CA - Most voters oppose driver license law

[slackmaster]

"Nearly three in five California voters oppose the newly signed law that allows illegal immigrants to obtain driver licenses, according to a new Field Poll.

The nonpartisan statewide survey shows that 34 percent of the state's registered voters favor the controversial legislation signed into law Friday by Gov. Gray Davis while 59 percent oppose it."

Bad news for Governor Gray Davis, who just signed it into law. See the full copyrighted article at:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20030910-9999_1n10field.html

[RobertSeattle]

1. And most CA people are against illegal immigrants

...but it doesn't stop them from hiring them to do their dirty work or patronizing business that hire illegals.

The law was just recognizing the reality that illegals drive on Califnoria roads.

[slackmaster]

2. I posted it in this forum because of the bind the bill put Davis in

He was doomed to be damned as weak on immigration if he signed it and damned as anti-Hispanic if he vetoed it. Either position would have cost him votes from one constituency or another. The strong majority of Democrats in the state legislature should have anticipated that problem and not sent him the bill this year. They shafted Davis. Again.

[dfong63]

3. so why stop there?

The law was just recognizing the reality that illegals drive on Califnoria roads.

why stop there? the reality is, a lot of people commit burglary. let's acknowledge that fact by passing a law legalizing burglary. and let's not forget all the muggings, rapes, and murders that occur. shouldn't we legalize them too? in fact, why should we need laws at all? people just break them anyway.

duh. there is something very wrong with the logic of the law just signed by Davis.

a more appropriate way to acknowledge the reality of people driving without a license, would be to institute a program of stricter enforcement and penalties. this is badly needed anyway, because of all the former drunk drivers and reckless drivers who've had their licenses taken away, but who continue to drive.

the technology is there, to make licenses and cars, such that the latter will not start without the former being present. let's do it. CA can impose stricter air pollution limits on cars, so i don't see why CA couldn't also impose a new license technology. especially when the need is so clear.

[AP]

12. This is stupid. You should be embarrassed.

All California drivers, and all citizens are better off if there are more, tested, licensed, insured drivers operating with the law in CA.

[slackmaster]

19. I agree that illegals should be able to get *A* driver license

Just not the same kind citizens and legal resident aliens can get.

The same document would be just fine if it had SOME indication that the holder was not a citizen and not a resident alien.

All they'd have to do is put a little ballot box logo with a red circle and slash indicating that they are not eligible to vote. The same could be done for convicted felons and other people who are ineligible to vote or buy a firearm.

[AP]

22. Why care so much? If you're French and here legally, you get

the same drivers license as a citizen. Why don't you want to set them apart.

And you register to vote by mail, too, so what does the logo achieve?

Why don't you just make people where scarlet "I"s?

[slackmaster]

23. Legal resident aliens enjoy most of the same rights as citizens

French people don't have Social Security numbers. All I'm saying is there should be a way to distinguish between people here legally and people here ILlegally by either looking at or checking the computer records associated with a driver license. The present system lacks such a safeguard.

And you register to vote by mail, too, so what does the logo achieve?

Your mail-in registration is not valid until the ID you provide has been verified. If an illegal alien's ID is not somehow flagged as belonging to an illegal alien (and it is not), there is no way to prevent an illegal from registering to vote.

[AP]

25. Citizenship in the US is not a requirement to get a drivers license

so what your saying is that the DMV should confirm citizenship, and then make an electronic note which can be confirmed when the person registers to vote? And this should obviously apply to all non-citizens when they get drivers licenses.

But you know why the state doesn't use the DMV as the place to track citizenship? Because it would cost millions of dollars to catch 70 people probably.

[slackmaster]

27. I never said it was

Legal residency used to be a requirement for a driver license in California, now it is not.

A person who lives here legally can walk through the border from Mexico into the US with minimal delay. In the past a California Driver License plus answers to a few questions (e.g. "Who won the Civil War?") was accepted by the Border Patrol that a person walking from Tijuana to San Ysidro, CA was a US citizen. The change in the law has degraded the value of the California Driver License for that or any other purpose where a less than formal proof of residence was considered adequate for a transaction.

so what your saying is that the DMV should confirm citizenship, and then make an electronic note which can be confirmed when the person registers to vote? And this should obviously apply to all non-citizens when they get drivers licenses.

Here's the problem: Anyone, citizen or not, can LEGALLY obtain a personal Taxpayer Identification Number (TIN) from the Department of the Treasury. It's a business tax ID, not the same as a Social Security Number (which DOES require proof of citizenship) or a work or student visa (which constitutes proof of legal residency). The new law allows a person to use a TIN rather than an SSN to get a CA driver license. Of course anyone with a California Driver License might be on an expired visa or using a stolen SSN. That has always been the case.

Because there is no way to tell whether a business TIN belongs to a resident or a non-resident, the historically imperfect connection between having a California Driver License and being a legal Californa resident has been made even weaker. It's opened the doors to a VERY LARGE NUMBER of people to get the license, and surely many of them will do so. It complicates matters for anyone who used to assume that someone with a license was also a legal resident.

Illegal immigrants should be given driver licenses, but not ones that look exactly like mine and have no underlying computerized information to indicate that they are not even legal residents of the state.

[MercutioATC]

20. Don't you need an address to PUT on the license?

Wouldn't that be a very easy way for the INS to find illegal immigrants (or a reason for illegals to lie on a legal document)?

[slackmaster]

21. I take it you've never lived in California

The INS does not sweep residential neighborhoods or raid businesses any more. That practice ended decades ago.

There are estimated to be about 2 million people in the state illegally, mostly from Mexico and other Latin American countries but also a substantial number of Russians and people from all over Europe. And a handful of Ethiopians, Eritreans, etc.

At many places including a bank I visited this morning, handfuls or dozens of illegals hang out waiting for people to drive up and offer them day labor jobs. At the parking lot of my bank there were more men than could be crammed into the largest vans the INS has. I know of several apartment buildings completely filled with families of illegal immigrants. The slumlords who own them are the scum of the Earth and widely hated in those neighborhoods.

Enforcement is limited to the official border crossings, patrols along the fence from the beach in San Ysidro east to the twin towns of Tecate, and a few checkpoints along highways.

[MercutioATC]

24. Thanks for the education

I had no idea how it worked there. Here in Ohio, everybody commonly looks the other way when it comes to migrant agricultural labor (the biggest group of illegal aliens in Ohio, I think). When I worked for a Sheriff's Office here, we'd report them to INS if they were arrested for a crime, but even then, INS never followed up on it.

I figured that California would have a more streamlined process...

[DrFunkenstein]

4. How Many Presidential Candidates Endorsed This?

I may be mistaken, but I think a bunch of candidates backed this at last week's debate.

[slackmaster]

5. Watch the ones who did become suddenly silent on the issue

The smart ones won't back-pedal but they'll all get very tight-lipped about it.

[DrFunkenstein]

6. How Tightly Organized Is The Hispanic Vote?

Is this part of a national hispanic agenda, or do hispanics tend to vote more individually?

[slackmaster]

7. It's one of most poorly understood constituencies in the USA

Hispanic voters in California do not all vote the same way on any issue. Something like 35% are registered as Republicans. About 90% are Roman Catholics and many of them are deeply religious. My TexMex neighbors across the street are all strong Republicans and oppose support for illegal immigrants. They immigrated here legally.

Taking any strong position on social issues like immigration or abortion rights in this state is more likely to get half of the Hispanic voters pissed off at you rather than to create an unstoppable groundswell of support.

[AP]

13. Actually, watch them explain why the endorse it, and then watch the media

ignore what they say so it doesn't interfere their sucking of Arnold's cock.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

8. California is one state that...

I do not want to live in! They condemn the illegal immigrants for everything but love to pay them under the table WITHOUT TAXES! Hypocracy at it's finest!

[genius]

9. I guess this shows how out of touch the polls are.

I wonder if they bothered to interview the Latinos, who now outnumber the white non-Latinos in California and who strongly favor this new law.

[slackmaster]

10. A whole family of Latinos across the street from my house all oppose it

The couple who immigrated to the US legally in the late 1950s and all 10 or so of their descendents all say it's a bad idea because it blurs the distinction between people who are here legally and those who have bypassed the system.

Most of them are registered as Republicans. Do not make blanket assumptions about Latino voters in California.

BTW majorities of black and Asian voters in California oppose the new driver license law.

Here's a link to more detail direct from Field Research Corporation:

http://field.com/fieldpollonline/subscribers/RLS2089.pdf

Gray Davis must have crapped his pants when he read these results.

[AP]

14. They've really absorbed the Republican message that, if you got yours

your better off if you shut everyone else from the kingdom.

Why do we reward this behaviour? We're all better off when we stop putting up barriers to the least among us form contributing to society.

[slackmaster]

17. I asked my neighbors about just that

They're not opposed to immigration, in fact they want fewer restrictions and a streamline process to become a citizen. They oppose people who totally break the laws by immigrating illegally. There IS a right way to do it.

[AP]

11. It's 59 against and 41 for, and that's without any media debate on it

and with the media trying to turn it into a positive for Skakel-cousin, Arnold Schwarzenegger.

I watched a local CA TV story about this and they flashed the numbers on the screen before "editorializing" on it. When I saw the numbers, I thought, man that's a lot closer than you'd expect. Californians are generally good people. Then I listened to the commentary and it was all, "what was Davis thinking? This has blown up in his face? Was this a terrible political move? It might be pandering which totally backfires."

What the fuck. Why don't they just invite Michael Skakel's cousing into the studio and just suck his cock live on the air?

And today this has turned into 2/3s against it?

59 is 9 points from half and 7.6666 from 2/3rds. It isn't two-thirds. It's not even 3/5ths. Would it be so hard for a media whore to say "three-fifths". Perhaps "three-fifths" comes out sounding like "two-thirds" when you have Michael Skakel cousin's cock in your mouth.

(And, by the way, I have nothing against Skakel that I don't hold against any other murderer, but like someon pointed out at MWO, if Skakel was a "Kennedy Cousin" to the media, why isn't Arnold a "Skakel Cousin"?)

[slackmaster]

15. AP, your numbers are a little off

The Field results showed 59% overall against, 34% in favor, and 7% no opinion.

Groups with a majority in favor of it were people who support Bustamante as a replacement governor (63%), Latinos (59%) people opposed to the recall (54%), and Democrats (just barely - 52%).

[AP]

16. I'm just telling you what I remember seeing on TV last night.

I saw two numbers 59 and 41, and then they went into a long thing about how awful this is for Davis.

[slackmaster]

18. Look at Field's official full report

http://field.com/fieldpollonline/subscribers/RLS2089.pdf

[Demobrat]

26. As a person who lives in California, I don't mind if

illegal immigrants have drivers licenses, just so long as it means they have to have insurance too. I would much prefer to be hit by an illegal immigrant with insurance than once without, thanks. And if that's a financial burden, well, hey, welcome to America.

[slackmaster]

28. I hope your optimistic assessment is right

Historically when an illegal immigrant is involved in a car accident or anything else that carries significant financial liability they turn tail and head back to their home country. I've seen it happen many times personally.

I hope you are right, that they actually do get insurance.