AP Analysis: Dean Under Political Scrutiny

[Nicholas_J]

AP Analysis: Dean Under Political Scrutiny

Wednesday September 10, 2003 11:39 PM


EDITOR'S NOTE: - AP News Analysis

By RON FOURNIER

AP Political Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - Howard Dean is learning that his words count - and can count against him - as the Democratic presidential front-runner. From the Middle East to race, Social Security and campaign finance reform, the former Vermont governor is getting singed by nearly every hot-button issue he touches...


Rival campaigns also highlighted shifts in Dean's policies, including:

- His denial that he ever suggested raising the retirement age, though he has.

- His vow to attack any Democrat who opts out of the public finance system, only to consider leaving it himself.

- His softening of support for rolling back the embargo on Cuba.

Dean allies argue that any open-minded politician evolves on issues - or gets caught musing aloud about possible reversals, a habit Dean says he picked up as governor. ``Sometimes I think out loud when I shouldn't,'' he said in a recent interview.

But it is his casual - some would say reckless - use of language on issues demanding precision that has landed Dean in the hottest water.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-3132173,00.html

[OrAnarch]

1. yep...

Dean's slips, or moreso, his misintrepreted and twisted statements, out of context, may be his biggest danger in this race. In contrast to Kerry, where the worse thing he has going for him are his dubious supporters who spam boards slamming other democrats for being democrats.

[Rose Siding]

2. Excellent point!

A hearty welcome to you, OrAnarch :hi:

[w4rma]

3. No candidate is perfect

and, IMHO, one shouldn't con onesself into believing that.

I can list off a litiny of problems I have with every candidate.

I agree with Gov. Dean most of the time and I think that he is running the best Democratic campaign of any that I have read about in history books. I know his positions, including ones that I disagree with him on.

[Kat 333]

5. I do not dislike Kerry ...

but would have to disagree that the "worst thing he has going for him are his dubious supporters who spam boards slamming other democrats for being democrats".
It could, just as possibly, be his vote to allow Bush and his corrupt band of thieves to bomb the shit out of Iraq.
As a Senator it should have occurred to him (and any others that cast their vote giving him the permission to do this) that it would be virtually impossible for Iraq to have been a threat to the United States or anyone else. They were still living under horrid conditions caused by the prior attack under his father's administration.
At very least ... from the moment this "president" stole the election he had proved, beyond any reasonable doubt, that there was NO reason to trust him to this degree

[Kolesar]

17. Goddamn it! The IWR vote was a political trap, an unwinnable situation

Bush's adulation numbers were quite high one year ago. Remember, any reporter who reported against him would be "necklaced" (--Mike Wallace). I know that Kerry knew that Iraq was not a threat, because he got the same data that Nancy Pelosi got and she decided to vote against it. Kerry obviously voted for it because he feared that if things did not change, it would be a big problem for his presidential campaign (or Senate campaign).

Hindsight is clearly in use here. You and no one else knew that Bush would be skidding to oblivion by September 2003.

For the record, all the Dem senators up for relection voted yes, except Paul Wellstone.

I guess this is what I get for treading into one of those minefields known as a thread started by Nicholas_J.

[Nicholas_J]

26. It is so funny

I can post an article, from a major newspaper you guys view it as bashing and flame bait.

The problem is, you have no answers for Dean very apparant weaknesses.

You see, it does not matter if I editorialize or not, Make a small comment about the article or not, the fact is, that it is not the articles that are problematic, in the end, it is Dean who is problematic.

He has been caught lying during debates, misrepresenting other candidates and issues numerous times, having changed his stance half a dozen or more.

He has duped a lot of young people early on with his fire in the belly CRAP, but when it comes to debate he changes. He is chameleon like, and slippery. Dean fits every negative stereotype of the politician.

Admit it. It is not my posts that are booby-trapped, catching as many boobies as possible, It is Dean own campaign and the candidate who posesses the flaws that lead you into arguments about him that cannot be answered, because even his own supporters do not know who he is.

[renie408]

28. You have got yourself here

And it really irritates me. I really agree with a lot of the stuff you post and I really disagree with a lot of the responses you get, but you have done it to yourself.

[Nicholas_J]

59. I do not care about the attacks on myself.

As Gandhi said, if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.

If you do not stop answering questions about Deans record, even valid ones, in support of Edwards, you will be subject to unrelenting attacks from the Dean defense forces.

I started anti -Dean posts after defending one Edwards supporter and another person from relentless, abusive, filth filled , attacks.
they were women who were attacked , and I am still old fashioned enough to not not expose women to file fithy personal attacks and to defend thenm from such abuses. However, if it is any indication, many of those Dean supporters have been banned from DU, and I am still here because no matter what, I stay on message, stay on point and do not personally attack individuals. I will not resortb to personal attacks. Most Dean supporters ALWAYS do. This is beleive, is because their candidate is all gravy and no meat.

You may not like my stance, but you will become as much a victim of Dean supporters if you do not bow to their attacks, and simply praise Dean, and never question him.

When they claim they have "ANSWERED" my questions, the most they have done is do something like place a link to the current Vermont State Department of Taxation, showing the page as proof of something Dean is responsible for. The current conditions indicate nothing about Deans contributions. Right now, overtime laws still exist, ANWR is still safe, we still have Pell Grants, and Estrada is not a Federal Justice....

DOes this mean that Bush is responsible for these events.

Sorry, Deans supporters have never been able to provide one whit of evidence or answers to the things I have posted, all legitimate articles.


It does not matter if I simply post an article, with no commentary about Dean that is not positive about Dean, which if you look at thread I start, is almost Always the case. I post an article, and I will be attacked at any time for any reason.

I once posted a totally positive Dean article, and over 30 people attacked me without reading the article. It is fun to watch them make idiots of themselves and says a great Deal about many Deans supporters.

He wants to both run with the foxes, and hunt with the hounds.

Ask yourself Renie408, what is it about a candidate that attracts such types who will not respond with simple, legitimate counterpoint, but must always resort to personal attack.

[XanaDUer]

63. From what I have seen,

nicholas_j posts articles and links. He does not engage in personal attacks, name-calling, and I find it ironic that some at DU who call for his banning DO engage in this rule-breaking tactics.

Just because they do not agree with what he posts, he still has the right to do so. We have the right to scrutinize all the candidates, their positions and past records, etc.

I don't think he really gives a shit that they hate him, or whatever. DU is a political forum, not a popularity contest.

I have been here for about eight months, and have never seen him curse at anyone, or call them freepers, "Paid disruptors"...

And I have seen some weird crap here. One rabid Deanie who eventually got banned went on a tangent about she just knew anyone not for Dean was having "secret meetings" and trying to pull a Rovian coup. That was one of her last posts here. Actually, it was she who got me looking closer at Dean and his past record-ironically-she had the exact opposite effect on me than she probably hoped to have.

I really just wait and see if a pattern of rule-breaking or otherwise disruptive behavior comes from certain posters. Then if I see that it does, their message loses a lot of value to me. Nicholas_j just posts stuff, and from what I have seen as a researcher, the sources seem valid.

Just my two cents' worth.

[killbotfactory]

67. You haven't seen very much, then.

Every time I've paid attention to his posts he would compare Dean to hitler, or other dictators, and be generally insulting to anyone who would challenge his assertions.

[Kolesar]

34. NOT funny. I defend Kerry's vote, and you restart the "Dean thing"

By that, I mean your continuing campaign of assailing Howard Dean.
Now, I would like you to defend your response "it is so funny". Did you even read my post?

[ProfessorPlum]

76. No, he didn't

his post was a complete non-sequiteur. I'm not even sure what he was responding to, but it wasn't your post, which was pretty well thought-out, in my opinion.

But Nick "is so funny" a lot.

[Kat 333]

75. Ha ...

If Kerry did, as you contend, vote in favor of something he KNEW was not in the best interest of this country - that is no better (and maybe worse) than pleading ignorance.

There were many people who were adamantly against giving the squatter in the white house this authority - REMEMBER ???

So for you to assume that few, if any, people had the foresight to realize that "Bush would be skidding to oblivion by September 2003." is short sighted - at best

[Gman]

4. Once again, if Dean had well thought out policies he could

clearly articulate, this type scrutiny wouldn't be happening. It's obvious Dean has put little thought into policies. Talk about his "evolving" only enables Dean to continue to not think out these policies.

For me, it all started with the MTP interview a few months ago. He shouldn't get tripped up as easily as he does, but that apparently is how it is with Dean.

The danger is that he goes into the November election as the nominee without these thought out policies and gets creamed. It likely is already too late, though.

It's called political hardball. The presidential elections are the ultimate in hardball politics. It's not a game for the unprepared, nor is it a game for someone not fast on his/her feet, as Dean seems to be.

And I like Dean. I just can't support him because he's too squirrely.

[E_Zapata]

7. Dean trips up every time he speaks outside of a prepared stump speech

every single time.

[blm]

8. Gary Hart warned us that Dean lacked what it takes

on foreign policy last May. And he should know because he was someone Dean called for help.

Of course, Hart also said that Lieberman didn't have the foreign policy chops either.

Hart knows these men better than anyone here.

[w4rma]

9. Massive information dump on Gov. Howard Dean

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=43435&mesg_id=43435&page=

You are promoting totall bull, Gman. Above is a large list of his well thought out policies. It's obvious you haven't read any of them.

[helleborient]

16. That's just dumb...

Name one leading candidate for either party in the past 50 years who didn't face this scrutiny...

I thought this was an important line in the article left out of Nick's quote:

``It's what the field typically does to front-runners,'' Democratic strategist Paul Begala said. ``People attack you over every minute difference.''

[renie408]

27. But you gotta admit

that some people feed the scrutiny more than others. Yes, any front runner is going to bee gone over with a microscope. Its just that some of them stand up to it better than others. One of the first concerns I ever voiced about Dean was that I was unsure of his ability to run his mouth like he needs to to generate a lot of passion without putting his foot in it. Hey, I also worry about Kerry for the same thing. He has said some truly stupid things, too. The second I heard his 'regime change' comment, I thought, "This man is too stupid to make it all the way through a campaign." I know that some Kerry people are probably stroking out right now, but how insane is it to compare George Bush to Saddam Hussein when he is at the height of his polling numbers and on the eve of war??

[helleborient]

38. I agree...

Goodness knows, Bill Clinton fed the fire...

I was just trying to point out along with Paul Begala that this scrutiny is nothing unusual...and for candidates to mistakenly feed it is nothing unusual either.

Al Gore's somewhat confusing claims didn't help him...Bush's malapropisms didn't help him...Bill Clinton's "bimbo eruptions" didn't help him. Ronald Reagan falling asleep at meetings didn't help him.

Where's the perfect candidate??? I don't see one, and I haven't seen one in my lifetime...why should I expect perfection this time?

[renie408]

41. I will give you that one

But, I think that part of why this is a particular problem for Dean is his campaign selling him as a straight shooter. When he then makes statements he either cannot back up or that are just outright boo boos, he is going to get reamed worse than anybody else.

And while he is far from perfect, Edwards has been able to remain pretty careful in what he says. I think it probably comes from all that time spent in front of juries. But I am sure if he continues to gain interest, sooner or later he will step in it.

[helleborient]

45. If you've noticed...in politics, sometimes

Any press can be good press.

And I accept Dean will get attacked more strongly than anyone else partially because he is in the lead partially because he's feeling his way through his first national campaign.

It's possible that being a bit less measured and a bit more aggressive would get Edwards more attention...this particular issue about Dean's comments certainly has gotten a lot of press for him.

Lieberman and Kucinich got a lot of press for attacking Dean, too.

Dean got a lot of press and rose to frontrunner status on the back of attacking Bush.

[renie408]

52. I was thinking the same thing

About Edwards, that is. But it is such a fine line, don't you think? It can't be good for anybody for the Dems to go after each other like they tend to do. And honestly, it looks like he is doing just fine sticking to his own track and NOT attacking the others. The bad press they are generating...well, they are generating it. And he already goes after Bush pretty hard, so the only other people to go after are in his own party.

I might look like an idget for this, but I admire him for not attacking other members of his own party. Even when you read his comments about Dean, you see that they were not given unsolicited and that they were very careful. He doesn't really ATTACK Dean, he says that his comments were divisive and inaccurate.

The guy is smart. I am going to trust him to know how to sell himself.

[blm]

54. He got the press for attacking other Democrats

and the Democratic party. The media LOVED Dems being bashed and ran with the story.

[helleborient]

69. But...I thought previously you said...

The corporate media was annointing Howard Dean as the Democratic nominee...have you changed your mind? This media does not seem to be laudatory about Dean...and the Newsweek articles have never been.

[E_Zapata]

6. It is inexcusbable. Dean is creating issues that weren't there before.

Now a primary issue is: Do any democratic presidential candidate even care about racial equality? 24 hours ago, it was a given that indeed the dems across the board care about it. Not so sure today. Thank you howard. Thank you so much.

His "blunt" speaking approach and "thinking out loud" as he calls it is dividing the party.

Why would we want another diplomacy dunce in the white house? If we can even get to the white house?

I just want to tell Dean to "shut up, just shut up."

[w4rma]

10. Wasn't it Edwards that made that complaint in the press? (n/t)

[DemBones DemBones]

11. It was Dean who said on national television during the debate

" I'm the only white politician that ever talks about race in front of white audiences.''

He should have known that virtually all of his rivals preach racial equality on the campaign trail.

One of them, Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina, said he didn't know whether Dean intentionally misled the debate audience.

``It's impossible for me to know what's in his head,'' Edwards said. ``But I think he has to recognize what the impact of his words are.''

As the reporter said,

"Dean gives his rivals motivation when he gets caught in a major distortion."

Dean seems to have a desire to portray himself as "the only one" -- the "only anti-war candidate," the "only candidate offering universal health care," the "only white politician that ever talks about race in front of white audiences." But none of those are accurate characterizations of Dean.

He'd have less troubles if he'd stop trying to be the "only one." He can safely say he's the "only one to have been governor of a 98% white state" if he likes or "the only candidate who grew up on Park Avenue." Maybe he should just concentrate on getting his positions straight and stop the Roy Orbison--Herb Alpert mix AKA the "Only The Lonely Bull."

[DrFunkenstein]

12. He Also Said Edwards Didn't Speak Openly About His Vote

At least he apologized back then.

[renie408]

35. No

Edwards was asked point blank by a reporter what he thought of Dean's comments (probably because Edwards has always stressed racial issues in his speeches) and Edwards replied that he found the comments divisive and that they were untrue and a disservice to the other Democratic nominees. Which the comments were. Don't try to pin this on Edwards.

[blm]

15. That's how I feel.

Mr. blm is an artist and he said he gets the same feeling off Dean that he gets off Bush and it creeps him out.

Although I know he'll vote for Dean over Bush if he is the nominee.

[GreenArrow]

18. Mr. blm is one sharp cookie

which I say because he and I agree. :)

Dean strikes me as a mirror image of Bush: anger driven, smirking, self-righteous, hardheaded, falsely diplomatic when expedient, highly sensitive to criticism, like an elephant when it comes to remembering slights and injuries, a product of the same elitist upbringing, arrogant, prone to speaking with a certain "bluntness" which is mo doubt maddening to their respective handlers...they have both surprised people with their political adroitness, and so on.

I do think Dean is more intellectually curious, and more cosmopolitian in outlook, but I just don't trust the guy.

I'm not sure that I could vote for him. I am sure that if I were looking for a physician, he wouldn't be my choice.

[Nicholas_J]

21. Dean is about as intellectually curious

As a turnip.

I know that from personal anecdote from someone who was at med school with him.

He is a doctor, and like most doctors he has an extremely limited education, focused in ONE area.

Which is why he comes off as so dictatorial and angry when he makes his stump speeches, and keeps sticking his feet in his mouth when he is not.

And this is why President Dean would be a danger.

AS Governor, he was surrounded by yes men, and could NEVER be advised.

[helleborient]

30. John Kerry went to grad school AFTER failing initially in politics...

And then he went to Law School...isn't law school focused pretty narrowly on law?

It's not necessarily courses in foreign relations or courses in environmental law, just for a start.

Maybe we need to see college and grad school transcripts for all of the candidates, so you actually have some evidence to support your stupid attacks.

What stupid claptrap...

Give us the name of this shadow classmate of Dean's.

And thanks for the broadside against those in the medical profession...I have plenty of first hand experience to prove that stupidity wrong.

[Nicholas_J]

56. Their name

I will keep private, as it is business between them and me. They are a relative through marriage, and they are now one of the foremost researchers in their field and have actively developed cures for formerly incurable auto-immune illnesses. They do so at the same med school they went to with Howie.

[GreenArrow]

32. well, I was trying to say at least one positive thing about him,

but in comparison to Bush, I would still qualify him as more intelectually curious.

I work with Doctors and other medical professionals, and by and large, they are not an inspiring lot. By and large they tend to be very conservative and very arrogant. There are plenty of exceptions to this, however. The old cliche about "doctor knows best" really seems to apply to Dean--you are not going to tell him anything once he's made his mind up. That's just my observation and gut feeling, which, I know, doesn't count for squat. But I'll stick with it anyway, until Dean shows me something different.

[helleborient]

33. What does that mean???

More "intellectually curious"??

Do you follow them around seeing what magazines and books they read?

Or what movies or TV they watch?

Give us something specific and I'll trust your point of view...I don't even trust the point of view about Bush on this one.

[ProfessorPlum]

77. You must have heard that

right after you looked into his eyes and saw The Devil.

You know what, Nick? That after all your hard work at trying to transform him into a boogeyman, he is at the end of the day, just a human being like the rest of the candidates. Live with it.

[helleborient]

25. Hmmmm....

Anger driven...seems to describe many of us here

Smirking...I find it very hard to call Dean's broad smiles smirks. Bush never smiles like that.

Self-righteous...hmmm, I think to be a serious candidate you must have some of that - why else would you ever consider you should be President?

Hardheaded...I hope he is, DK definitely is - and I really admire that in him. It's sometimes called commitment.

Falsely diplomatic when expedient...not sure what you're talking about here, give us an example.

Highly sensitive to criticism...Yeah, that's one where I wish he wasn't quite so sensitive - let's see how sensitive you are to this critique...

Like an elephant when it comes to remembering slights and injuries...does this mean who knows who his supporters and enemies are?

A product of the same elitist upbringing...well, we've got a number of candidates there - the multi-millions of John Kerry comes to mind as well

Arrogant...They all seem to have a touch of this

Prone to speaking with a certain "bluntness"...I like straightforwardness not domination by handlers, so this is a plus to me

They have both surprised people with their political adroitness...Yep, the Jimmy Carter campaign did, Ronald Reagan did, and Bill Clinton did...and they won elections!

I'm sorry you don't trust him...I don't think any of the candidates but I have more trust in all of them than in Bush.

[GreenArrow]

44. A few responses

All of these are impressions on my part, areas in which I see similarities between GWB and HD. They may or may not be accurate, but that's how it looks from my perspective.

"Anger driven...seems to describe many of us here"

Anger, as they say, is a good servant and a bad master. One has to learn to sublimate it and direct it to positive ends. I believe that Both Bush and Dean are anger squashers; they supress thier anger until it comes out in a tantrum or rage. I'm prone to this myself, so I tend to recongnize it when I see it in others.

"Smirking...I find it very hard to call Dean's broad smiles smirks. Bush never smiles like that."

However you want to define it, it doesn't strike me as genuine.

"Self-righteous...hmmm, I think to be a serious candidate you must have some of that - why else would you ever consider you should be President?"

Maybe a certain level of self-righteousness is appropriate, but it can also be easily equated with egotism.

"Prone to speaking with a certain "bluntness"...I like straightforwardness not domination by handlers, so this is a plus to me"

Bush is often lauded or derided for his blunt statements, so the comparison is apt I think.


"Hardheaded...I hope he is, DK definitely is - and I really admire that in him. It's sometimes called commitment."

Yes, sometimes hard-headedness can be an asset, but it can be a real detriment too. Again, it's just my impression, but I don't see Dean as one who readily listens to the viewpoints of others once he's made his mind up.

"Arrogant...They all seem to have a touch of this"

Can't argue there, but some more than others.

[helleborient]

46. Thanks for engaging me in the discussion...

I appreciate that.

In terms of the smile, the reason why I find it genuine...and I did see Howard Dean in person, about 10 ft. away...is that it reminds me very much of a good friend of mine in college, and his smile was not duplicitous...it was a genuine expression of joy, enthusiasm, welcome, or whatever situation it was connected to.

[chimpymustgo]

29. Mr. blm has captured the essence of Howard Brush Dean.

I'd vote for him over Bush, but there are so very many similarities between the two. Especially the arrogance. Dean's more intellectually curious, I think, but suffers some of the same intellectual dishonesty.

Dean is proving to be politicially craven. I don't trust him, and I don't like him.

[DrFunkenstein]

13. Let's Bring Back A Golden Oldie - The "Misled" Quotes

Dean: Oh, well, I tend to believe the president. I think most Americans tends to believe the president. It turns out that what the president was saying and what his administration's saying wasn't so. We don't know why that is. So...

Russert: What did you think of Senator John Kerry's comments that President Bush misled the country.

Dean: Well, I thought it was Senator Bob Graham that said that and I agree with that. And Bob Graham is in a position to know. He's a senior senator on the Intelligence Committee and...

Russert: No, John Kerry said the president misled us and...

Dean: Well, I wasn't aware that Senator Kerry said it. I knew Senator Graham had said it in Iowa. But I believe that. I think we were misled.

http://www.deanrocks.com/page.cfm?p=1&c=9

---

''A bunch of the people who voted for this war are now saying, `Well, we were misled,''' said Dean. ''The fact is you can't afford to be misled if you are running for president of the United States.''

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/206/oped/Dean_won_t_let_Kerry_off_the_hook+.shtml

<>

[Duder]

22. Funny candidate quotes...

John Kerry:

"I think that $87 billion should not be just granted as a rubber check to this president."

"We deserve a president of the United States who will write laws for all Americans, not for campaign contributors."

[helleborient]

47. Hehe...

If the second quote is true...since when do Presidents write laws?

Members of Congress are required to submit the bills and claim authorship.

Oh well...like I've said elswehere...we can't expect perfection...the campaign road is tough with a lot of spotlight glare on every word.

[genius]

14. It's anyones guess what Dean will do once he's in office.

Yesterday there was a posting about Republicans for Dean. They may have a more accurate view of him than his Democratic supporters.

[Nicholas_J]

19. Dean as a Vermont Governor

RULED as a Conservative Democrat.

AS there are Progressive Republicans, there are conservative Democrats.

The Democratic Party in Vermant was Heavily weakened by Deans conservatism, as the rest of the party was relatively liberal, and so thousands of Dems moved into Vermont Progressive Party, which had a better showing in the Vermont 2000 elections that the Green Party had in the nationals. Ten Percent of the Vermont Progressive candidate, Anthony Pollina, voted for him, nearly costing Dean the election, Ruth Dwyer, the Republican, to only 38 percent of the vote. For Dean to have gotten the 50 percent nevessary to win, a lot of his support had to come from the Republican party, And did, as a brak off Republican group, Republicans for Dean set ups massive fund raising for Dean, as they viewed Dwyer as a wing nut Neo-Con and preferred Deans 60'ish conservatism.

Dean has accurately been described by Vermont and other Political Scientists as a Rockerfeller Republican:

Indeed, as Norman Solomon observes, there's a real disconnect between Dean's media image and his record.


"But the Democratic Leadership Council need not despair. Most of the nation's political journalists, including pro-Democrat pundits, insist that the party should not nominate someone too far 'left' -- which usually means anybody who's appreciably more progressive than the DLC. That bias helps to account for the frequent mislabeling of Howard Dean, the former Vermont governor who has risen to the top tier of contenders for the 2004 Democratic presidential nomination.
After Dean officially announced his campaign on June 23, some news stories identified him with the left. It's a case of mistaken identity. 'He's really a classic Rockefeller Republican -- a fiscal conservative and social liberal,' according to University of Vermont political scientist Garrison Nelson."

His Republican base in Vermont is clearly defined here:

"There are issues that I disagree with him on, but...never in the end have I ever had any question that the governor has good, sound fiscal management."

One of those issues was Act 60, a law that many Republicans have opposed. Several times during the news conference, the Republicans said they disagreed with some of Dean's policies but reiterated their support for his fiscal conservatism.

Even Dean acknowledged that his fiscal policy was the common ground he shared with the nine men and two women at the table, most of whom admitted to voting for Dean in the last election.

The group, known as "Republicans for Dean" represents the first organized GOP endorsement for Dean in any of his five campaigns.

http://www.rutlandherald.com/election2000/repbackdean.html

Deans support from Republicans came from heavy hitters, ex REpubican Governors and Ex Republican candidates for Governor.

Yet Demecrats abandonded the Democratic party at and alarming rate, his conservatism was blemed by other Vermont Dems:

Those who know Dean say he’s no classic liberal
By ROSS SNEYD

Associated Press Writer

MONTPELIER, Vt. (AP) — Howard Dean may be many things, say those who worked with him over nearly a dozen years as Vermont governor, but an elitist liberal is hardly one of them.

He’s actually a lot more moderate — many would say conservative — than the reputation he’s built during his campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination.

"Certainly the Democratic caucus was never 100 percent behind him and where there were differences, it was around how progressive or how moderate he was," Chard said.

Rivers blames Dean for helping a third political party to flourish in Vermont that many say siphons votes from Democrats. "The Progressive Party gained some momentum during his years as governor because he was so conservative," Rivers said, although she said she still may support Dean for president

http://premium1.fosters.com/2003/news/may%5F03/may%5F19/news/reg%5Fvt0519a.asp

As a matter of fact, Dean so weakened the party, that in the last election for Lieutenant Governor, the Progressives Took almost 30 percent of the vote. Vermont now has one of the largest third parties in the nation. This is not good for Dems, as this party is a progressive/liberal party, which means that so the dems are so divided that Republicans will rule the state for the next century.

[Larkspur]

23. Anyone to the right of anarchist is conservative to Nick

Dean is a fiscal conservative and a social liberal, like a lot of Americans.

[Nicholas_J]

55. And the swing vote

ANd southern democrats are just the opposite...

Fiscally LIBERAL and Socially Conservative.

It is the centrist and conservative Democrats who have done what Dean clams the party has become. Too concilaitory to the right.

Deans has located the problem, and pointed it out. however, Dean is, has been and will be more of a part of the problem than any of the other canddiate.

That is Deans cravenness in all its glory.

Dena has socked you in by telling you what you are all angry about, has told you enough of what you want to hear for you to beleive he is actually on your side, and is going to SLAM you by betraying EVERY statement that he made whole campaigning. This is Deans history, his entire history, his most noticeable and consistant political trait.

His support consists orf a lot of people WHO NEVER votesd and have not been part of the process he is leading those ignorant of what he is.

[Kolesar]

31. This part (of the Fosters/Citizens essay)

We report, you decide

> That mix of positions is vintage Dean and the reason it’s so difficult to pin him into a category, said Middlebury’s Davis.

"You can’t put a one-word label on it," Davis said. "On social issues, he’s libertarian — civil unions, abortion, things like that. On economic issues, he’s a fiscal conservative. Deficits matter a lot to him. ... He believes in an internationalist and generally noninterventionist foreign policy. He believes the state has a very important role in the delivery of health care. What I would say is all those things put together place him somewhat left of center. But he’s no liberal."

[He loved Big Brother]

74. I don't mind factual criticism of Dean

I support him wholeheartedly at the point in time. But I highly disagree that Republicans have a more accurate assessment. I hang out on a board with "liberals" and "conservatives", and most of them are still saying that the Dem's "only hope" would be Lieberman.

They obviously don't get out much...or read a whole lot.

[Larkspur]

20. The scrutiny is a compliment as well as a curse

Dean is the frontrunner so of course his words will be scrutinized more than the back of the pack.

Dean is handling it fine. I really liked his reply to Lieberman on CNN today. That is what is needed.

His rebuttal to Edwards is right on. Dean has been saying that he talks to whites about race issues for a long time.

[jos]

24. Yes, this comes with the territory

Every frontrunner has his "baptism of fire," so to speak. Inconsistent remarks, potential waffles, gaffes, they're all part of the media scrutiny. Every candidate will get singed. The trick is not to get burned.

[Kolesar]

37. Remember folks, DU is not the real world, either

The parrys and blocks that happen here do not settle anything in the real world of politics. What ever gains or losses one takes here is transparent to the rest of America.

[chimpymustgo]

36. His REBUTTAL to Edwards ought to be an apology, Larkspur.

Dean flat out LIED. He is NOT the only white person talking about white audiences about race, and he KNOWS it. Civil rights and race relations is a CENTERPIECE of Edwards' campaign. It is a big part of Kerry's and Gephardt's too.

Dean is getting out of control. Is this some kind of megolomania?

[Kolesar]

39. "Dean is getting out of control. Is this some kind of megolomania?"

Let's hope he doesn't team up with Godzilla and tear some buildings down, that would be a horror!

[LuminousX]

65. Thank you

You gave me a much needed laugh!

[helleborient]

40. I agree to a point...

And that bothers me on the issue...

But if this is proof of megalomania, we've got a lot of other megalomaniacs running around.

Do you honestly think there was not an iota of political expediency in the votes by Edwards and Kerry in support of Bush on the war in Iraq??

Do you think there was not any lying going on in Bill Clinton's talk about Gennifer Flowers, etc.?

Carol Mosley Braun has some pretty shady things to explain in her past with political supporters and trips to Nigeria (I know some of this..she was my senator)

These people all have a tendency to stretch the truth...it's politics...it's been that way for a long, long time.

[Larkspur]

48. Dean has been very specific and passionate at his rallies to support

civil rights and affirmative action and attack Bush's use of race-baiting code words, like "quota", especially in front of his largely white crowds.

The others have not been as explicit in front of white groups in this regard. Yes, they may use language to support minority rights in front of whites, but they don't tend to be explicit about it nor as passionate about it as Dean has.

[chimpymustgo]

49. Larkspur, that is flat out WRONG. If you are ignorant of what others

are saying in their campaigns, please try to get better informed.

NO ONE is more passionate in talking about race than John Edwards. He grew up with this, he experienced it; it is not some intellectual exercise with him. And the talks about it in New Hampshire, in Iowa - EVERYWHERE.

And Howard Brush Dean knows this. It's a flat out, opportunitistic LIE for him to have said that.

[helleborient]

53. Wow...just after I read the lauding for John Edwards avoiding nastiness...

Apparently some of his supporters do not follow his lead.

But I will continue to refer to John Edwards by his name with no name-calling.

[chimpymustgo]

58. It's nasty to point out someone's lies?

Edwards does avoid nastiness, and that's why I like him. But I don't like liars.

[helleborient]

60. And I don't like name-calling...

And consider that nasty campaigning...

Although probably in the minority here, I appreciated Dennis Kucinich's principled stance that Bush should not be called "Chimpy"

It seems like playground politics to me...and a sideways swipe with no support whatsoever.

Please don't complain if someone starts calling John Edwards names.

[mbali]

62. Please check your facts

That is simply not true, regardless how many times Dean supporters say it. The other candidates are indeed talking about this issue, in depth, to white audiences. Perhaps you just aren't paying attention.

I have already posted numerous examples of John Edwards eloquent discussions on this topic. You can say what you want about Edwards, but claiming that he is not passionately and explicitly talking about race to white audiences is simply not true.

[Kolesar]

42. I just spent 10 minutes searching your threads, Nicholas-J

Characteristically, you chime in with slightly-off-topic text cut and pasted from other articles found online. Typically, you distract from the real theme of the thread. As I already wrote in this thread, you don't even read the other posts before adding your "point of view". You seem to have a one-man mission to discredit Howard Dean in this tiny realm of the few hundred regular readers of the Democratic Underground.

Your posts are prime example of what William Pitt was referring to when he said that the DU is turning into a sewer.

Do you have any last comments before I put you on "Ignore" forever?

[MercutioATC]

50. It's NOT a "one-man mission", SpikeTrees....

Didn't you read the post where he claims to be part of some shadowy group of 8 or 10 people who have convinced over 10,000 people to switch their support from Dean to Kerry?

[Kolesar]

51. "shadowy group" -- too funny

I needed a laugh. I would have missed that had I put N_J on ignore already.

[Nicholas_J]

57. There are many of us on DU as well

Even the percentages of people on DU who would not vote for Dean if nominated as a total of the number of DU members, would cost Dean the election.

[helleborient]

61. A portion of 31,000 votes?

Most DU'ers say they will vote for whomever the candidate is...so I'm presuming you're saying about 5-6,000 votes maybe is going to turn the next election? And those votes scattered all over the country...

[Nicholas_J]

68. It is reflective

Of things that occur outside of DU.

As I said, there are a nmber of people all over, who have the exact same tack on Dean than I have. Dean, IF nominated will lose, as Dean has irritated more Democrats who are NOT NEW TO THE PROCESS, easily enough to counterbalance those hew has brought into it.

[helleborient]

70. I wish we were truly reflective of the outside world...

What a great world it would be, and Bush would certainly not be President.

[Nicholas_J]

71. What the reflection is

Is that Dean is disliked enough among a large enough group of demcrats, as he was in Vermont during his final run for office, that he will cause a large enough number of Dems to sit out the election, and let him lose. It has happened several times in the past.

You see, Bush is going to present him as a far left candidate, and there s an awful lot in the press to make that title stick, and others like myself, see him as too conservative, and figure why bother.

Dean has stated so many differnt things such as that he totally supports Bush' Middle East policy (Deake University, Feb 2003)

I cannot leave the subject of terrorism without bringing up a subject President Bush unaccountably neglected to bring up during his recent State of the Union address - and that is the need to end the seemingly endless cycle of violence in the Middle East.

Here, I do not differ with the President's stated policy; I just wish he would actually apply it. Since taking office, the Administration has been disengaged from the Middle East, then engaged, and then disengaged once more. This is another example of the President trying to distance himself from President Clinton, even though the Clinton Administration's approach reflected decades of bipartisan support for a comprehensive Middle East peace.

http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/dean021703sp.html




His primary fiscal advisors are extremely conservative Wall Street Stock Brokers and Inventment Bankers "Have been ever since he became Governor and Harlan Sylvester was his main finanacial advisor)

To the dismay of liberals in the Legislature who wanted to expand social and environmental programs, Dr. Dean and his chief economic adviser, Harlan Sylvester, a conservative stockbroker and investment banker, stuck with the Snelling budget-cutting plan. Helped by a booming economy, the state's finances improved sharply. Dr. Dean lowered income tax rates by 30 percent and put away millions in a rainy day fund. Vermont's bond rating became the highest in the Northeast.

http://www.northernnevadafordean.com/Defying%20Labels%20Left%20or%20Right,%20Dean's%20'04%20Run%20Makes%20Gains.htm

raising a state or city's bond rating many have a little to do with the well being of the people in the state, but a lot of meaning for the the very wealthy.

There is little to differentiate Dean's conservatism from Bush's.
Deans philosophy has always been "Business First" and that what is good for Businsess is good for government. Thats what we have had several years of already.

The State Auditor of Vermont verified this as well:

Though Dean tries to give the impression that he is for the average man, Elizabeth Ready, the liberal Democrat state auditor and a regular Dean adversary when she served in the Legislature, makes it clear that "his top advisors were all money people, brokers and bankers."

http://www.hermes-press.com/HDean/dean_republican.htm

This same article states something I have known about Deans claims regarding health care in Vermont for years:

Dean's loudest claim of executive experience is in providing "free" health care to Vermont's 613,000 citizens while simultaneously balancing the state budget. As of 1998, Vermont had the third highest percentage of Medicaid recipients in America. In other words, Vermont's so-called state-provided health care comes primarily from federal taxpayers. Dean is taking credit for state-provided health care when, in fact, most of this is funded by Washington. This kind of supposed health care system has no application on the national level.


http://www.hermes-press.com/HDean/dean_republican.htm


The fact is that a Dean nomination will simply be a repeat of 1972.
Millions of Democrats simply stayed at home rather than vote for a candidate who camapigned in a very similar fashion to Dean, attacking the DLC and other candidates and his Bush-Lite line anad lifting of Wellstones "Democratic Wing" speech

There are literally millions of people who will decide to stay in and sleep rather than vote for Dean in November 2004.

This happened in Novemeber of 1972 where the Dem who attacked his own lost by 18 million votes.

A Dean nomination will likely result in similar losses.

Our way of letting the powers that be know not to go for a flash in the pan, but offer a candidate who is loyal to the party, and does not attack its members, and especially one who is so shifty.

[MercutioATC]

66. I know of 3 or 4 of you. That's .127% of the DU membership.

I'd be more worried about people contracting typhoid fever on the way to the polls.

[VermontDem2004]

43. Thanks for the link

the article is really good.

Dean allies argue that any open-minded politician evolves on issues - or gets caught musing aloud about possible reversals, a habit Dean says he picked up as governor. ``Sometimes I think out loud when I shouldn't,'' he said in a recent interview.

But it is his casual - some would say reckless - use of language on issues demanding precision that has landed Dean in the hottest water.

In Santa Fe, N.M., for an evening rally before last week's debate, Dean was asked by a Democratic activist about the Middle East.

``I don't believe stopping the terror has to be a prerequisite for talking, you always talk,'' Dean replied. ``I don't find it convenient to blame people. Nobody should have violence, ever. But they do, and it's not our place to take sides.''

He added, ``We all know that enormous numbers of the settlements that are there are going to have to come out.''

It was not, by any stretch, an anti-Israel position. But his use of colloquial terms - ``enormous numbers'' of settlement that ``have to come out'' - was a stark contrast to measured replies most politicians give, and was at one point inconsistent with Dean's long-held position.

Dean has repeatedly said the first step toward peace is a secure, terror-free Israel and true negotiations cannot begin until then. Aides couldn't explain why he seemed to send the opposite signal in New Mexico.

[killbotfactory]

64. The corporate media just LOVES Dean!

How many times can the press predict the demise of Dean?
What is this, number 8 or so?
Nobody knows him! DOOM!
His opposition to the war will sink him! DOOM!
He changed positions slightly on something over the years! DOOM!
He can't raise enough money! DOOM!
He's a hot head! DOOM!
He apologizes for misstatements instead of pretending he wasn't wrong! DOOM!
His MTP appearance will kill his candidacy! DOOM!
And now this.

Keep 'em coming.

[valniel]

72. It would be a lot easier

to say “Sorry, I was wrong" in stead of following in Bush's footsteps, taking months to acknowledge that he ultimately was responsible for the 16 infamous words in the "State of the Union" speech.

[polpilot]

73. Dean's publicity equals better #'s every day since Oct. '02. People are

excited about a Dean presidency and his #'s reflect this excitement every day. Dean-100.00 Naysayers 0.00

Dean '04....