Why is John Kerry using RNC talking points?

[sfecap]

From Meet the Press:

"If you're a $40,000 income earner, Howard Dean's going to raise your taxes more than 20 times." (Not true, incidentally...)

From the Republican National Committee webpage:

"The President’s Plan is Good for All Americans

A typical family of four earning $40,000 will see their income tax burden drop from $1,178 to $45, a 96% tax cut."

http://www.rnc.org/Issues/issues-economy.htm


Using RNC points to trash Howard Dean? Either Kerry is a desperate man, or he needs to fire his handlers. (Or both!)

[CoffeePlease1947]

1. Why do you keep attacking other democrats

I have not been in here very long, but I think you like to attack Democrats. Why do you do this? Kerry is not a Republican, he is Democrat. Can't you find anything positive about a Democrat, or something negative about a Republican for a change?

Mike

[Upfront]

3. After Watching Kerry

on MTP I am not so sure Kerry is a Democrat. Republican Lite at the best.

[sfecap]

4. Why does a Democrat use RNC talking points

to attack another Democrat?

That is the question.

Another might be why does a Democratic candidate vote to support *'s policies 72% of the time?



Stick around, you'll see lots of attacks on the candidate I support.

[Karmadillo]

12. Kerry has voted 94% of the time with Senator Kennedy on key votes

during his career. Many years, he votes with him 100% of the time on key votes. Of course, you know that from when you posted this junk over in General Discussion. I guess it's worth noting ButterflyBlood and dsc pointed out on the same thread Barbara Boxer voted with Bush 65% of the time and Wellstone did so around 60% (procedural votes, appointees, etc). Still, keep pretending Kerry's a Republican if it makes you feel you're doing something constructive.

http://wittysworld.com/john_kerry.htm

"Kerry is . . . a man who opposes the death penalty, wants to restrict access to guns and voted against the resolution approving the start of ground operations against Saddam Hussein in 1991 -- just what you would expect from Ted Kennedy's partner and Michael Dukakis's running mate . . . ." (David S. Broder, "Testing The '04 Waters," The Washington Post, June 5, 2002)

THE FACTS ABOUT SENATOR JOHN KERRY (D-MA)

KERRY: A NORTHEASTERN LIBERAL AND DUKAKIS'S LT. GOV. WHO VOTES LOCKSTEP WITH TED KENNEDY

On Key Votes, Kerry Voted 100% Of The Time With Senator Kennedy In 2001, 1999, 1998, 1993, 1992, 1989, 1988, 1987, 1986, and 1985. Over the course of his Senate career, Kerry has sided with Senator Kennedy 94% of the time for key votes.

more...

[JohnKleeb]

13. Thats great

I dont have him as my backup for no reason. :)

[sfecap]

18. From Project VoteSmart:

Roll Call Vote Analysis
Year Voting Participation Party Support Presidential Support
2002 96% 92% 72%
2001 98% 98% 65%
2000 95% 96% 97%
1999 99% 95% 93%

72% of the time to support the pResident. And let's not forget the Partiot Act and the IWR. But at least he spent some time on MTP telling us how nice a guy bush is. (Deos he still like him after he claimed bush lied to him?)

I frankly coulnd't care less about Boxer, she isn't running for the nomination.


www.vote-smart.org

[Karmadillo]

23. Wow! You've really outed Kerry (and Boxer and Wellstone). Here's

a link to vote-smart to see how liberal orgs rate Kerry. Maybe you can get them to change their ratings to reflect your enlightened reality.

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=S0421103&PHPSESSID=071b76e2024082fa09c102c3854cc11c

<edit>

Liberal
(Back to top)

2003 On the votes that the National Committee for an Effective Congress considered to be the most important in the first quarter of 2003, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 100 percent of the time.

2003 On the votes that the U.S. Public Interest Research Group considered to be the most important in 2003, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 95 percent of the time.

2002 On the votes that the U.S. Public Interest Research Group considered to be the most important in 2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 95 percent of the time.

2002 On the votes that the National Committee for an Effective Congress considered to be the most important in 2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 95 percent of the time.

2002 On the votes that the Americans for Democratic Action considered to be the most important in 2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 85 percent of the time.

2001-2002 On the votes that the Public Citizen's Congress Watch considered to be the most important in 2001-2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 85 percent of the time.

2001 On the votes that the National Committee for an Effective Congress considered to be the most important in 2001, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 96 percent of the time.

2001 On the votes that the U.S. Public Interest Research Group considered to be the most important in 2001, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 94 percent of the time.

2001 On the votes that the Americans for Democratic Action considered to be the most important in 2001, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 95 percent of the time.

2000 On the votes that the Americans for Democratic Action considered to be the most important in 2000, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 90 percent of the time.

1999-2000 On the votes that the Public Citizen's Congress Watch considered to be the most important in 1999-2000, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 83 percent of the time.

1999-2000 On the votes that the U.S. Public Interest Research Group considered to be the most important in 1999-2000, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 87 percent of the time.

lots more...

[sfecap]

32. And since Kerry is so interested in the middle class tax burden...

...let's see how the tax interest groups rate him:

Taxes


2002 On the votes that the Americans for Tax Reform considered to be the most important in 2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 10 percent of the time.

2002 According to the National Taxpayers Union, in 2002 Senator Kerry, on ALL votes dealing with spending, voted to reduce or not increase spending 18 percent of the time.

2001-2002 On the votes used to calculate its ratings, the Concord Coalition attaches more value to those votes it considers more important. For 2001-2002, the Concord Coalition gave Senator Kerry a rating of 65 percent.

2001-2002 On the votes that the National Tax Limitation Committee considered to be the most important in 2001-2002, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 3 percent of the time.

2001 According to the National Taxpayers Union, in 2001 Senator Kerry, on ALL votes dealing with spending, voted to reduce or not increase spending 7 percent of the time.

2001 On the votes that the Americans for Tax Reform considered to be the most important in 2001, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 5 percent of the time.

2001 On the votes that the Citizens Against Government Waste considered to be the most important in 2001, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 5 percent of the time.

2001 On the votes that the Taxpayers for Common Sense considered to be the most important in 2001, Senator Kerry voted their preferred position 27 percent of the time.

www.vote-smart.org

[Karmadillo]

34. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of the tax groups are conservative.

Most of them seem to like Trent Lott much better. I'm not sure how the information you posted supports your position that Kerry is really a Republican.

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=S0471103

Taxes
(Back to top)


2002 On the votes that the Americans for Tax Reform considered to be the most important in 2002, Senator Lott voted their preferred position 90 percent of the time.

2002 According to the National Taxpayers Union, in 2002 Senator Lott, on ALL votes dealing with spending, voted to reduce or not increase spending 69 percent of the time.

2001-2002 On the votes used to calculate its ratings, the Concord Coalition attaches more value to those votes it considers more important. For 2001-2002, the Concord Coalition gave Senator Lott a rating of 78 percent.

2001-2002 On the votes that the National Tax Limitation Committee considered to be the most important in 2001-2002, Senator Lott voted their preferred position 97 percent of the time.

2001 According to the National Taxpayers Union, in 2001 Senator Lott, on ALL votes dealing with spending, voted to reduce or not increase spending 81 percent of the time.

2001 On the votes that the Americans for Tax Reform considered to be the most important in 2001, Senator Lott voted their preferred position 95 percent of the time.

2001 On the votes that the Citizens Against Government Waste considered to be the most important in 2001, Senator Lott voted their preferred position 80 percent of the time.

2001 On the votes that the Taxpayers for Common Sense considered to be the most important in 2001, Senator Lott voted their preferred position 40 percent of the time.

2000 On the votes that the Americans for Tax Reform considered to be the most important in 2000, Senator Lott voted their preferred position 95 percent of the time.

2000 On the votes used to calculate its ratings, the Concord Coalition attaches more value to those votes it considers more important. For 2000, the Concord Coalition gave Senator Lott a rating of 20 percent.

2000 On the votes that the Taxpayers for Common Sense considered to be the most important in 2000, Senator Lott voted their preferred position 24 percent of the time.

2000 On the votes that the Citizens Against Government Waste considered to be the most important in 2000, Senator Lott voted their preferred position 79 percent of the time.

1999-2000 On the votes that the National Tax Limitation Committee considered to be the most important in 1999-2000, Senator Lott voted their preferred position 97 percent of the time.

1999 According to the National Taxpayers Union, in 1999 Senator Lott, on ALL votes dealing with spending, voted to reduce or not increase spending 74 percent of the time.

1999 On the votes used to calculate its ratings, the Concord Coalition attaches more value to those votes it considers more important. For 1999, the Concord Coalition gave Senator Lott a rating of 8 percent.

more...

[Nicholas_J]

53. Which gives Kerry

The worse ratings from conservatives of any of the candidates from their perspective.

Issues

On CSE Key Votes, Kerry voted with the ultraliberal Senator Edward Kennedy over 94% of the time over his Senate Career.

Taxes

John Kerry loves taxes, but not tax reform. His voting record over the past few years does not have a single vote for meaningful tax reform or tax relief. In the Clinton years he voted for the biggest tax increase in American history. In 1998 Kerry even voted against requiring a supermajority to raise taxes to ensure that it would continue to be easy to pursue his tax and spend agenda.

Like a typical big spender, Kerry voted no to across the board spending cuts in 1999, and in the same year against reducing all marginal rates by 10 percent. He has voted at least three times against reducing or eliminating the marriage penalty. In 2001 he voted to reduce the marriage penalty as a trade off for not cutting the marginal rates. That same year he voted to increase the standard deduction for college tuition and student loans, but at the cost of limiting the cut in the death tax to 53 percent. In fact, his record on taxes is so bad that his no vote against President Bush’s 2001 tax cut was his tenth vote against major tax relief.

http://www.cse.org/processor/printer.php?issue_id=1476

Thje ACU RAting of his support of conservative issues:

ACU Ratings for Senator Kerry:
Year 2002 20
Year 2001 4
Lifetime 6

2002 Congressional Vote Breakdown:


Democratic Stimulus and Spending Bill. HR 622 (Roll Call 13)
2002-02-06
The cloture motion would require a vote on an economic stimulus and spending bill introduced by Majority Leader Daschle. The bill would increase spending above the budget by providing $5 billion in assistance to states, allowing for a $300 rebate to taxpayers who did not earn them in 2001, extending unemployment benefits and giving a tax cut to certain businesses, but do nothing for overall tax rates. Although the bill received a 56-39 majority on 6 February 2002, it failed because it would waive the Congressional Budget Act spending limits, which required 60 votes. ACU opposed this massive and unfunded spending bill.
ACU opposed this bill.
This bill was: defeated
The vote was: 56-39

This Senator voted: In Opposition of ACU



Government Discrimination in Farm Regulation. S. 1731 (Roll Call 15)
0000-00-00
The amendment would discriminate against large cattle and dairy farms in obtaining environmental quality incentives to construct animal waste treatment facilities. The vote was 44-52, on 6 February 2002. ACU opposed the amendment.
ACU opposed this bill.
This bill was: defeated
The vote was: 44-52

This Senator voted: In Opposition of ACU



Re-Regulation of Agriculture. HR 2646 (Roll Call 30)
2002-02-13
The bill would reverse many of the free-market Freedom to Farm reforms and authorize $2 billion in direct federal subsidies to milk producers. ACU opposed this bill, which passed 58-40 on 13 February 2002.
ACU opposed this bill.
This bill was: passed
The vote was: 58-40

This Senator voted: In Opposition of ACU



State Flexibility to Control Voter Fraud. S. 565 (Roll Call 34)
2002-02-14
The amendment would allow state election officials to purge election lists every four years and to clean up voter lists by removing voters who have not voted in two or more consecutive federal elections, unless voters have notified registrars of their intent to remain registered. ACU supported this step against federal pre-emption and voter fraud. The amendment was defeated 40-55 on 14 February 2002.
ACU supported this bill.
This bill was: defeated
The vote was: 40-55

This Senator voted: In Opposition of ACU


A long list of all bills supported by the American Conservative Unions is here:

http://www.acuratings.com/acu.cgi?ACT=1&USER_ID=288&YEAR=2002


Scorecards
ADA ACLU AFS LCV CON ITIC NTU COC ACU NTLC CHC
1999 90 71 85 86 63 83 13 53 12 3 15

2000 95 - 100 100 45 - 11 53 0 - -


KEY

ADA – Americans for Democratic Action
ACLU – American Civil Liberties Union
AFS – American Federation of State County & Municipal Employees
LCV – League of Conservation Voters
CON – Concord Coalition
ITIC – Information Technology Industry Council


http://www.cse.org/informed/issues_template.php/1476.htm

Again, these rating make Kerry the most anti-conservative candidate running against Bush:
NTU – National Taxpayers Union
COC – Chamber of Commerce of the United States
ACU – American Conservative Union
NTLC – National Tax-Limitation Committee
CHC – Christian Coalition

In 2002 the ACU gave him a rating of ZERO, alloting NOR conservativism observable by their standards in John Kerry.

THe League of COnservative Voters record of a 100 percent is based in the fact that they give scores based on liberalism and voted Kerry 100 percent liberal.

[Nicholas_J]

45. Provide the EXACT LINK to the page

N/T


Deans regord as governor was a record of totally supporting the Republican Party there in almsot all percent of the legislation they proposed while he threatened to veto most democratic legislation...

But here is Dean himself talking about how much he has in common with the Republicans...


Even Dean acknowledged that his fiscal policy was the common ground he shared with the nine men and two women at the table, most of whom admitted to voting for Dean in the last election.

The group, known as "Republicans for Dean" represents the first organized GOP endorsement for Dean in any of his five campaigns...

Joining Bernhardt, Morse and Gilbert were former gubernatorial candidate Bernard Rome, former legislator Judy Rosenstrich and businessmen Toby Knox and Brian Harwood to announce the formation of the group.

"To have three former gubernatorial candidates to endorse me in this race means a great deal to me," Dean said, referring to Rome, Bernhardt and Hilton Wick, who was not at the news conference Thursday but who is on the committee.



http://www.rutlandherald.com/election2000/repbackdean.html


Dean kept his distance from his party’s liberals during his governorship.

"He seemed to take glee in attacking us at every opportunity and using us as a way to form alliances with more conservative elements," said former state Sen. Cheryl Rivers, a leader of the state Democrats’ liberal wing and former chairwoman of the powerful Senate Finance Committee.

http://premium1.fosters.com/2003/news/may%5F03/may%5F19/news/reg%5Fvt0519a.asp

ANd finally:


I know that a lot of you are going to vote for Dean -- he talks a good game; he can be charismatic and charming. But I'm warning you. This man will tell you what you want to hear, or at least tell you something that has some little kernel of something that you can interpret as support for the things that are important to you. But when the time comes to stand up and lead on the issue, to take on the money interests and backsliders in his own party, that stiff little spine will turn into a slinky.

If you vote for him, it's your job to stand behind him with a poker and keep him headed in the right direction. Don't give him any honeymoon period, either--keep the pressure on from the second you drop that ballot in the box. The minute you relax, he's going to turn right back into what he really is...a privileged, arrogant, middle of the road republican. Put your political energy into getting some truly progressive folks into the House and Senate, and into State legislatures around the country so that there will be more pressure from more directions. We need to get together our sophisticated progressive thinkers to develop policy ideas in every area, so that we're ready with real, well-thought out counter-proposals for the incremental changes a Dean administration might put forth. If you feel you must, support Dean, do--but then go do the work necessary to make real change.

Ron Jacobs, Donna Bister and Marc Estrin comprise the OLD NORTH END RAG collective. The RAG is an agitational community newspaper serving the Old North End of Burlington, Vermont. This neighborhood is a primarily working class section of Vermonts largest city that has a history of political activism


http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs08292003.html

So Kerrys votes with the president 72 percednt ot the time you must inclide votes on thingls like naming a post office for Harry Truman, or other such nonsense. What iss a clearer indicator is his votes on CRUCIAL issues and his votes WITH the democratic party and not against it.

Howard Dean decidedly voted against Democrtats most of the time in Vermont, and on budget issues ALL of the time

[Nicholas_J]

50. This is a cleverly deceptive post as...

More than 70 percent of those bills that Kerry Supported the president on are simple day to day bills passed by congress that are TOTALLY non-partisan in nature, such as authorizing the Social Security Department to give recipients the Cost Of Living calculated by the department for tha next year (Which is based on a standard formula and NOT subject to political debate) A 72 percent voting with the president record thus means that Kery only voted with the president on non partisan routing crap that simply gets passed by 100 percedt of the senate and house. Every year, most of the bills that go through congress are bills that have NO POLITICAL nature whatsover and are mere housekeing bills, becasue congress has to authorize various housekeeping and funding bills every year, as required by the Constitution, the Congress holds the purse strings, but the president has to sign off on the expenditures as well. and the president has to sign them.


This makes Kerry gives Kerry the second lowest level of supporting a sitting president in American History, only exceeded by Paul Weelstone.

[Nicholas_J]

49. Because most of the time

AS junior senator, Kerry actually writes all legislation Kennedy wants passed. Thats the way it works.

[Cha]

19. Because he got up there and Lied?! Just a wild guess!

Setting the record straight is Not "attacking other Dems"! Hello!

[KC21304]

2. Thanks so much for your concern for Kerry's campaign

but I think he can take care of himself. You just carry on supporting your candidate and if the two shall meet one day I believe Kerry will do just fine.

[sfecap]

5. You're quite welcome.

n/t

[quinnox]

6. The criticism of Dean's tax position is a fair one

and labeling it a RNC talking point doesn't deflect or negate it.

I am glad Kerry is finally taking off the gloves, it's about time.

[sfecap]

11. Fair? Really?

Let's see what he said...

"If you're a $40,000 income earner, Howard Dean's going to raise your taxes more than 20 times."

Is that true? Tell me, if you are single, with no dependants, and have an AGI of $40,000 dollars per year, will your tax bill increase 20 times?

Please get back to me on that one, OK? I really want to get straight on the fairness issue.

[ModerateMiddle]

26. How is it untrue

if it applies in the case of a married couple with two dependent children? It's a true statement, then.

[acerbic]

28. Some very very basic English and logic for you:

if it applies in the case of a married couple with two dependent children? It's a true statement, then.

The claim was that it applies to ALL $40,000 income earners:
"If you're a $40,000 income earner, Howard Dean's going to raise your taxes more than 20 times."

When the claim is "ALL" and the reality is "ONLY SOME", the claim is untrue.

[Cha]

17. You want to see gloves taken off? My money is on my candidate,

Dean!

[Nicholas_J]

48. Again true

If one goes back to looks at Deans record invoving taxes he also gave several tax cuts that favored the very wealthy and even repealed and income tax increase on them that was in place when he took office.

Lets look at his attitute toweards taxing the rich:

Dean reiterated his opposition to raising the income tax shortly after the Progressives unveiled their tax plan. Dean contends Vermont’s marginal income tax rate — that is, the top rate paid by those in the highest income brackets — already is too high.

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/41293.html

[ElephantHunter]

7. because...

Because the "Tax Cuts for the Rich" lie is finally being exposed.

I am FAR FROM rich. I got a tax cut. Democrats need to realize that their are MILLIONS just like me who got a tax cut, who are NOT rich, and are hearing the "Tax Cuts for the Rich" line as a BIG FAT LIE.

[AWD]

9. Nobody said it was ALL for the rich

..but it is heavily weighted towards the rich....try and deny that.

[Nicholas_J]

51. Not Heavily weighted

54 pecent went to the top 2 percent...

46 percent the bottom 98 percent, so it was a near eaula split between thr rich and non-rich... But there are considerably more non-rich.

Still taking away that 44 percent wil greatly damage the non-rich, while removing the portions that went to the rich will simply mean they might have to switch from beluga to sevruga caviar.

[searchingforlight]

21. Yes, you got money in the mail. Yes, you may have more in your paycheck

BUT are your property taxes higher? Are your schools having to compromise on education? Are the cost of your services going up? Is your police department fully staffed? Is your State close to bankrupcy? The list goes on. Look into the future. It is a bleak picture.

[Nicholas_J]

52. Correct...

But if the tax cuts are repealed, does this FORCE the states to then lower the prorty taxes immediately, or even at all?

This means that repealing the tax on the middle class will mean their federal taxes will got up, while their state taxes will still remain high, at least for a year or two,

[valniel]

8. The Truth Hurts!

The truth can be derived without talking points.
Do the math!!

Also, Kerry had many other observations critical of others. And, you are making a big mistake if you think that he is not an independent thinker

[sfecap]

15. OK, let's do the math!

Kerry said:

"If you're a $40,000 income earner, Howard Dean's going to raise your taxes more than 20 times."

Single wage earner with no dependants and 1 exemption, $40,000 AGI:

Tax bill:

Before the tax cut - $4986.00

After the tax cut - $4860.00

(Gee, I guess I just can't find that 20X increase...)

Let's try another one...

Married taxpayers with no children, 2 exemptions, $40,000 AGI:

Before tax cut - $3292.00

After tax cut - $2960.00

(Nope, not here, either...)

How about this?

Married, 1 child, 3 exemptions, $40,000 AGI:

Before the tax cut - $2235.00

After the tax cut - $1502.00

(Gosh, not here...)

You tell me...is his statement truthful?

Geez, must be that RNC math, huh?

[Cha]

20. Is that why he voted with that bush guy ..? Cause "he's an

independent thinker"?

[newsguyatl]

10. hey sfecap

kerry and jordan are desperate, very very desperate...

they're gonna pull out all stops now that they see they're running a losing campaign so far...

god, it must REALLY suck to go from the nominal FRONTRUNNER position to almost 20 points behind the 'little guy' right there in your own neighborhood! god, talk about embarrassing!

like i said in an earlier post, maybe kerry can catch up (though doubtful) ... but he certainly has a great example from which to copy... and if i'm not mistaken, he's already caught my drift...

[sfecap]

16. Desperate times call for desperate measures!

:-)

[w4rma]

14. Gephardt's my #2, now. Kerry drops down on my list. (n/t)

[DJcairo]

22. Kerry is folowwing the Clinton stragedy of raising high income rates

while keeping middle class taxes low. To suggest he is following RNC talking points is cynical.

[poskonig]

24. Kerry voted AGAINST these tax cuts.

Remember? To attack Dean on this is, to use your words, "cynical."

[Karmadillo]

25. Krugman on the Clinton tax increase on the rich

http://www.pkarchive.org/economy/ClintonTaxPlan.html

A big fight is looming over one of the key elements of Bill Clinton's economic program: higher income taxes for wealthy Americans. Families with taxable incomes above $ 140,000 currently pay a tax rate of 31 percent. The Clinton plan will raise that rate to 36 percent, and families with taxable income over $ 250,000 will pay 39.6 percent. To block these increases, the Republicans have wheeled out heavy intellectual artillery. Harvard's Martin Feldstein, a former Reagan adviser who fell out with his boss over federal budget deficit reduction, claims that new taxes on the rich will raise very little money and may even end up increasing the deficit.

Raising taxes on high incomes makes sense. During the 1980s, the incomes of the top 1 percent of families doubled in real terms while the incomes of middle-class households stagnated and the poor got poorer. The tax policies pursued by the Reagan and Bush administrations were not the main cause of the growing inequality in the United States, but they did favor the well-off. Now we face a huge budget deficit, much of it to pay interest on the debt run up under Reagan and Bush. It's not irrational to think that those who prospered most during the 1980s should pay a large share of the bills from that decade. It is also politically crucial for the Clinton administration to place as much of the new tax burden as possible on high-income families. After all, what is the alternative? Leaving aside the usual rhetoric about eliminating waste and fraud, the only serious option is to raise taxes or cut benefits for the middle class and poor. So while the president has called for a little bit of sacrifice from all Americans, he wants to concentrate the pain on people with high incomes. Indeed, he proudly declares that 70 percent of the taxes he proposes to raise will come from only 2 percent of the population.

Rich reaction. Nobody knows for sure how rich American families will react to Clinton's new tax initiatives. Think of a family that currently has a taxable income of $ 200,000. The Clinton program will raise the rate on the top $ 60,000 of that income from 31 to 36 percent; if the family doesn't change the way it works and saves, it will pay $ 3,000 in additional taxes. But suppose that the family decides, in the face of these higher taxes, to work a little less or to increase contributions to a tax-deferred retirement plan. If these steps reduced taxable income by $ 10,000, for example, the tax revenue will be $ 600 less than before.

Clinton's economic advisers have not released the assumptions and methodology behind their revenue estimates, but reports indicate that they assume no reduction in work effort and only a small amount of tax avoidance. In fact, it is possible that some high-income families may actually work harder because of higher taxes. Suppose a couple earning $ 200,000 a year has a $ 600,000 mortgage, two children in expensive colleges, large car payments and lavish tastes. To maintain this lifestyle, the couple might redouble their efforts in the workplace to compensate for the income lost to higher taxes.

more...

[sfecap]

30. Cynical? Tell that to your candidate...

...he's the one who said it.

Then go to the RNC web page. It's there almost verbatim.

[dsc]

37. he isn't following Clinton's

forumla Dean is. Clinton didn't cut middle class taxes.

[George_Bonanza]

27. It's funny how Dean is so holy now

When his boost early on came from him demonizing the rest of the Dems as "in bed with Bush" assholes. Now that the masses have sort of forgotten about that, he can sit back and act holier-than-thou while others do the inevitable thing of attacking the front-runner.

[JohnKleeb]

29. Its a good question George

I wonder about it too.

[sfecap]

31. If other cadidates wish to attack Dean...

...they ought to do it with truth.

Kerry is a liar, and he is a hypocrite. He voted against the very tax cut he now uses to attack Dean with.

If John Kerry was so concerned with the "middle class" why did he vote against a tax cut for them?

[DJcairo]

33. He voted aginst it because it contains cuts for the rich

However, Dems were successful in getting some tax relief for the poor and middle class despite the fact that they were not able to block the tax cuts for the rich. Kerry supported their efforts but voted against the final bill because of its tax cuts for the highest income brackets.

Dean is sieeking to repeal the entire thing which, with the economy where it is, could seriously hurt consumer spending. You don't ever suddenly riase the tax burden of a vital and sensitive economic class. The effects could be devastating. However, Dean does not have the perspective of an experienced leader to understand this. He only sees the short term political benefits of coming out against the whole thing without explaining the sublties in the legislation.

I think Dean is very vunerable on this. A similar thing happened with Bill Bradley, where he came out with a bold health care plan that failed to address money for medicare. Gore exploited the whole in his plan and the rest is history.

[sfecap]

35. How much are you paying in taxes, and how much did you save ?

Just curious...

Devastating impact? Please. The economy did just fine under the Clinton tax rates. The "tax cut" is less than six months old.

BTW, consumer spending is not driven by tax cuts. Consumer spending is driven by jobs and future outlook.

Not an experienced leader? LOL. 12 years as a Governor. Yep, no experience at all!

If people are given the choice between a tax cut or health insurance they'll go for the insurance. When people are given a choice between a tax cut and investment in infrastructure that creates jobs, guess what they'll take...when the "middle class" realizes they've been bullshitted, guess who they'll vote for?

[Nicholas_J]

54. Sorry

Even traditional Keynesian economics (demand side economics, the economics Of John Kenneth Galbraith and John Kennedy) Allow for tax cuts to the middle class as the BEST way to provide an immediate stimulas to a sluggish economy. Which was why Kennedy Dropped the top tax rate from 88 to 70 percent, but the distribution was weighted to the lower middle class in the amoung of money that the tax cuts offered.

A complete repeal of the tax cut would le like slamming the brakes on a maserati moving at 175 miles an hour and then having all of the ford escorts behind it into a massive pile up.

Get the fool driving the maserati off the road and keep the ford escort owners with enough money to keep gas in their cars, so that traffic does not grind to a compete.

KERRY IN DEPTH KERRY: A NORTHEASTERN LIBERAL AND DUKAKIS’S LT. GOV. WHO VOTES LOCKSTEP WITH TED KENNEDY

On Key Votes, Kerry Voted 100% Of The Time With Senator Kennedy In 2001, 1999, 1998, 1993, 1992, 1989, 1988, 1987, 1986, and 1985.

Over the course of his Senate career, Kerry has sided with Senator Kennedy 94% of the time for key votes. (Roll Call Key Votes, http://oncongress.cq.com,

December 2001)Kerry’s Lifetime Liberal Vote Rating From Americans For Democratic Action Is Five Points Higher Than That Of Fellow Massachusetts Liberal Ted Kennedy.

While Kennedy only rates an 88 lifetime average, Kerry has a lifetime average of 93.(Americans For Democratic Action Website, www.adaction.org, Accessed December 9, 2002) Kerry And Kennedy Had Exactly The Same Low Rating From The American Conservative Union.



http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:Q-0vyJOKmhYJ:www.ifcr.org/assets/election2004/WhoIsJohnKerry.pdf+%22Kerry%22+%22American+Conservative+Union%22+rating&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&client=REAL-tb

Kerry entire record as a liberal democrat is analysed here, by conservatives who rate him as being far more liberal than even Ted Kennedy.

A list of Key votes Kerry opposed :

KERRY’S KEY VOTES

107th Congress, 2001 Senate Votes Against The Bush Tax Cut: Kerry voted against a $1.35 trillion tax cut package to reduce income-tax rates, alleviate the “marriage penalty” and gradually repeal the estate tax. (H.R. 1836, Roll Call Vote #165: Adopted 62-38: R 50-0; D 12-38, May 23, 2001)
For Reducing Size Of The Tax Cut: Kerry voted to reduce Bush’s proposed tax cut ceiling by $448 billion over 10 years. (H. Con. Res. 83, Roll Call Vote #69: Adopted 53-47: R 4-46; D 49-1, April 4, 2001)

Against Ashcroft Nomination: Kerry voted against confirming John Ashcroft to be Attorney General. (Roll Call Vote #8: Confirmed 58-42: R 50-0; D 8-42, February 1, 2001)

106th Congress, 1999-2000 Senate Votes Against Genetic Privacy: Kerry voted against approving a GOP plan to restrict use of genetic information by health insurers. (Amendment To H.R. 4577, Roll Call Vote #165: Amendment Passed 58-40: R 55-0; D 3-40, June 29, 2000

) For Expanding Hate Crime Protections: Kerry voted to include gender, sexual orientation and disability in federal hate crime protections. (Amendment To S. 2549, Roll Call Vote #136: Amendment Passed 57-42: R 13-41; D 44-1, June 20, 2000)

Against Reducing Taxes: Kerry voted against reducing federal taxes by $792 billion over 10 years. (S. 1429, Roll Call Vote #247: Passed 57-43: R 53-2; D 4-41, July 30, 1999)

105th Congress, 1997-98 Senate Votes Against Banning Partial-Birth Abortion: Kerry voted against a ban on “partial-birth” abortions. (H.R. 1122, Roll Call Vote #277: Rejected 64-36: R 51-4; D 13-32, September 18, 1998)

Against Banning Cloning: Kerry voted against allowing vote to ban human cloning. (S. 1601, Roll Call Vote #10: Cloture Motion Rejected 42-54: R 42-12; D 0-42, February 11, 1998)

Against Educational Savings Accounts: Kerry voted against allowing a vote to create educational savings accounts. (H.R. 2646, Roll Call Vote #288: Cloture Motion Rejected 56-41: R 54-1; D 2-40, October 30, 1997)

Against Fiscally Responsible Budget: Kerry voted against approving a GOP budget to cut spending and taxes. (H. Con. Res. 84, Roll Call Vote #92: Adopted 78-22: R 41-14; D 37-8, May 23, 1997)

Against Balanced-Budget Amendment: Kerry voted against approving a balanced-budget constitutional amendment. (S.J. Res. 1, Roll Call Vote #24: Rejected 66-34: R 55-0; D 11-34, March 4, 1997)

104th Congress, 1995-96 Senate Votes Against Balancing The Budget: Kerry voted against a bipartisan plan to balance the budget in seven years. (S. Con. Res. 57, Roll Call Vote #150: Rejected 46-53: R 22-30; D 24-23, May 23, 1996)

Against Tort Reform: Kerry voted against allowing a vote to approve a cap on punitive damages in product liability cases. (H.R. 956, Roll Call Vote #152: Rejected 47-52: R 45-9; D 2-43, May 4, 1995)

103rd Congress, 1993-94 Senate Votes Against Spending Reductions: Kerry voted to kill an amendment to reduce budget spending by $94 billion. (H.R. 3759, Roll Call Vote #35: Motion To Table Adopted 65-31: R 23-19; D 42-12, February 9, 1994)

For The Largest Tax Increase In American History: Kerry voted to pass Clinton’s budget that raised taxes and cut spending. (H.R. 2264, Roll Call Vote #247: Adopted 51-50: R 0-44; D 50-6, With Vice President Gore Voting “Yea,” August 6, 1993)

102nd Congress, 1991-92 Senate Votes Against Stopping Missile Defense Spending Cuts: Kerry voted against a motion to kill an amendment that proposed deeper cuts in SDI spending. (S. 3114, Roll Call Vote #182: Motion To Table Rejected 43-49: R 34-5; D 9-44, August 7, 1992)

Against School Choice: Kerry voted against approving a school-choice pilot program. (S. 2, Roll Call Vote #5: Rejected 36-57: R 33-6; D 3-51, January 23, 1992)

Against Thomas Nomination: Kerry voted against confirming Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court. (Roll Call Vote #220: Confirmed 52-48: R 41-2; D 11-46, October 15, 1991)

For Defense Spending Reductions: Kerry voted to transfer $3.1 billion to domestic programs from Defense department accounts. (H.R. 2707, Roll Call Vote #182: Motion Rejected 28-69 R 3-39; D 25-30, September 10, 1991)

Against Persian Gulf War: Kerry voted against authorizing the use of force in the Persian Gulf. (S.J. Res. 2, Roll Call Vote #2: Passed 52-47: R 42-2; D 10-45, January 12, 1991)

101st Congress, 1989-90 Senate Votes Against Flag Burning Amendment: Kerry voted against a constitutional amendment on flag desecration. (S.J. Res. 332, Roll Call Vote #128: Rejected 58-42: R 38-7; D 20-35, June 26, 1990)

Against Parental Notification For Minors’ Abortions: Kerry voted to kill an amendment requiring parental notice for minors’ abortions. (H.R. 5257, Roll Call Vote #266: Motion To Table Rejected 48-48: R 8-34; D 40-14, October 12, 1990)

Against Considering A Capitol Gains Tax Cut: Kerry voted against allowing a vote on a capital gains tax cut. (H.R. 3628, Roll Call Vote #295: Motion To Table Rejected 51-47 (Needed 2/3 Majority): R 45-0; D 6-47, November 14, 1989)

100th Congress, 1987-88 Senate Votes Against Death Penalty For Drug-Related Murders: Kerry voted against approving the death penalty for drug-related murders. (S. 2455, Roll Call Vote #175: Passed 65-29: R 37-6; D 28-23, June 10, 1988)

Against Bork Nomination: Kerry voted against confirming Supreme Court Nominee Judge Robert H. Bork. (Roll Call Vote #348: Confirmation Rejected 42-58: R 40-6; D 2-52, October 23, 1987)

99th Congress, 1985-86 Senate Votes Against Rehnquist Nomination: Kerry voted against the confirmation of William Rehnquist to become the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. (Roll Call Vote #266: Confirmed 65-33: R 49-2; D 16-31, September 17, 1986)


http://www.crnc.org/resources/issues_detail.cfm?issuesID=13

[George_Bonanza]

46. DJ is right

Did John Kerry ever say that he wanted to keep Bush's tax model? No. Then how does him voting against it make him a hypocrite? Kerry opposed Bush's plan because he disagrees with about 90% of it. He likes about 10% of it but that's not enough to make up for the bad parts.

[Cocoa]

36. maybe that figure came from the Dems first

concern for $40,000 families doesn't strike me as a typical republican quality, more likely to me they co-opted it from the dems.

So maybe Kerry is using a dem talking point.

Just curious, did you come upon this up on your own, or did it originate elsewhere. It's ok if you did, but you should disclose if your own post itself is someone's talking points.

[sfecap]

38. The $40,000 figure was a RNC selling point for the tax cut.

http://www.rnc.org/Issues/issues-economy.htm

[DrFunkenstein]

39. I Use RNC Talking Points

Thanks to the RNC, I found out several things:

Kerry has been absolutely consistent on Iraq since 1997.

Note: Kerry's "misled" quote, taken out of context, actually referred to specific claims about the Niger yellowcake, and not the need to disarm Iraq.

http://www.gop.com/Newsroom/RNCResearch/research061903.htm

Kerry has a long record of slashing the bloated military budget:

Note: Kerry believes in a strong military, but that the money should be spent on personnel, veterans services, and programs that actually work.

http://www.gop.com/newsroom/rncresearch/research071803.htm

And the "Who Is John Kerry?" is a doozy. Seriously, read this stuff and tell me you're not impressed:

On Key Votes, Kerry Voted 100% Of The Time With Senator Kennedy In 2001, 1999, 1998, 1993, 1992, 1989, 1988, 1987, 1986, and 1985. Over the course of his Senate career, Kerry has sided with Senator Kennedy 94% of the time for key votes.

KERRY IS EXTREME ON ABORTION, SUPPORTING FEDERAL FUNDING AND PARTIAL-BIRTH ABORTIONS

Kerry Voted At Least Three Times Against Banning Partial-Birth Abortions.

Kerry Voted To Allow Federal Funding Of Abortions And To Provide Abortion Counseling In Federally-Funded Clinics.

Kerry Has Voted Against Requiring Parental Notification For Minors' Abortions.

While Kerry Earns A 0% Rating From The National Right To Life Committee, His National Abortion And Reproductive Rights League Rating Is Consistently 100%.

Kerry's Lifetime Liberal Vote Rating From Americans For Democratic Action Is Five Points Higher Than That Of Fellow Massachusetts Liberal Ted Kennedy. While Kennedy only rates an 88 lifetime average, Kerry has a lifetime average of 93.

Kerry And Kennedy Had Exactly The Same Low Rating From The American Conservative Union In Both 2001 (4%) And 2000 (12%). Kerry's lifetime rating from the ACU is a shockingly liberal 5%.

Kerry Is Against The Death Penalty. "I'm opposed to the death penalty in the criminal justice system because I think it's applied unfairly . . . ."

Kerry Is An Extreme Environmentalist Who Voted With The Liberal Activist Group, The League Of Conservation Voters, An Average Of 95% Of The Time In The Last Three Congresses.

Kerry Disagrees With Lieberman And Gephardt On Recognition Of Civil Unions. Kerry voted against the "Defense of Marriage Act," while Lieberman and Gephardt voted in favor of it.

Against Tort Reform: Kerry voted against allowing a vote to approve a cap on punitive damages in product liability cases.

Against Stopping Missile Defense Spending Cuts: Kerry voted against a motion to kill an amendment that proposed deeper cuts in SDI spending.

Against School Choice: Kerry voted against approving a school-choice pilot program.

Against Flag Burning Amendment: Kerry voted against a constitutional amendment on flag desecration.

Against Thomas Nomination: Kerry voted against confirming Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court.

Against Bork Nomination: Kerry voted against confirming Supreme Court Nominee Judge Robert H. Bork.

Against Rehnquist Nomination: Kerry voted against the confirmation of William Rehnquist to become the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

Against Ashcroft Nomination: Kerry voted against confirming John Ashcroft to be Attorney General.

For Defense Spending Reductions: Kerry voted to transfer $3.1 billion to domestic programs from Defense department accounts.

http://www.gop.com/Newsroom/RNCResearch/research012303.htm

[JohnKleeb]

40. Thanks doc funk theres a reason why I made this man my backup

[DrFunkenstein]

41. Did I Mention That Picture Is Fantastic?

<>

[JohnKleeb]

42. that one or this one

I really like Kerry. You do him a great service doc, I read that speech he said when Sheperd was murdered very statesmanly much like RFK's statement on MLK's death.

[DrFunkenstein]

43. I Meant Yours

I just thought I'd throw in a bonus pic from the AP.:)

[JohnKleeb]

47. Oh thank you

They changed the picture at www.kucinich.us
and I had my Kucinich picture in my sig from there so I got changed.

[Nicholas_J]

44. It is correct

For an income of 40 thousand for a single person, with NO deductions.

For an individual making 40,000 the savings from the last Bush tax cut alone would be approximately 400 dollars. If Dean repeals both cuts the persons returns at the same income bracket would be reduced to 20 dollars instead of 400 so Dean is technically increasing their taxes 20 times. You are talking familes Kerry is talking individuals.

[genius]

55. Is today Kerry bashing day?

Kerry's right about Dean. My family is middle class and we'll be hit by Dean's tax hike while the upper class will do quite well. In the AFL-CIO debate Dean refused to say whether he would re-institute the estate tax. This was really disappointing in view of his plans for taxing the middle class.

[George_Bonanza]

56. Sort of

Kerry's getting a wave of media attention, so that's a new unsettling thing.

[kang]

57. TNR's breakdown of Kerry's charge that Dean's raising taxes

Here's a link to TNR's analysis of Kerry's statement (many of you probably already read this) on "Meet the Press."

http://www.tnr.com/primary/