-communist policies is short-sighted."

I don't use it to supercede anything. It does not support your statement in the way that you mean it to be supported. As a matter of fact, it used to be the very old conservatives who were against preemption in war--very staunchly so. The decision to wage war and occupy Iraq now though is beyond conservative or liberal--it was simply fascist and maniacal.

I would also hasten to point out that it doesn't take someone "more liberal" than anyone to recognize that Viet Nam was a disaster or that Reagan's lust for his crazy anti-communism was out of control.

Again, I am not bashing Kerry. But your statement that "Kerry is more liberal than Dean" simply is not supported by the information you cite.

Part of the problem is the fact that these labels have become blurred and are losing their meaning as a result of the hijacking of the Republican party by the religious right and the neo-cons. Many of the old labels don't apply anymore.

[janx]

58. Kerry and Abortion matters

At first your link didn't work, but I figured it out. Some of what it yielded frankly surprised me.

John Kerry, 1991:


Key Vote

Parental Consent

Bill Number: HR 2707
Issue: Abortion
Date: 09/11/1991
Sponsor: Kassebaum, R-KS


Roll Call Number: 0186
Passed
Full Member List


Senator John Forbes Kerry voted YES.

Require federally-funded clinics to obtain parental consent for a minor's abortion.

HR 2707 (Fiscal 92 Labor, HHS and Education Appropriations);
Amendment;
9/11/91

Outcome: Passed 92-8

Congressional Quarterly Number: 1991 - S186

Amendment introduced by Kassebaum, R-KS.
Bill Status:
Bill Number: HR 2707 - 102nd Congress (1991-92)
House Passage Vote: 06/26/91 - Outcome: Passed
Senate Passage Vote: 09/12/91 - Outcome: Passed
House Conference Report Vote: 11/06/91 - Outcome: Passed
Senate Conference Report Vote: 11/07/91 - Outcome: Passed
Presidential Action: Vetoed on 11/19/91
House Override Vote: 11/19/91 - Outcome: Rejected
No further action was taken on this bill, never became law."

I did not know this about Senator Kerry.

During the same year, this:

Key Vote

Abortion Counselling - Conference Report



Bill Number: HR 2707
Issue: Abortion
Date: 11/07/1991
Sponsor:


Roll Call Number: 0246
Passed
Full Member List


Senator John Forbes Kerry voted YES.

Pass bill that included permitting abortion counselling in federally funded clinics.

HR 2707 (Fiscal 92 Labor, HHS and Education Appropriations);
Conference Report (Final Passage);
11/7/91

Outcome: Passed 73-24

Congressional Quarterly Number: 1991 - S246

Bill Status:
Bill Number: HR 2707 - 102nd Congress (1991-92)
House Passage Vote: 06/26/91 - Outcome: Passed
Senate Passage Vote: 09/12/91 - Outcome: Passed
House Conference Report Vote: 11/06/91 - Outcome: Passed
Senate Conference Report Vote: 11/07/91 - Outcome: Passed
Presidential Action: Vetoed on 11/19/91
House Override Vote: 11/19/91 - Outcome: Rejected
No further action was taken on this bill, never became law.

[janx]

59. Voted in 1992 to disallow military abortions overseas

This one's even worse...

Key Vote

Overseas Military Abortions



Bill Number: S 3114
Issue: Abortion
Date: 09/18/1992
Sponsor: Coats, R-IN


Roll Call Number: 0220
Rejected
Full Member List


Senator John Forbes Kerry voted NO.

Strike the provisions of the bill that would allow U.S. military personnel and their families to obtain abortions at U.S. military bases overseas at their own expense.

S 3114 (Fiscal 1993 Defense Authorization);
Amendment;
9/18/92

Outcome: Rejected 36-55

Congressional Quarterly Number: 1992 - S220

Amendment introduced by Coats, R-IN.

Bill Status:
Bill Number: S 3114 - 102nd Congress (1991-92)
Senate Passage Vote: 09/18/92 - Outcome: Passed by Voice Vote
No further action was taken on this bill, never became law.

[VoteClark]

63. That is so misleading and you know it

"at their own expense". The military pays for it. Duhhh!
Why should they have to pay for it at their own expense if at home the military pays for it. Oh yeah. What a misleading trick!

:kick:
J4Clark

[janx]

67. No, I don't know it... it could mean a number of things.

I am not coming out to bash Kerry. For pete's sake! When are you going to realize this? I am only pasting what I find on the site.

[janx]

68. But I will say that they should have been allowed to pay for it

at their own expense if necessary.

[janx]

60. If you read my last two posts and look at the corresponding

information from your link (it was very helpful, thanks), you will find that Kerry did a 180 on abortion starting in about 1993.

That's OK; candidates are allowed to change their minds, and Kerry changed his for the better, and that's good. But it does make me wonder why. And it does not support your point that Kerry is more liberal than Dean.

You didn't answer my question about environment. I'll take a look at that one also. This site is a good one; I've seen it before, and thank you for bringing it to my attention again.

[janx]

61. Kerry looks good on environment--

even going all the way back to 1991:

Key Vote

Federal Facility Compliance Act - Passage



Bill Number: HR 2194
Issue: Environment
Date: 10/24/1991
Sponsor:


Roll Call Number: 0230
Passed
Full Member List


Senator John Forbes Kerry voted YES.

Allow Environmental Protection Agency to enforce environmental laws against federal facilities.

HR 2194 (Federal Facility Compliance Act);
Passage;
10/24/91

Outcome: Passed 94-3

Congressional Quarterly Number: 1991 - S230

Bill Status:
Bill Number: HR 2194 - 102nd Congress (1991-92)
House Passage Vote: 06/24/91 - Outcome: Passed
Senate Passage Vote: 10/24/91 - Outcome: Passed
House Conference Report Vote: 09/23/92 - Outcome: Passed
Senate Conference Report Vote: 09/23/92 - Outcome: Passed by Voice Vote
Presidential Action: Signed on 10/06/92
Public Law Number: 102-386 106 Stat. 1505

He is steady on his support of environmental causes. Can't complain about that. Chalk one up for Senator Kerry.

But...it still doesn't mean he is more liberal than Dean. Do you understand where I'm going with this?

[George_Bonanza]

74. Dean's liberal, no doubt...

Please don't take my comments as trying to prove Dean a Republican or anything. I know he's a liberal, every Dem is for that matter.

Why is Kerry more liberal? For one thing, Dean is very conservative with money, so that pulls Dean to the right more. Dean is more relaxed on the death penalty, and on gun control, so that pulls him a bit to the right more than Kerry. His non-existent anti-war stance before Iraq does not stand up to Kerry's anti-war record. Iraq may be a blemish on Kerry, but he has loads of backup to make up for that in deciding who the true anti-war man is. So that pushes Kerry to the left more. Kerry and Dean may share the same love for the environment, but Kerry has done more for a longer time (vigorous environmentalist since the 70s) than Dean. So those accomplishments push Kerry to the left more. While Kerry supports NAFTA, he is never one to bow down to big business. I don't know what Dean's stance on business is.

[blm]

78. Dean has always been probusiness

and he spent 11 years proving it.

Dean is no way liberal and even targeted liberal icons to mock when he aligned with his GOP allies in Vermont. He also supported Bush on Sierra Blanca and Yucca Mt. He is not considered a great pro environmentalist politician.

[George_Bonanza]

27. Kerry is more liberal than Dean

[janx]

34. How so?

[George_Bonanza]

82. Read this

http://www.globalstewards.org/democrats.htm#lib

I think Dennis Kucinich is more liberal than Kerry in most areas, but his previous pro-life voting record hurts him in his report card. Still, Kerry's 93% rating is phenomenal, especially for such a mainstream Democrat.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

7. Go this link:

http://www.c-span.org/VideoArchives.asp?CatCodePairs=Series,RWH&Page=2

And watch the video.

[madfloridian]

8. Well, I will just tell you that these guys can NOT be wrong about Dean.

http://photos.deanforamerica.com/gallery/14996/1

They know a good guy when they see one.

[DrFunkenstein]

12. No Fair!!!

Must...resist...cuteness...overpowered...

[ThorsteinVeblen]

15. Those are awesome.

I starting another thread.

[Cha]

21. Cute, the Dogs!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

30. Dogs for Kerry

My dogs have started a Dogs for Kerry chapter here in Montana.

woof woof!

[janx]

35. The same holds true for THIS guy and gal:

Huck and Finn!



They know what's happening and want their country back!

[killbotfactory]

14. First, why do you think it would lead to a '72 or '84 type loss?

Is it his opposition to the Iraq war?

[dsc]

16. Dean can win

First he has, assuming the current putrid economy continues, our best message. "Are you better off than you were 4 years ago?" He can demonstrate having left Vermont much better than he found it in every single economic indicator.

Second, his record on guns, which I am not happy with, is a winner in many places Gore narrowly lost. Places like WV, TN, AR, NH, and to a lesser extent OH. I think he would be a very plausible candidate in any of those states.

Third, The Nader factor would be lessened by him IMO. That would help in several states Gore narrowly won WA, IA, MN, and FL to name four.

[w4rma]

17. FYI: Larry Sabato's crystal ball (electorial college map) + Dean's support

http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/pres_college-dean.htm

The Old College Try
by Larry J. Sabato, June 23, 2003

With less than eighteen months to go before Election Day 2004, what does the Electoral College picture look like?

Wait, you say. How could even the Crystal Ball pretend to have a fix on electoral votes this far out? The answer is simple: Because of the polarization of the Red and the Blue. As we argued in Overtime: The Election 2000 Thriller, hot-button social issues such as abortion, guns, and gay rights have separated the American states into Blue "Tolerant America" and Red "Traditional America". And this polarization gives every sign of persisting. As we showed in our new book, Midterm Madness: The 2002 Elections, the Bush and anti-Bush coalitions continue to drive current American politics.

Is it possible that a strong economic recovery, among other factors, could produce a Bush reelection landslide in 2004? Yes, but such an event would not obliterate the Red and the Blue, merely override those tendencies for one election season. Similarly, a double-dip recession might enable the Democratic nominee to capture several Red states and the Presidency, yet the underlying split would persist.
http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/pres_college.htm

Dean Raises $7.5 Million in Second Quarter
In the second quarter ending yesterday, 59,000 Americans donated an average of $112 to help boost Governor Howard Dean to the top of the second quarter fundraisers with a total of $7.5 million raised.

Unlike the small, exclusive multi-million dollar fundraisers held in major cities by President Bush over the last week, the Dean campaign saw its numbers surge based on small donations over the Internet—with nearly $3 million raised online in the last week alone. In the second quarter, 45,030 people donated online a total of 51,474 times. The average donation online was $74.14.

“When we said last week during the governor’s announcement that ‘You have the power,’ we had no idea just how much power our supporters had,” said Campaign Manager Joe Trippi. “They are people participating directly in their democracy, and doing whatever they can to help us take our country back—giving $20, $30, or $50. This is People-Powered Howard.”

Second quarter fundraising by the numbers:

Total raised in second quarter: $7,500,000 Total donors (2003 to date): 70,000
Average contribution: $112

First time donors in second quarter: 48,000

Levels of Internet Giving:
Less than $50: 18,422
$50 -- 99: 11,579
$100 -- $249: 11,436
$250 -- $499: 2,379
$500 -- $1,000: 368
$1,000 and up: 129
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000584.html

Howard Dean's trick by Mark Shields
WASHINGTON (Creators Syndicate) -- The reaction of the Democratic Party establishment to former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean's raising more money during the second quarter of the year than any of his eight rivals for the party's presidential nomination reminds me of the legendary Theodore White's memorable report of the scene in the Boston Garden during John F. Kennedy's last campaign rally on the eve of the 1960 presidential election.

JFK, according to White, was surrounded on the stage by a " covey of the puffy, pink-faced, predatory-lipped politicians who had so dominated Massachusetts politics before he had taken over." Noting their "envious faces" as the candidate spoke, Richard Donahue, a Kennedy aide observed: "You know they can't understand this. They think he has a trick. They're listening to him because they think if they learn the trick, they can be president, too."
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/07/07/column.shields.opinion.dean/
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000634.html

73,000 and Growing on Meetup
I'm running out of words for today -- nearly 1,000 new people signed up for Meetup since 2 PM. It's enough to say "nearly 1,000," but when you think of each individual typing in their name and pulling out their calendar and planning to take two hours this Wednesday to meet people they have never met and talk about how they can change this country, its awe-inspiring. 73,000 exactly on Meetup. Invite your friends -- this is still the ground floor of the greatest grassroots campaign in presidential history, and this is the week to join.

Posted by Zephyr Teachout at 06:24 PM
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000934.html

251,823 Americans for America
251,823 people have now joined the Dean for America Campaign! As today's Iowa poll shows, this is a broad based campaign, with strong support in labor households, rural areas, and across all age ranges.
...
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000920.html

Generation Dean Tops 300 Groups and is Still Growing!
In the past 24 hours, over 20 new Generation Dean groups have formed all across the country. This surge, thanks to all of you, helped Generation Dean reach over 300 groups nationwide.
...
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000878.html

26,376 People have Signed the Truth Petition
Yesterday, Governor Dean called for the resignation of those who misled the nation in regards to Iraq, and asked people to join him. In less than 24 hours, 26,376 people added their names to the truth petition. That's over 1,000 new people every hour.

"This is a tremendous outpouring of frustration from the American people," Dean said today. "They know that someone has misled them, misled our troops and misled the world. Someone must be held responsible for damaging America's reputation in the world community. We must be able to trust our leaders, just as the rest of the world must be able to trust us."

Please cut and paste this URL and send it to your friends, asking them to join the petition:

http://www.deanforamerica.com/truth
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000660.html

[dorktv]

53. That map is wrong...Arizona is becoming a major Dean

state...I know more people who are against Bush here then are for him.

[DrFunkenstein]

18. I Think The Comparisons Are Convenient, But Wrong

I am a very strong supporter of Kerry, but not on the issue of electability. I happen to like Dean's energy and, although I dislike his negative snipes at other Dems, I think he would make a hell of a candidate. I put him miles above my third choice, Gephardt (sorry, but Kucinich is an electability issue), but clearly in second place.

I think that Kerry has more depth when it comes to certain vital issues, and his progressive positions most clearly mirror my own. I think the "war hero" narrative matches up particularly well against AWOL Bush, but it is very far from my reason for supporting him.

[w13rd0]

20. Thank you...

...I'm hoping we see more of this kind of rational discussion of chosen candidates. I think both Dean and Kerry would make excellent Presidents, far better than the current regime to be sure. And some of the recent moves by both campaigns, in attacking Bush without apology, is the right way to go this far ahead of the convention. They'll do their own candidacies well to ensure that come election time, Bush is not only beatable, but the only real question we have to ask at convention time is who do we want to replace him...

[Ishkaboogl]

19. i don't see a loss on that magnitude

dean probably couldn't win the south, but might stand a chance in WV, MO, and NM. i think he has a better chance in the midwest than in the south.

point of clarification - WV is not the south, i don't care what anyone says.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

25. I think it's a damn shame

that we have to even talk about electability. I would think that with what Bush has wrought, and with his sheer unadulterated ignorance, ANY OF THESE CANDIDATE should be able to beat him with their hands tied behind their backs. Sheesh.

I know it's popular to suggest that Dean will get mauled by BushCo for his anti-war stance (once again, he's not anti-war, he's anti-ILLEGAL-war, as are all the candidates, except Lieberman, apparently), or because he's from Vermont or because he's short or because he blinks too much or because he's too angry (show me an informed Democrat who's NOT angry), but this is a brave new world of politics, and the Dean campaign is an enigma. His campaign has been one surprise after another. I certainly don't think he's a slam dunk for the nomination, it's a tough road, but don't count him out based on what's happened in the past.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

31. I think the real problem

I think the real problem is not that he will be mauled for his anti-war stance but as his other positions become better known he will have trouble energizing the base. Up till now it has been a one-issue phenomenom, and since he has been labeled a liberal by the establisment press, a lot of folks end up pretty surprised when they find out his real views.

[LiberalTexan]

44. No, the problem is

HE'S ALL OVER THE BOARDS. No one can TELL exactly where Dean is. Some label him a liberal, some a centrist, some and independent, some a conservative (fiscally)....... The point is he's issue driven and that is so confusing to some folks who try to label him (and dismiss him).

I personally don't see Howard Dean have any problem energizing the base. That part made me laugh. It's happening here in Texas. And, folks are coming out in droves to the Meetups. Each time we get together we have twice the people as the last Meetup.

And, you say that folks end up pretty surprised when they find out his real views.........I sure was! I'd been going to Meetups for three months before I decided to back Howard Dean. And, I see others doing the same. When they find out that the press can't attack him for being "too liberal" it actually is attractive to me and others. I don't see people running from the Dean camp when they find out about his issues! Quite the contrary!

[Kahuna]

26. I agree with you completely...

If Clark or Biden get in I will go with them. I don't want to relive '72 and '84. The long term effects of pushing for non-electable "liberal" candidates is just not worth it.

[DrFunkenstein]

29. My Anemic Brainchild

<>

<>

Sorry, had to do that. But what a winning ticket! A windsurfer and the Supreme Commander of NATO!!!

[janx]

36. Dean has a very broad appeal to liberals, independents,

and some greens. He even appeals to some libertarians who feel that 2nd Amendment rights and civil rights should not be curtailed by goverment. Heck, even some moderate Republicans like him and are volunteering for his campaign because they see what's at stake for our country. And they want their country back too.

His appeal is HUGE.

[genius]

37. The thing that angers liberals is the liberal lie

He should admit that he is a conservative on civil rights, military build-up, etc.

[indigo32]

38. give me a link

to even one time he has used the word liberal to describe himself?

[janx]

39. Genius, if you want (like most of us) to get this country out of

the mess that it's in, you cannot insist on your vision of liberal perfection every step of the way. There are going to be some things in any candidate you won't agree with. You seem to be mewling and puking just because this candidate isn't going 100 percent with your ideology all of the time.

That's very impractical and won't get anyone anywhere when it comes to electing both a fine president and a president strong enough, smart enough, and practical enough to oust Chimpy.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

42. No one is asking for 'liberal perfection'. Just honesty.

[janx]

49. Honesty where? Honesty from whom?

?

[George_Bonanza]

40. Dean always admits he's a centrist

But it's the stupid media, and some of the public who can't grasp that fact. There is Lieberman, cluelessly accusing Dean of being an extremist. If Dean's an extremist, then Kerry's some unnatural, inhuman, off-the-scale, so-far-left-you-can't-even-see-him candidate. Dean explicitly states many times he's a centrist, but the uninterested public and media don't really care, they just equate Dean with anti-Iraq, which makes him a liberal. Stupid...

[LiberalTexan]

45. LARRY-- I AM THE CENTER!!!!!!!!!

I love when he said that on Larry King Live when asked if he should move more towards the center. LOL I hope all of Amrerica got that!

Here in Texas we've got a lot of issue driven moderate Republicans that are coming out to the Meetups and getting active. They can't stomach any more what Bush is doing to America and to their party. They see Howard Dean as to the left of center, but more in the way of a John McCain type. And, they can HANDLE THAT. And, they LIKE THAT. And, I think that really raises Dean's chances.

I know a lot of moderate Dems especially in the South that would vote for McCain if we were in a situation where some radical person hijacked our party and took America down the path of economic destitution and world hatred against us (not saying that could happen......just purely hypothetical!!!!) :)

To be honest with you, I think we would have lost the Election 2000 had McCain been the GOPs candidate. They really shot themselves in the foot when Bush became their guy.

[janx]

47. My S.O. and I were watching that and right after Larry's question,

we both said aloud: "He is the center," and Dean said, "Larry, I AM the center..."

It was GREAT.

[DrFunkenstein]

48. Marginal, Not Liberal

Dean puts himself as the polar opposite of Bush. He can't mean in style, because they are both rich-boy populists. Media logic dictates that he must mean he is as liberal as Bush is conservative. What they forget is that Bush isn't conservative, he's off the map. the opposite of that would be on the map.

[genius]

46. I agree. Bush is hoping that a guy who can be nailed with inconsistencies

and who can get caught misstating his positions will get the nomination. Bush will paint himself as for civil liberties compared with Dean. The whole thing will be a joke. But America will buy it and Bush will landslide over this guy. I predicted the results of 2000. The results of a 2004 race of Bush against Dean are not likely to be any better for the Democrats.

[dorktv]

54. Well Dean is going to beat Bush...Especially since he

has people who normally vote for third party canidates...See Bush is a unifier...only he is creating unity on the OTHER side of him. And if Dean goes negative on Bush...Bush is going to be totally demolished.

[poskonig]

55. Why you should vote for Dean:

I. Dean can win.

a. Dean's gun stance puts us in play in states like West Virginia
b. Dean's M.D. gives him credibility on health care
c. Dean is the only Democratic candidate challenging Bush on his own turf, defense.
d. Dean has balanced budgets through not one but *two* Bush recessions, and has cut taxes several times in Vermont, making him the ideal candidate to rip Bush on the economy.
e. Dean will bring a tidal wave of Democratic activists to the polls in Nov '04.
f. Dean has an uncanny ability to appeal to moderates, Greens, and independents.
g. Dean is a great orator.

II. Dean is desirable.

As a medical doctor, Dean is trained to make decisions based on facts, not ideology or faith. This translates into:

a. giving the Republic a credible, honest foreign policy.
b. bringing jobs back to the United States
c. pragmatism guided by solid Democratic values.

[dorktv]

56. you forgot:

Dean did sign a civil union law for gays in Vermont.

he did not make a huge deal out of the signing but he DID sign an actual piece of legislation for it. Kerry just voted against DofM Act.

[AfricanDonkey]

84. I think Dean can win but what concerns me

Is that his supporters may drive away normal Americans.

[rcglenn]

64. Justin, I know it seems unlikely that Dean would win, but......

After the barrage of media analysis saying Dean's Iraq war stance would devestate him in the general election, I only have one word for them.....SURPRISE! Boy are they in for a surprise, the Dean campaign is not only the most underestimated federal campaign in US history but he is also changing American politics every second of the day. The momentum in this campaign comes from two simple methods, a) Howard Dean is the most inspiring orator this party has seen since Clinton, and more importantly b)this campaign is the ONLY true campaign of the people (see below what I mean by this)! The reason Dean will win has less to do with his policies and personality and more to do with his campaign.

Howard Dean is bringing multitudes of people into the political process like never before. Almost 300,000 volunteers and supporters have signed up to help out the campaign. 93,000 different people have donated money to the campaign. The list keeps going on and on. The way all previous campaigns were run was by putting ads on the TV or radio, and putting signs in the yard. Very little interaction between the voters and the candidate (or campaign workers) were made besides the few voters of New Hampshire and Iowa that really get involved during the primaries. Dean's not-so-revolutionary idea, is actually bringing people together to discuss and take part in the political process again. Democrats will win in 2004 if they can start a true grassroots campaign, where millions of Democrats actually get their hands dirty and get involved in the political process. The reason Dean is catching on has less to do with magazine covers and media buys, but much more to do with the campaigns ability to bring people together working to elect Howard Dean. I know I am much more likely to support a candidate that I invest time in working for.

Regardless of the 2004 nominee, I sure hope the Democrats realize this new method of campaigning. The unfortunate aspect is, I don't see Kerry or other boring candidates able to rile up the support of a grassroots campaign like Dean is. I promise you Justin, Dean will win. And as I just explained, with your help like the other 300,000 supporters so far we can honestly take this country back. No, these are not Dean talking points or political mumbo-jumbo, this is the truth. I believe this with all my heart. Dean will win if nominated by this great party of ours'. If would like to discuss this matter fruther, please e-mail me at [e-mail] .

[janx]

66. A very succinct post--thanks for putting it here.

Like you, I've never seen anything like this. We should all consider this in terms of U.S. elections history. (And I'm no kid.)

Dean will run, and Dean will win. He is Bush's political, moral, and constitutional nemesis. And I'm proud to participate in the process. The people--not the corporations, not the grubby politicians, not the media--are voicing their support for Dean in HUGE numbers.

It's gorgeous!

[SyracuseDemocrat]

70. Dean could very well be it

He is a centrist but socially progressive. He might just be what we need.

[tameszu]

72. Because Dean's position on Iraq could pay off huge

If Iraq continues to go south, and assuming Trippi will be as good at getting Dean a foreign policy/defense advisor as he at getting 'Net funds, then Dean is the most well-placed out of all of the current candidates to hammer Bush on it. This is a risk, but given what's happening now, there's not a bad chance that it will pay off.

He also combines a style that can energize the base, with policies that are moderate enough--including, importantly, his positions and record on the economy and gun control--to theoretically fend off the "too liberal" label.

Kerry cuts an impressive figure, but his "energizing the base : being labelled a Northeastern elitist liberal" ratio is much, much worse than Dean's at the moment--if Iraq stays sour. If Bush stumbles into a miracle and things start getting better (unlikely given how royally they've #%@^-up the after part of Afghanistan), then the calculus completely changes.

I myself am also very partial to Clark. If he enters, then I think the main factor (besides how Iraq and the economy are going) will be if his campaign inexperience will hurt him and whether media exposure will start to crank up his negatives with stories about nasty feelings old military rivals or other Kosovo players might have about him. Right now, though, his name recognition : negatives ratio is amazing. He also has phenomenal moderate appeal and has the added benefit that he can get away with advocated much more liberal positions than any other candidate. And those stars can't hurt.

Biden. Blech. I don't see him adding anything useful to the race. Wouldn't have added anything useful if he had joined earlier, either. If anyone could explain to me his (comparative) appeal, please do. At least Lieberman's never been busted for plagiarism...

[DrFunkenstein]

73. Dean On Iraq Is Like The Dems In 2002

When they complained about Bush's economy, but presented no alternative. Dean is going to have a hard time telling people that he didn't support the vote to disarm Saddam. Even if no WMDs show up, that won't prove Dean right. He's going to have to explain what he would have done instead, something a little more substantial then just saying "multilateralism."

After 9/11, Americans were not going to put up with any gump from Saddam, who had been jerking around UNSCOM since he signed the peace terms of the Gulf War. What would Dean have done to demand that Saddam agree to absolutely unfettered inspections?

Sure he says he wouldn't have voted against the resolution - even though he did not have access to the CIA reports. But what actions would he have taken? So far, I've heard nothing but words, and I'm still waiting to hear the right ones.

[VoteClark]

75. And on the other hand, they could cost us huge.

Think about it. It the soilders are dying in Iraq because of Chemical Weapons, and not because they caught the flu, and we uncover in sand, like the airplanes, WMD's and missle warheads capable of hitting Isreal, well, I guess Dean will cost us big time. To big a risk. How do we prove that there are no WMD's anyway? We can't. Bush can easily take chemical weapons that are schedualed to be destroyed in Alabama and move them into the sand in Iraq and wait for some other military company to find them and release the information to Reporters. Pretty simple.

:kick:
J4Clark

[rcglenn]

76. Dean believes that WMDs exist!

If you watch Larry King Live from last week, you would know that Dean believes that WMDs existed under the tyrants reign. His whole purpose for disagreeing with the war has nothing to do with WMDs. He believes Bush did not tell the truth when it came to evidence on why Iraq was an immediate threat to our nation. He did not believe the case was made for going to war. I think he has been proven right (atleast so far). He disagrees with the way our nation has turned against our allies to pursue goals, that he believes were less necessary than North Korea, Iran, etc.

It is soooo easy to beat up Howard Dean, but all it takes is to listen to him and read his stance on the positions and everything is cleared up!

[Nicholas_J]

79. This argument is just dumb

If he believes that they existed, and just that the president didnt make his case, then he MUST admit the war was appropriate, as if they existed, then the war should have been started, regardless of evidence, as the president stated.

[rcglenn]

80. you still have a lot to learn nicholas.....

Many countries have WMDs, should we go and bomb them for having them? The reason the war was the wrong one and the wrong time, is because it diverted our attention to the true war that we were fighting (the war on terrorism) I strongly feel less secure now that Bush has allowed Al Queda to reinvigorate themselves. It is a shame that DEMOCRATS would allow such a blunder in the defense of our country!

[George_Bonanza]

81. Are you saying...

That Howard Dean believed there to be WMDs in Iraq in the year 2003? If so, he should've made his own case for going to war, b/c he supported disarmament and recognized Saddam's bending of UN inspections. He DID support Biden-Lugar. But Dean, to the best of my knowledge, didn't offer any kind of alternative war plan.