Congressman Ryan (of Ohio) on Howard Dean and Dennis Kucinich

[dsc]

For the unitiated Tim Ryan is one of only five members Democrats who defeated an incumbent Democrat in a primary last cycle. The five losers were (Sawyer, Condit, McKinney, Hilliard, and Rivers) of those only Sawyer was not targetted by a specific big money interest (Hilliard, McKinney), running against another incumbent (Rivers), or scandal ridden (Condit). Ryan was out spent, very young and unknown, and won big. The following is from 10 questions in the Sunday (31 Aug 03) Plain Dealer.

www.cleveland.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news/1062236014108620.xml?nnusa

Q Talk a little bit about presidential politics. You must be watching this with some interest. And have you talked to Congressman Kucinich about his campaign?

A. "He is bringing the issues forward that he wants brought forward, and I've got a lot of respect for that. But I've got to tell you, I really like Howard Dean . . . There is so much moosh: 'I voted for the tax cut, but I didn't like it. I voted for the war, but I didn't like it.' It is refreshing to hear guys like him and Dennis shoot from the hip, bacause I think that's what people want."

[George_Bonanza]

1. Dean doesn't vote for something and says he doesn't like it

Because he never voted for anything in Congress! You'd think a congressman would know that. Dean never has to put his views into stone while he's unemployed. He can stake out a stance, while others have to make up their mind and vote for it and deal with the consequences, while he can gradually "evolve" and make tweaks to make himself sound wiser or clearer.

There are things Dean did when he was in politics that he didn't "shoot from the hip." Dean's not that cozy with Vermont environmentalists for his siding with big business, and his stances at Sierra Blanca, yada yada. I'm sure you heard the rest.

[calimary]

7. Yes, but, with all due respect...

I see Kerry's photo in your post. I humbly submit that John Kerry is the poster boy for the reference Ryan made that were cited above - about those who said they voted for the war but didn't like it, and they voted for the tax cut but they didn't like it. Voted for the Patriot Act but not only didn't like it, probably didn't take the time to read through it.

I would gently remind you that Howard Dean was against the war from the get-go, back when everybody who "voted for the war but didn't like it and voted for the tax cut but didn't like it" were still claiming they were justified, and everyone thought Howard Dean was a crazy nut for sticking his neck out on what was PERCEIVED AT THE TIME to be an unpopular cause. Obviously he didn't look at the poll numbers back then to determine what his stance should be on the war. You COULD NOT FIND poll numbers that indicated a majority of Americans were against the war. There was far too much propaganda promoting the war that people just simply fell for, and a precious few voices "crying in the wilderness" and being scorned and mocked and jeered and marginalized for being nutcases and peacenicks and Saddam-lovers and appeasers. I wish I had a nickel for every time somebody called me, personally, a Neville Chamberlain because I said I was against the war.

That was also back when there weren't many details coming out (or being allowed to come out in the mainstream media) that showed how reckless and irresponsible, and just plain WRONG, the case for war was. It's only now, when the mess has been made, that those of us who opposed the war, including Dean, are now being called prescient. Only now are some Americans starting to come around and to realize that we war objectors were right.

If your man, Kerry, actually does prevail and becomes our nominee, I will certainly support him. Without too much hesitation.

But until and unless that happens, he's lost me. Not only with his apologistic support for the war, his inability to resist the bush juggernaut and his refusal to question Der Fuhrer and his henchmen when they were spreading lies from here to the UN with every breath, AND THEN to add insult to injury through his scolding us all to "get over it" about the stolen election and the end of democracy as we knew it in December, 2000, JUST LOST ME, my friend.

Dean didn't HAVE to vote for anything in Congress to be correct about opposing something that was an utter disaster from the get-go. I'd think people would be rather favorably predisposed toward a candidate who was willing to stick his neck out against something he saw to be wrong, before the conventional wisdom FINALLY got around to seeing the light, lo these many moons later. I'd think a candidate like that shows good judgment and good sense, not to mention guts and spine. I'd think a candidate like that would be an ideal presidential candidate, and an ideal president.

Besides, I certainly didn't have to vote for anything in Congress to realize that getting into an act of international aggression against a country that hadn't threatened us was WRONG. And nobody else I know of in the peace movement or at the anti-war rallies I attended cast a vote in Congress, either, and we knew enough to be against it.

Your argument has no merit.

Besides, I have also read plenty from Vermonters and former Vermonters who all agreed Dean was great as a governor, and wasn't the outright environmental villain some paint him to be. He gave some goodies to everybody in the quest for the greater good of all. The only people in Vermont, according to what I've heard and read, who oppose Dean are STRIDENT ultra-leftists, and equally strident ultra-rightists. Which tells me some good stuff.

By the way, please also note before you flame - it's YOUR ARGUMENT that doesn't have merit. NOT YOU, IN THE LEAST!!!!!

[DrFunkenstein]

18. Wrong, Wrong, and, uh, Wrong

Kerry has never been "pro-war." Without the spin, Kerry's stance is exactly that of Howard Dean. Kerry voted for disarmament, but didn't like war. Only difference is that Kerry has been consistent since 1997. Dean waffled from containment to disarmament. The Patriot Act was an emergency measure passed within a month of 9/11. I'm not sure what life was like for you, but around NYC it was still a little crazy. There are mostly good anti-bureaucratic measures in the Act, only Ashcroft - whom Kerry opposed - abused the more suspect parts.

There is a big myth that Dean took a risk by opposing the war. Nothing could be further from the truth. Before his anti-war stance, he was dead in the water. He responded to the lines at his speeches that got the most applause and amplified them. Months later we found out he was not really all that anti-war, but he carefully omitted the details. Kerry told anti-war activists exactly what his position was, even though he knew it would be unpopular.

I was part of the anti-war movement from the beginning. I was not happy about Kerry's vote at the time, but the more I learned about his thinking, the more I understood why he voted the way he did. Not out of expediency, but because he had been saying for years that Saddam needed to submit to unfettered inspectors under the threat of force. He did not think the threat was imminent, nor did he support regime change, unilateralism, or pre-emption. Dean is no more prescient than Kerry.

Why is Kerry held responsible for not resisting the "Bush juggernaut" any more than Dean? Kerry was out there just as Dean was. I didn't see Dean doing anything for the resistance beyond a couple impotent speeches.

Regarding Dean's non-vote (I won't mention that he said he did actually vote "no"), I found it a little hypocritical that Dean said "actions speak louder than words," considering he had offered nothing but hot air himself. If Dean was truly willing to stick his neck out, he would have at least stood by containment instead of switching to Kerry's position of disarmament (when it was politically convenient).

Dean only offered criticism. Kerry laid out exactly what he would have done as President, and it was absolutely the right course of action - hold Saddam's feet to the fire, but do the hard work of diplomacy. All this while Dean was still saying that Iraq was too weak to worry about (a position he changed, as mentioned above). That's called leadership. Not just criticizing Bush, but putting out real solutions.

Again, let me reiterate: Kerry vocally opposed pre-emption, unilateralism, and regime change. Dean would like to spin it otherwise, but that is the truth.

Regarding 2000, when Gore bowed out last year, the reason he gave was that people needed to "get over" 2000 and look to the future. Look back and you'll see I'm absolutely right on this.

As for Dean's environmental villainy, I would not suggest that Dean equals Bush. But like a good centrist, he went to bat for the state's worst polluters for the fiscal bottom-line. Which is not the same as searching for solutions. I am no ultra-leftist, but there are better solutions than outright capitulation (I am tempted to say "bending over," but it's a little over-the-top).

You also forgot to mention Dean's stand on Israel, which is dangerously wrong. If we follow Dean's path of capitulating unilaterally to the Israelis, we will continue to aggravate the Middle East needlessly. There are ways of remaining tough on Palestinian terrorism without destroying the peace process altogether.

Finally, just because you anger ultra-leftists and ultra-rightists doesn't mean you are doing something right. That's a pretty obvious logical fallacy.

[George_Bonanza]

26. Yes, Funk on

Thanks Calimary for a calm and detailed post, but like Dr. Funk, I have to point out the errors in it.

One could make the argument that what Dean did was a political move, opposing the war that is. At the time, he was unemployed, and was a very longshot for president. He had to make his name somehow. At Vermont, he had a been a popular, longtime governor, balancing on the center. He backed civil unions, but also backed industrial firms and big business over environmentalists. The anti-war/anti-Bush movement was very visible ever since "Iraq" and "Saddam" were uttered by the administration. Perhaps he saw this as his only chance to grab a piece of the pie, since it was unlikely any of his other policies and plans would stack up against the likes of Gephardt or Kerry, the more seasoned veterans of congress. There was even an article, at the WP I believe, that stated that an associate of Dean recalled him studying the anti-war crowd.

Kerry's position on Iraq is basically what Dean changed his to now. Dean was all about how Iraq was infirm and all they had to be was contained. Then he changed it to disarmament, probably to broaden his spectrum. Kerry opposed Bush's methods from the get go too. Taking words only, he's just as anti-Gulf War II as Howard Dean. But unlike Dean, he had to actually pitch a vote. And on MTP, he articulated that Bush really didn't need the congress' approval to go into Iraq, and by voting for the sparse bill, at least they got the UN into the picture and limited the theatre of war to Iraq. Perhaps Kerry saw his vote as a personally symbolic one, given the likelihood it was going to pass regardless of what he thought. On one hand, he could just say no and be done with, disassociated with the cause. On the other hand, he could play a part in at least doing something about a cause he has been vocal about all throughout the nineties: Holding Saddam accountable for his actions. And remember, the bill didn't explicitly say Bush HAD to go to war. Bush assured Kerry that he would exhaust diplomacy and come up with a peace plan, and lied to him.

Kerry is NOT, I repeat, NOT afraid of attacking Bush. I think he has, out of all the candidates, been the most consistently vocal anti-Bush, ever since Bush's inauguration. What, just because Kerry said, "Bush is a likeable man, who's a good man who tries to do good things?" Your guy Dean said the exact same things before Kerry. And that little quip is dwarfed by the heaps of criticism Kerry has laid on Bush.

Kerry, LIKE GORE, wants to forget about 2000, because it won't win votes and it's dwelling on the past. Bitching about 2000 is not a good platform for presidency. It's happened. We can't do anything about it, and it won't affect Bush.

You don't need to be an ultra-left Vermonter to be upset at Dean for A) letting insurance rates soar uncontrolled while doctors barely got by on heaps of Medicaid funds (aka the "universal healthcare) B) allowed a Canadian industrial firm blow over 700 acres of farmland C) sided with big business, even reaping high praises from them because "he went to bat for them" D) Approving dumping radioactive waste at Sierra Blanca, TX, a poor Hispanic town

Dean's a great governor, I agree, but you don't have to be an ideological nut to have some quibbles with him. He's not perfect.

"Your argument has no merit."

I was merely refuting Mr. Ryan's claim that Dean doesn't vote and whine about it. It gives the impression that Dean sticks by his votes. Dean doesn't vote. He can stake out a position, then gradually "evolve", depending on the national opinion, but so the public's not aware of it. He has the ability to make the public forget what he said months ago because there's no vote to make it stand out. He has already done this with his Iraq leaning.

[diamondsoul]

32. I agree about Kerry not being afraid

to go after Bush. Of the 9 current candidates, I'd say Sharpton, Kerry, Kucinich and Edwards have done the best jobs of it since they declared and started campaigning.

That "Tired of being trickled on by George Bush!" still kills me! ;)

[donco6]

2. It's rather telling when your collegues . . .

. . . in the same state, no less, can't give you a ringing endorsement.

[diamondsoul]

13. What is it "telling" of?

Interestingly enough, a colleague from a neighboring State who works with Congressman Kucinich on the Progressive Caucus seems to have no trouble walking around with one of his campaign buttons and telling his supporters how much she enjoys working with him.

That ONE colleague from his home State (most likely concerned about alienating those voters who can't see past Cleveland's default when Kucinich was Mayor) doesn't give him a ringing endorsement is not really a huge surprise or concern considering the support he has from other colleagues.

[dsc]

20. Frankly

Ryan and Kucinich have substantially similar districts and points of view. I am not saying he should have necessarily endorsed Kucinich but the idea that he isn't doing so only due to fear of voter backlash is not correct. Both have heavily democratic, white, urban, rust belt districts. Both are Catholic. Both had early starts in politics. Both believe heavily in union economic justice type issues.

[JohnKleeb]

21. Maybe he will

Time will tell :)

[dsc]

29. He well might

I honestly don't personally know Ryan at all. I have heard of him, and admire him from afar. He would be a good fit for Kucinich from what I see.

[JohnKleeb]

31. yeah gotta wait cant judge things

Whos your rep anyhow?

[dsc]

33. Stephen LaTourette

or Congressman for life sadly. Ryan would have been my state Senator if he had lost that primary. His district got redrawn to include my county but that took effect after he had already won the Congressional race.

[Rick Myers]

3. Tim Ryan is Jim Traficant lite

He's a young guy who had some success in local politiks (Youngstown/Warren, OH) but he's out of his league in the House. Biggest problem is the re-districting, which added the Ytown area to parts of Columbiana and even parts of Akron.

He takes his marching orders from the Regional Chamber of Commerce, which, unlike most chambers nationally, seems to think of itself as the fourth branch of government. They are known locally as The Chamber of Horrors.

I'm not posting this to slam Ryan, just to get you a view of haw he is seen from the Mahoning Valley dem perspective...

[dsc]

6. Trafficant ran against him

in the general election. Ryan voted for Pelosi for Speaker (Trafficant voted for Hassert). Ryan voted against Bush't tax cuts (Trafficant voted for them). He isn't Trafficant lite.

[Kolesar]

14. Ryan is not at all like Traficant

Traficant was a criminal who took Mafia money while Mahoning County Sheriff and somehow convinced a jury to find him innocent (there was a jury tampering investigation, btw). Traficant proceeded to run for Congress in the 1980s and took out a Goop who did not belong in the district with the highest proportion of Democratic registration in Ohio (Trumbull and Mahoning).

People who examined Ryan's campaign never said anything like you just said about him. I have talked to members of the Kent State young Democrats club, Trumbull County pols and a bunch of Mahoning County voters who also happen to be my relatives.

[Rick Myers]

17. While I live in Indy now

I am still VERY connected to Valley politics. Traficant ran against him from a jail cell... Not much of a race...

The Chamber has Ryan in it's pocket.

Ryan has minimal experience politically, and knows nothing of the extended areas added during redistricting. And then there's the issue of assaulting a police officer. Oh, but, he was drunk...

I can assure you, I know BOTH men, and Ryan is simply beholden to a different master. He has very much in common with Jimbo...

I stick to everything stated in my earlier post.

[Kolesar]

19. So you are saying that Jim and Tim were alike because the CoC owned them?

Or who is this "master" that Traficant was beholden to? Please elaborate. How else are they alike?

[Rick Myers]

22. Traficant was owned by the Cafaro Family

As exposed in the federal charges against him. Jimbo had a 20 year history of corruption, including escaping federal charges in the 80's even though the Feds has wiretaps and bug tapes of him taking 'payments' from organized crime.

I'm NOT saying that they are 'exactly' the same, but if you know Mahoning valley politiks, you know that ONLY Dems get elected, and the Dems are handpicked by a very few. Youngstown/Warren is more like some village in the Balkans than any US town.

Ryan is simply the New Face of the Old Guard. I could discuss this forever because I KNOW most of the players personally in one way or another... Both 'controlling interests' seek the same thing, funelling as much money into Trumbull County as possible, regardless of the effect on Youngstown and the rest of Mahoning County. This money is run thru 2 properties. The Cafaro development (Eastwood Mall, Cafaro Field, and coming projects) and The Airport, which is controlled and MAJORITY owned by the Chamber of Horrors. And the Chamber is literally the fourth arm of govt. They are the REGIONAL chamber, controlling both Mah and Trum counties.

The ONLY way you could enumerate the corruption in the Valley would be to count the NON-corrupt, which would NOT take both hands. Do you know how many former judges from the area are in prison. The former sherriff, half of the 'bidness' leaders of the past 15 years...

There is a VERY GOOD BOOK in this story, and I'd love to write it, but I don't really want a 22 round to the head...

Rick

[Kolesar]

23. Good answer, that was what I asked for

I had hoped the valley would change for the better after Boss Hanni was deposed and the mafia in America was unraveled, but I see that it will take a few generations or more. That town has such a culture of cynicism and acceptance of crime that it breaks my heart. Let us hope for better days ahead for the old "Steel Valley".

[Rick Myers]

24. Did you know Hanni's son Donnie III is running for school board this year!

Donnie III was busted on his birthday last time he was a school board member, DUI and 2 qtr oz. of ganga...

I did a talk show with him during the 2000 election cycle! A nice guy IF you know where you stand. One thing about his dad, The Bullmooose... He'd tell you straight to your face he was gonna stab you in the back!

BTW: The Hanni family has more sects than the Family Saud!!! Everyone hates everyone... thanksgiving Dinner at the Bull Moose's house could be a HUGE Pay-Per-View!!!

PS---Do you think the country would be interested in a book about "Da Valley?"

[Kolesar]

25. I know about young Donnie

What is he, 46 and finally going to run for office? Late bloomer, I guess. He was co-chair of Jerry Brown's campaign for president in 1980 and totally screwed it up. He forged signatures on ballot petitions. The sad little caper was written up in Ohio Magazine. I would tell you more, but I don't want any hit squads in my neighborhood either. Ha ha ha. :scared:

As for a book about the valley--it seems like a place out of time--no one would believe it. Hanni ran the place like turn-of-the-century Tammani Hall. Of course, the best stories would be about how the local FBI was bought off by organized crime.

[Rick Myers]

27. My friend, I can tell you stories about the local FBI

We are good friends... One agent has a mob history going back 30 years!

This would be a good book, no???

[Rick Myers]

28. My current sofa has a broken frame...

Donnie sat on it days before we moved... NO KIDDING!!!

[sandnsea]

15. Chamber of Horrors!

Sounds like our Chamber! I like that, gonna use it! They really do tend to have way too much power and ours is supported mostly by tourist tax dollars and then the Chamber won't even support all the tourist businesses equally. Plus they fight every new business that comes to our town in order to protect the status quo. They even get the cops to harrass businesses, hold up business licenses, all kinds of fun stuff! Pretty disgusting. A real Chamber of Horrors!

[Desertrose]

4. did I miss something....

(sorry to show my ignorance here)...but did Dean have a chance to actually VOTE on these issues as a governor...?

....and what is good about voting for something you don't like....?

...and just what the heck is moosh?
:shrug:

and yeah- thank heavens some dems are shooting from the hip- bout damn time....oh wait...there was ONE who has been from the beginning....think his name is Kucinich ......
:evilgrin:

peace
DR

[dsc]

5. evidently you did

Moosh is kind of a slang for equivocation. The "I voted for . . , refers to what people like Kerry and Gephardt did. So yeah you missed something.

[diamondsoul]

9. No offense to you or your post, but-

It might have been nice if Ryan had spoken clearly to begin with. I didn't get all that either. ;)

I do find it disconcerting when someone tosses in comments about people other than who they are supposed to be talking about. Dennis is doing more than just raising issues, and I'm disappointed that a colleague would indulge in marginalizing his candidacy.

Personally, I'd turn that around. Dean is raising issues, and that's a good thing. Dennis is raising issues and strongly proposing plans to deal with those issues.

[dsc]

10. I think they clipped his quote

to some extent (there is an elipse right before that). He is very young and new to the big leagues as well. He will be going places though.

[AP]

8. Wrong metaphor. People like "shoot[ing] from the hip"?

I think most people like a well-aimed, thought out shot. "Shoot from the hip" is a perjorative.

[NewJerseyDem]

11. Mascara lost

John Murtha beat Frank Mascara in a primary in Pennsylvania last year too.

[dsc]

12. Sorry

I thought I had them all. Was that incumbent v incumbent?

[NewJerseyDem]

16. Yeah

Republicans decided to try to screw the democrats by putting those two incumbents in the same district. Mascara never had a chance against the powerful Murtha. Hoeffel and Borski were also in the same district but Borski decided against running.

[NewJerseyDem]

30. Barcia lost as well

James Barcia of Michigan lost to Dale Kildee in another incumbent vs. incumbent battle due to republican redistricting. Barcia was a DINO anyway so at least we didn't lose the more liberal, even though he is pro-life, Kildee