Once And For All, A Plea For Fairness and Positivity From Kerry Supporters

[DrFunkenstein]

Dean supporters have a legitimate gripe (albeit a slightly hypocritical one). There is a distinct difference between forwarding legitimate questions about a given candidate, and snarky attacks for the sake of bashing.

It seems pointless at this point to figure out who is the chicken and who is the egg. The point is that ultimately bashing only hurts your own candidate. Rather than undermining the target of your attack, it only serves to undermine your own legitimacy when legitimate points are brought up. Even worse, in my opinion, you undermine the campaign you purport to support.

And by engaging in desperate searches for dirt, you reveal your own desperation. Before you post, you should ask yourself, "Does this sound desperate?" Hopefully, that'll serve to temper your posts and separate the proverbial wheat from the chaff.

I honestly believe that Dean has largely escaped scrutiny, and that there are issues to be raised about his tenure in Vermont (and perhaps his life in general). I am not saying that Dean should get a pass, only that you should think about the effect your post will have. Will it raise questions about the candidate or about yourself?

As a final suggestion, I also think that posts should be a readable length. After awhile my eyes glaze from posts that are too long, and I can only imagine what others feel.

That said about the negativity, I also believe that Kerry supporters should focus their energies on what Kerry can do, not what other candidates cannot. We have the benefit of having the best candidate in the race, but sometimes that seems to take a distant backseat.

I don't mean to sound preachy, but I do at times regret some of the more dubious posts by Kerry supporters (I don't exempt myself at all), and Dean supporters are right that we haven't been vocal enough against this.

Ok, now let's have a group hug.

:grouphug:

:pals:

Now, don't we all feel special?

<>

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Octafish]

2. Let's try to be positive...

... and accurate and true as we fight fire with fire.



And document it, too.

[KaraokeKarlton]

3. I make the same recommendation to Dean supporters

And vow from here on out to stop starting any gratuitous Kerry-bashing threads. I will also put those supporters from either camp who participate in this behavior on my ignore list. In fact, I think EVERYONE, regardless of who you support, should do this.

Anyone with me on this? If we ALL ignore the bad apples it will send a strong message that the behavior they are exhibiting is entirely unacceptable. Also, I apologize to Kerry supporters like the Funk for my recent bout of bashing. It was done to make a point, not because I bear any ill will towards your candidate.

[diamondsoul]

7. Sorry, KK, no ignore here unless I'm feeling-

an urge to sink to their level. Otherwise I'll continue to present my candidate's positions with grace, facts, and the conviction that this is my duty to him.

I will stick to the vow not to resort to bashing, as I continually try to do. :-)

[KaraokeKarlton]

12. How about not responding to them and letting their threads die?

If anyone who doesn't want to put these people on ignore agree not to give the the attention they so desperately want, I think that will have the same impact as putting them on ignore.

[Cha]

10. I don't like those threads that are started to intentionally bash

another candidate! But I am so sick of the gratuitious Dean Bashing from certain posters that I am not going to hold back when they jump on a Dean thread with their vile phlem!

[KaraokeKarlton]

13. Yes, that is very frustrating

And it always takes the threads off topic...which is the goal of those who try to disrput them. If we react, they win, and get things off topic.

[Nicholas_J]

28. Unfortunately you do not differntiate between valid quastions

ANd bashing...

Sorry for a disabled peson to ask , why did Dean cut a prescription drug benefit from the budget, and then threaten to veto a budget in which the senate restored it is not bashing, but asking a legitimate question of a candidate who in the past has made decisions that would have harmed me personally.

Sorry, such a question is not bashing.

When Dean supporters are confronted with such questions they either attack the person or come up with NON-ANSWERS.

O.K. lets do it again.

Medicaid cuts will affect thousands of Vermonters
January 23, 2002

By DAVID MACE

Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER — Tens of thousands of Vermonters would see their state health care benefits rolled back or cut off completely under Gov. Howard Dean’s proposed budget, which seeks to wring $16.5 million in savings from Medicaid.

In an effort to curb costs in a rapidly expanding part of the social services budget, Dean is proposing to require many people who got coverage under his expansions of Medicaid programs to pay for a greater share of their health care.

Medicaid is the state-run program that uses both state and federal money to provide benefits to the poor and disabled. Over the past several years Dean has expanded the programs by allowing participation by Vermonters with incomes higher than the federal guidelines.

Under the proposed budget, about 3,200 elderly or disabled Vermonters who get half the cost of long-term drugs paid for under a program called VScript Expanded would see their benefits disappear. This would save the state nearly $2.5 million. A single Vermonter with an annual income up to $19,332 is currently eligible.

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/41169.html


Senate adds money to budget, angers Dean
May 9, 2002

By ROSS SNEYD The Associated Press

MONTPELIER — Senators passed a 2003 state budget Wednesday that the governor made clear he would veto if it ever reached his desk.

Just hours after an angry Gov. Howard Dean leveled a series of charges about how irresponsible he believed the Senate, controlled by his fellow Democrats, was being, senators did precisely what he warned them not to do.

They restored money to a pharmaceutical assistance program that he had slated for elimination, redirected some money to cities and towns to help pay for education, and passed the budget by a 21-8 roll-call vote.

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/46513.html

O.K. explain...to someone like myself who is disabled and would rely on such a program, why should I support Deans decisions to cut such programs. Why should I not opppose someone who has in the past shown willngess to harm disabled people?

This is the kind of post for which I am accused frequently of bashing, and for which I am frequently attacked.

From the stance of a disabled person , justify Deans position.

[ProfessorPlum]

42. Way to get into the spirit of things n/t

.

[Nicholas_J]

47. For how many months

Have supports had to lsisten to "THEY SUPPOPRTED THE PATRIOT ACT" OR

"THEY VOTED FOR WAR (UNTRUE STATEMENT ,JUST DEANS OPINION MADE TRUE BY HIM SAYTING SO OVER AND OVER AGAIN)
Sorry...

I am glad to see the press begin to hound Dean about his shifting positions and what I like to call Maple Syrup and Waffles Platform.
I was eually glad to see Kucinich question his Health Care PLan openly.

He has had the chance to attack the media and the other candidates while they politely waited until the actual season traditionally begins, and I hope to see Dean licking his wounds very soon.

Dean started it, his supported carried it on. And I will not stop until I see every negative statement from a Dean supporter stop.

[sandnsea]

4. I try

I swear to god I try. But the illogic of the arguments gets on my very last nerve. This is a permanent apology for every nasty thing I have said and will say. I know I'm going to lose my temper, so why pretend otherwise. Kucinich supporters don't bother me near as badly, Dennis has a genuine position and he hasn't waivered. The supporters are fundamentally sincere in their positions and support and I really respect that. I just can't say the same thing for Dean supporters and this new 'evolving' bullshit is just more of the same. And I missed Kerry's MTP interview and the transcript isn't up; if he starts this 'evolving' crap, I'll drop him like a hot rock too.

So there you have it, you know what you're going to get from me.

[clar]

8. LOL

an apology for bashing in a bashing post.

And I wish you'd stop making blanket generalizations about Dean supporters.

[sandnsea]

22. Too bad I guess

It's not good to generalize, I know, but every Dean supporter I'm aware of exhibits these tendencies. It's my opinion of the matter. Trying to explain so people understand where I'm at on it. It's MY annoyance and irritation. MINE. I'm annoyed with the whole 'Howard Dean Rockstar Movement Policies Don't Matter He's Evolving' thing, may as well tell the truth about it.

[dsc]

11. Dorthy Parker must have a set for you

since she always wishes to sit next to those with bad things to say. It is pretty sad you couldn't even avoid calling Dean supporters names in a thread that was devoted to not doing so.

[sandnsea]

19. oh, this is the FIRST thread of its kind, lol

I tried something along this line weeks ago. No support at all, everybody ought to say what they want and all of that. Fine. Nobody wanted to be nice and they still won't. Why pretend.

And I didn't call anybody any names, simply said Dean supporters drive me nuts. They do. I'm being honest about what I think so everybody knows exactly where I stand on the matter and why. I know I lose my temper, so why pretend otherwise. At least I'm not in denial about the fact that I can be rude sometimes, unlike some other people who never see their remarks as snarky. Not necessarily you.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

23. I'm with you, sandnsea,

it's one thing to debate the issues - it's another to label every question, comment or link to a news article a 'bash' or 'attack'. I have no doubt that Dean would be better able to defend his positions than the majority of posters here and I also have no doubt that he would also be more willing to admit his own fallibility.

Many posters get very irate and upset when you stick to your points instead of chasing the strawmen they set up for you. I refuse to apologize for wanting to know the truth about the candidates and for questioning their records once elected. Just because some folks get upset when confronted with the facts about their candidate is no reason we should go along with their blind adulation.


On edit: btw, it would entirely inappropriate for me to bring up Dean's record on factory farming in a thread about taxes, just as it would be for a Dean supporter to bring up Kerry's IWR vote in the same thread. That's just sniping. But of course these are both valid topics of discussion in the right context.

[KaraokeKarlton]

39. What's really frustrating for me are the sneaky untruths

Like the ones that imply that Dean is bad for the elderly and disabled. That is a crock. Dean has consistently testified in Congress on behalf of the elderly and disabled to try to get them to change Medicaid rules to cover more people. You can find them just by googling "Howard Dean testiomy". Our Medicaid program here is different than anywhere else in the country because Bill Clinton granted Dean a waiver that allows us freedome to run it differently and still qualify for federal funding as all other states do. Anyone who is disabled in Vermont and can't work gets Medicaid automatically. Medicaid covers 100% of prescriptions. So, when someone claims Dean cut care for these individuals it's not true. Our social services in Vermont are great and although Dean has made some MINOR cuts at various times, the cuts were virtually impossible to notice. Dean also has worked VERY hard to move away from institutionalized care and has fiercely promoted home care for the elderly and disabled...because he doesn't think nursing homes are the best place for people who, with a little extra support, could be at home. Oh, and we already HAVE a prescription drug benefit for Vermont's elderly...thanks to Howard Dean. Some of the budget changes can be attributed to simply MOVING resources around to better serve the needs of this population of Vermonters.

Since I live in Vermont, I do know where Dean's flaws are...and health care issues is NOT one of them. He has been a strong advocate for getting health care for all Vermonters since the time he entered politics. If the criticism is valid, I don't mind talking about it at all. If it's a load of crap, I tend to say so.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

52. I absolutely agree that untruths should be challenged

although since I've never investigated nor posted about the issues you discuss I'm not sure why you bring them up in response to my post.

[KaraokeKarlton]

53. Easy explanation

I don't want to engage a certain individual, because giving attention to bad behavior is rewarding it, yet I find it imperative that I make sure the truth gets out...and you were, well...convenient. You could say that I "used" you. Do you feel all cheap and dirty now? ;)

[clar]

5. Thoughtful post

Thanks, Dr. Funk. I support HD, but I respect and admire JK, and I'll support him should he be the nominee. I've never said anything negative about him, except that I disagree with his vote, and I've couched that in respectful language. The attacks against Dr. Dean now make up a significant portion of the postings in politics and campaigns. So many of these posts are snarky and divisive. It's a real turn-off. I want to add to Dean supporters that trying to show Kerry supporters "how it feels", is equally divisive. None of this stuff reflects well on DU. It feeds the freeper perception that we eat our own.

[Egnever]

6. Sry but I find this extreamly amusing

Coming from you.

Would be great if this crap would stop but after watching it and defending against it from you and others for quite some time My patience is worn the gloves are off you asked for it you got it!

I will take a break from now till the next few days but after that if I have to answer even one useless post from the bashers on Dean all bets are off and its time to start trashing. Since this is obviously what this forum is for at this point.

The mods refuse to address it so its time to fight fire with fire.

Lets drag em all down what do you say?

Pathetic but it can no longer be left to go on one sided like it has.

Yesterday was the breaking point for me.

[KaraokeKarlton]

9. Funk isn't the one who was doing it...and I think he's sincere

He's not the one who is doing what has you upset. Please remember that.

[Egnever]

16. Sure he was

Shall i dig the links up for you? I have gone round and round with funk over petty crap about Dean. He Does the passive agresive schtick with the best of em!

But like i said above i will let it lie for another two days and see where it goes.

[KaraokeKarlton]

20. I think Funk is just reacting to the reactions of Dean supporters

I've never had any problems with him. I disagree with him plenty but I really view him as someone who has been sucked into the mess much in the way I was...and probably you have been, too.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

17. Funk isn't near the worst of them

but he has, at times, sunk to the low level he doesn't want to see anymore. (I understand he suffers from a hangover today, and his quiet apology was happily accepted). Most of us just come to defend our candidate when they are being smeared with ridiculous lies, and the threads deteriorate into childish name calling.

It's not bashing to a) point out differences between your candidate and another candidate, b) defend your candidate with facts or c) critique a candidate (i.e. the numerous threads on Kerry's MTP had some good and bad critiques). Those are healthy arguements that help us all understand all the candidates better. It's the people who post the same garbage over and over with no links or facts, or post from dubious sources, or revert to name calling that deter from true arguements that will not tear us apart, but will strengthen us.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

25. It's nice to be able to agree with you.

"It's the people who post the same garbage over and over with no links or facts, or post from dubious sources, or revert to name calling that deter from true arguements"

those are indeed the posts that lower the level of discourse.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

35. scary

that we agree :)

[DrFunkenstein]

26. I Don't Exempt Myself

It is easy to get sucked to the bottom of the pool. Which is why we need reminders from time to time. And although I have written to individual Kerry posters about the problem, after one or two comments I tended to have the "Well, I tried" attitude.

I still say that ultimately these things are not in my control, and I try to make it a point not to single out anyone by name, but I can at least get it on the table for discussion.

One of my big fears is that I will sound preachy and condescending to people, or worse that I am being hypocritical, but it is a real concern of mine and - again - I am hardly innocent of the occasional bash. While I can't say it will NEVER happen again, I can at least apologize for the times I have, and try to avoid it again in the future.

[DrFunkenstein]

15. You Are Sounding Like Sharon!

"Even one useless post?"

"Let's drag em all down?"

:nuke:

Give peace a chance, mah brutha!;-)

[Egnever]

18. You know what

Im gonna sound like your atom bomb soon.

We will see how it goes. I have gone rounds with you in the past over petty crap on Dean, and have refrained to this point from doing the same thing to your candidate up untill yesterday. But I broke yesterday I reached my limit. As popeye used to say I can stands so much but I cant stands no more.

At this point my attitude is screw it, let the feathers fly I have been silent long enough!

But i will give it a chance. We shall see where it goes. My hopes are not high.

[polpilot]

14. You're right Doc. Though fun these posts are sapping valuable energy

from the campaign. And they sometimes appear mean spirited. Someone even referred to me as knuckle head.

Dean '04...

[DrFunkenstein]

21. Knucklehead Is A Term Of Endearment

Its what I called my 4th graders when they were doing something bad.

Note: Not condescending! You have no idea how much respect I have for my students!

Note 2: I should put that in past tense, as I did not get my contract renewed. So, I'll have to substitute again until someone goes on leave or quits. Which seriously sucks because it is an ENORMOUS loss of salary and no benefits. Yay!

:cry: :nopity: :shrug: :freak: :argh: :)

The six stages of suck.

[polpilot]

30. O.K. Knucklehead!! I get it now.

Dean '04...

[RevolutionStartsNow]

36. Dr. Funk, you are a 4th Grade Teacher?

That is so cool.

Well not cool that you didn't get renewed, but I bet you are a great teacher. No wonder your posts are so much more intelligent than most of the nonsense here.

Come to California, we could use some good teachers in our elementary school.

[DrFunkenstein]

50. I've Worked With Kids All My Life

During college summers, I used to be recreation director of a playground in my hometown (the kind of industrial suburb New Jersey jokes are made of). I later went to grad school, but I don't think the academic life really suited me. People take themselves VERY seriously, which is hilarious since no one really pays them any attention. Kids are cooler. They're less full of crap.

So now I'm trapped between a Ph.D. program with no end in sight and a school system that pulled the rug from under me. Since I've come to complete impasse with the grad committee regarding my dissertation, I'll probably end up pulling out with just a Masters, and get my full teaching certification in elementary education instead (I'm "alternate route" now).

Who knows, maybe I'll teach at the college level again down the road. The actual teaching part is fun, but they usually want you to focus more on research that brings in money for the university. I do sometimes miss the intellectual rigor of the university, but teaching kids is much more emotionally satisfying. Therein lies the dilemma. Whether 'tis nobler to follow the head or the heart.

What a strangely confessional post. I probably should delete it, but what the hell. This will be the "secret origin of DrFunkenstein" post.

[KaraokeKarlton]

51. I know of the perfect place for you to work...if you lived in Vermont

A lot of the positions include a residence as well. If you'd ever consider relocating send me a PM and I'll tell you more. It's, in my opinion, the BEST school ever. It's private, but tuition is based on a family's income. It's a residential school as well, and the staff and kids are really like family. The staff and teachers are absolutely phenomenal.

[w4rma]

24. Thank you DrFunkenstein! This is a wonderful thread!

U.S. presidential candidates (L to R) former Governor Howard Dean (D-VT) chats with former senator from Illinois, Carol Mosely-Braun (D-IL) while Civil Rights activist Rev. Al Sharpton (D-NY) looks on, from the steps of the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, August 23, 2003. Thousands gathered to celebrate the 40th anniversary of the civil rights March on Washington where Martin Luther King delivered his 'I have a dream' speech. Busloads from Mississippi to New York were expected to turn out in the capital for the event organizers hoped would force Republican administration policy changes and get minorities out to vote in the 2004 presidential election. The washington Monument can be seen in the backgound. REUTETRS/Mannie Garcia
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?g=events/pl/063003howardean&a=&tmpl=sl&ns=&l=&e=130&t=&prev=131

[DrFunkenstein]

27. I'm So Glad I Never Met Her In Person

I'd never be able to resist that smile!

[DJcairo]

29. Well said DrK

I no doubt owe an apology for my sometimes agressive posts. It seemed to me that there were not enough vocal Kerry supporters and that this forum had turned into a giant Dean love fest. I'm sorry if my posts have reflected more on my own negativity about Dean and less on my positive feelings toward Kerry.

However, for the record, I will point out that many of my threads have been straightforward pro-Kerry posts, with information about a given topic or a link to an article. In every one of these threads there have been several Dean supporters, including one apparently running for Congress, who have attacked me personally. They have called my posts 'spam' when it was nothing more than a link to donate to Kerry's campaign. I have never implied someone does not have a right to speak on this forum as others have of me.

[AWD]

32. You came so close to sincerity

EarlG asked us both to cool it, but yet you have to pick on me....

Dr Funk did a great service by stretching out an olive branch, and you set fire to it.

[DJcairo]

33. I'm sorry you feel that way.

[w4rma]

34. "… feel that way …" (n/t)

[AWD]

37. At least tell the truth...

I have never implied someone does not have a right to speak on this forum as others have of me.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=29751#29771

DJcairo (168 posts) Sun Aug-31-03 03:38 PM
Response to Original message

3. Stop spamming us....please,


at least I was raising money for a real Dem candidate for pres.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

38. "I no doubt owe an apology for my sometimes agressive posts."

How about apologizing for the crap thread you just started? How about doing some research and having valid reasons to not like Dean before you spout your uninformed venom Dean's way. You are sounding like a mouse trapped in a corner, striking blindly at some invisible predator. You are part of the reason this thread was even started. How about adding to the debate, instead of spewing your childishness around this usually intelligent board.

[renie408]

46. Bitter much?

[KaraokeKarlton]

41. I suspect you only got grief like that

because something else you said ticked someone off. That's how this viscious cycle works. There are only a very, very few number of people here who seem hell bent to turn everything negative. It's really, really easy to get sucked into it, and then everyone ends up pissed off. You have been pretty rotten in some of your posts, which you admit and I appreciate that you can do that. Perhaps I was wrong about you and you've just gotten caught up in it all, too. Dean supporters do post a lot because we are so excited about our candidate and we tend to want everyone else to feel our excitement too. A lot of us are entirely new to politics, as well...so there's going to be a bit of a tendency to come across a little more eager than you might be used to. But you know what? That's a great thing because these new people are going to be loyal voters instead of people who just don't bother. Every candidate in every Democratic race in this country should really appreciate Dean for this, because thanks to all the people he has gotten energized and active...Democrats might just take back all of Washington in 2004. Even if someone doesn't agree with him on issues...they should at least recognize that he has been able to do what no one else in recent memory has...reaching the disaffected and disinterested.

We all have bad days and get annoyed with certain things...but we don't need to spread so much hatred and disrespect around. It's not good for any of us to do that.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

31. Thanks, Dr. Funk!

Once again, you are the voice of reason on this forum.

And with the coolest pictures...

[AWD]

40. We want the Funk...gotta have that Funk

Loud and clear, Doctor!

Thanks!

[JohnKleeb]

43. Thanks Doc

I am not for either of these two guys, being for Kucinich and defending each of these guys at least once I do agree. I hate it when I see Kerry or Dean attacked for dumb reasons. That said although I opposed the war and went to an anti war rally I prefer Kerry to Dean. Also Doc I love that picture of Kerry and Al Sharpton. I like Sharpton for his sharp wit and saying what should be said, I wish he got more respect.

[AWD]

44. Hey, shutup you damn Kucinich supporter!!!

Nobody said anything about not bashing DK fans, right???

Just kidding, John. Keep fighting!

[Cha]

45. LOL!

[JohnKleeb]

49. humor is the best meds

gonna miss being with you all for most my day.

[JohnKleeb]

48. lol you shut up now I sleep