"SOFT LANDING" CRASH-LANDS ON VERMONT BUSINESSES

[Nicholas_J]

MOre of Deans protection of the rich:

"SOFT LANDING" CRASH-LANDS ON VERMONT BUSINESSES

On March 2nd, in its headlong rush to pass the "Technical Corrections" bill in time for Town Meeting, the Vermont Legislature suddenly added a provision that would hit just 110 businesses with over $1.3 million in additional taxes. Governor Howard Dean called the selective taxation "a retroactive attack on the ski industry and businesses in the so-called gold towns" (Rutland Herald, 3/12/98). The new taxes were added to the technical corrections bill to accommodate Senator Elizabeth Ready, who had stalled the bill in the Senate Appropriations Committee. Ready said she would not support the so-called "soft landing" provisions of H.577 because wealthy taxpayers would have their tax increases capped at 40% in FY99; Ready wanted more. To win her vote, Senate leaders proposed language that would put a $10,000 cap on the difference between a taxpayer’s 40% increase and the taxes that would be due at full implementation of Act 60.

When the bill reached the House-Senate conference committee, computer printouts showed that there would be only about 40 businesses affected, and the money generated would be insignificant. So the committee went fishing for more specific individual taxpayers and more money. By lowering the cap to $5,000, they were able to generate the $1.3 million in extra taxes from 110 businesses and individuals -- most in the ski areas that are already hard hit by Act 60. Never before in Vermont have individual taxpayers been singled out and selected for special (mis)treatment by the state.

Reaction was swift and angry. Killington ski area threatened to sue; Manchester taxpayers began circulating a petition calling for their town to refuse to collect or pay any Act 60 taxes. A business owner in Rutland declared "One of the things Vermonters have been saying to me consistently was that they love living in the state, but it was a difficult place to make a living." Even Governor Dean, who is otherwise a booster of Act 60 and its many "corrections," saw the dangerous implications for Vermont’s economy. "It’s unfair," said Dean, "to add $100,000 to someone’s tax bill they weren’t expecting -- especially someone who provides hundreds of jobs. "In reality, the employers on the list of 110 taxpayers provide thousands -- not hundreds -- of jobs for Vermonters from rich towns and poor towns alike.

http://www.act60.org/vcm.htm

[disgruntella]

1. have you ever posted a positive thread on a candidate?

Kerry or otherwise? Just curious.

[arcos]

6. nope... ever. n/t

[Nicholas_J]

10. Edwards

Kucinich, Sharpton, Lieberman, Graham, pretty much all of them but Dean.

The difference is that not one of the other candidates EVER chose wilfully to cut programs and services to the poor, the handicapped, the blind, the elderly, and Dean attempted to do so frequently during his tenure as governor.

The statistics of the uninsured in Vermont show that Dean inherited a state in which had one of the lowest rates of unisured in the nation, but for half of his tenure, more people were unisured than the five years prior to his becoming governor, and for only two years did he bring it one or two tenths of a percent lower, and in a third equal it. Most of the time under Deans budget cuts, the numbers of people uninsured rose.

State % uninsuredRhode Island* 7.2%Minnesota* 7.8%Iowa 8.0%Wisconsin* 8.5%Pennsylvania 8.7%Massachusetts* 8.7%Missouri* 8.8%New Hampshire 9.0%Delaware* 9.5%Nebraska 9.6%Vermont* 9.7%Connecticut 9.7%Hawaii* 9.7%Michigan 9.9%United States 14.5%Many factors contribute to a state’s uninsured rate, including the strength of its economy, the structure of its insurance market, and public programs. Hawaii is unique in that it has an employer mandate to offer insurance. Hawaii is able to do this because it has a specific exemption from ERISA (the federal law that preempts states from regulating employer-sponsored benefits). 1http://www.census.gov/hhes/hlthins/hlthin01/hi01t4.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 3
Several of the states with the lowest uninsured rates, including Vermont, have implemented Medicaid “1115” waivers (indicated with *)2. These waivers are intended to allow states to develop ways to expand Medicaid coverage to populations that are not normally eligible, such as working adults without children.

However, some states with moderate to high uninsured rates have also received waivers, so the influence of a waiver on a state’s uninsured rate is not straightforward.

Table 23, below, shows the results of the CPS for 1987-2001 and findings of the three state surveys.

Concerns have been raised about the magnitude of the difference between the state and CPS survey figures for 1997. Unfortunately, there is no way to determine which estimate is more accurate.

Some health care analysts4believe that the CPS underestimates the number of people on Medicaid and thus overestimates the number of uninsured.

At least one other state (Wisconsin) that does its own survey reports an uninsured rate substantially lower than the CPS estimate5.

Table 2 – Estimates of the Percent Uninsured in Vermont, 1987-2001

Rhode Island* 7.2%

Minnesota* 7.8%

Iowa 8.0%

Wisconsin* 8.5%

Pennsylvania 8.7%

Massachusetts* 8.7%

Missouri* 8.8%

New Hampshire 9.0%

Delaware* 9.5%

Nebraska 9.6%

Vermont* 9.7%

Connecticut 9.7%

Hawaii* 9.7%

Michigan 9.9%

So Vermont did not do as well as most of the other states in New England and equalled Connecticut in New England and Hawaii in its average for the yearsthat Dena was governor.

More interesting from the same report, is the fact that while Dean was governor, the rates of the uninsured fluctuated and as the report notes, for half of Deans eleven years, the rate of the uninsured exceeded the levels tat existed in Vermont prior to his becoming governor.

That is not necessarily a bad thing. but for Dean to try to push off "WHAT WE DID IN VERMONT" as a solution to the Health Care Crisis in the U.S. seems to be a rather poor solution, if one looks honestly at the rerocds for Vermont during that period.

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:FzuHwx-xM74J:www.leg.state.vt.us/jfo/Vermont%2520Uninsured.pdf+%22Vermont%22+%27uninsured%22+%221992%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&client=REAL-tb

or in PDF Format:

http://www.leg.state.vt.us/jfo/Vermont%20Uninsured.pdf.

Of course, this info will be flamed, and I will be told that this info is false, or has been found to be totally disreputable, odd though, as it comes from the Vermont studies done in Vermont while Dean was governor.

AS far as I can tell, Id Dean does to health care for the nation what he did in Vermont, the health care system is screwed.

What Denas campaign needs is a little more truthful reporting of his record, and not spin that turns him into the man who provided Universal health care in Vermont.

It was quite clever of Dean to use a ONE TIME subsection 1115 medicaid waiver to get all of those people who fel above the poverty levels covered, nowing they expired and were not renewable and would end this year, in 2003. As a result, Health Care in Vermont is about to crash, Dnea selected a temeporary means of doing this to leave those who followed him to pick up the mess that would result when the waivers expired which is now becoming a crisis in Vermont with the projection that was made in a report finished a few moths before Dean retired that:

B. Based on what we have learned, we do agree on this: Health care in Vermont is near a state of crisis -- some of us would say it is already in crisis -- and all health care sectors are on edge. We also note that many of these problems are national or even global in scope and that our abilities to solve them at the state level are limited.

C. Health care costs in Vermont, now exceeding $2 billion a year, are of a sufficient magnitude, however, and are increasing at a sufficient rate to place state government itself in jeopardy, including every program for which it appropriates money. By comparison, Vermonters budgeted $1.8 billion for all state government services in FY 2001 (not including federal funds).3

We are rapidly approaching the point at which these costs will directly conflict with our ability to do such things as to maintain roads and bridges, for example, or to provide cost-effective services to our infants and children, to promote agriculture and tourism, or to provide any other services our citizens have come to expect.

http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache:aC9QzqwOEmkJ:www.state.vt.us/health/commission/docs/report/mainreport.doc+%22Howard+Dean%22+%22Incentive+Plan+for+Medicaid%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

or:

http://www.state.vt.us/health/commission/docs/report/mainreport.doc

The problem is Deans attempt to represent somethiing that does not exist, or worse, a political move made by him for just long enough for him to leave office, and begin to collapse as soon as he left.


Dean as a candidate who reported what he actually did, and attempted, would be a Dean I would not be able to criticize.

The fact that he is trying to represent himself as having accomplished something that never happened, or at bes, was a haphazard and unplanned attempt to do something, or worse a craven attempt to make a move that looked politically good until he was no lnger in office is pretty unacceptable to me.

Deans attempts to massively cut medical services his last few moths in office, at the expense of the most vulnerable members of his state, while also refusing to slightly raised taxes n the wealthy becaseu he stated that the rich were already taxed too much, is as unacceptable to me as the Bush tax cuts that favored the wealthy, resulting in cuts to federal programs to assist the same groups.

Who Dean chose to target to balance his budget speaks far more loudly about the man than anything else.

It is a very old cliche that what a person does when times are good and lot of money is available reveals less about the character of the person than what they choose to do in a crunch.

Dean had several alternatives.One would do little harm to the wealthy.

The other would place a great burden on the poor, the elderly, the disabled, the blind.

Dean made the second choice. To favor the rich, and get their donations and support.At the expense of those who have no voice, and obviously to Dean, do not really matter, He talks like they do, but his decisions say otherwise.

I can no more support Deans decisions in these matters, than support Bush's taxx cuts for the extremely wealthy, or his theft of the election of 2000.

Not one of the other candidates who are running and have served in office have ever, ever, voted for, and accepted such cuts to those who were at the lowest rungs of our society. They have ALWAYS fought such cuts. They still fight the attempts of the Bush administration EVERYTIME they attempt to do anything like this. They are styill fighting the Republicans crappy Medicare Prescription Package they fought the attempt to lower Pell grants, they vigorously fought the latest rond of Bush tax cuts for the welathy and not one of the candidates voted for Bush's tax cuts or have accepted Bush's attempt to cut funding to health services, education, or any other social services. They may not win, but they DO NOT willingly and of their own accord, ever perform such an act or support such decisions.
Dean did so of his own accord, and did so even though there was enough money in the budget to leave Vermont with the suplus he claimed. Its just that Dean would rather have left a much larger surplus, look like an economic genius. But at the expense of those who no one would ever hear.

I have often supported other candidates. Even the DU whipping boy. Joe Lieberman, who has never dared to even suggest cutting such programs vitally necessary to the most vulnerable members of society.

Dean is the only candidate, again, who has made decisions I consider reprehensible. For almost totally political,personal, rather than humane reasons

Disagree, but the fact are there.

Just they remain hidden, attacked, and more importantly, unaddressed.

[tsipple]

2. The Dean Quote...

"It’s unfair," said Dean, "to add $100,000 to someone’s tax bill they weren’t expecting -- especially someone who provides hundreds of jobs."

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I agree.

[Ediacara]

3. nick doesn't even read the articles anymore

[KaraokeKarlton]

4. yawn

it's kind of pathetically comical that someone would be so obsessed with a candidate they don't support that they will post such lame things to try to get people to share their obvious unhealthy and unfounded hatred of Howard Dean.

[Ripley]

5. Hey hazmat...we are bored.

You are really working overtime...are you getting time and a half?

You need a break. I hear Cancun is nice!!

:hi:

[UnapologeticLiberal]

7. How is this supposed to be damaging?

It says that Dean opposed these unfair selective taxes.

[Nicholas_J]

11. Yes

As usual, Dean oposed these taxes on the rich and placed a cap on them just as Bush wants to place lower caps on the income taxes of the wealthy, This objection of Dean's was EXACTLY the same rational Bush uses for lowering the top income tax rates on the wealthy.

Dean also pulled a bush by refusing to increase the capital gains taxes on those who earn money from stock dividends.

Progressives call for higher taxes for rich
January 25, 2002

By JACK HOFFMAN

...Currently, Vermont’s highest income tax rate is 9.5 percent. That is the rate paid on taxable income above $283,000. Under the plan the Progressives proposed Thursday, the highest Vermont tax rate would be 11.88 percent.

The coalition also called for a change in the tax on capital gains. Currently, Vermont treats long-term capital gains as the federal government does and taxes it at a lower rate. The highest rate Vermont collects on capital gains is 4.8 percent.

The Progressives said Thursday that gains on investments should be treated the same as salaries and wages that people are paid for their labor. They said the tax rate should for capital gains should be the same as it is for ordinary income.

The Progressives said their proposal was designed to mirror the surcharges adopted during that last budget crisis, but they have not proposed an expiration date for the new surcharges.

Dean reiterated his opposition to raising the income tax shortly after the Progressives unveiled their tax plan. Dean contends Vermont’s marginal income tax rate — that is, the top rate paid by those in the highest income brackets — already is too high.


http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/41293.html

The first article that started this thread was from than this link here.

It is remarkably similar to Bush's arguments for HIS tax cuts and his desire to get rid of capital gains taxes.

If it was Bush suggesting these things, there would be massive attacks on DU for such sugestions, and a lot of those attacks would come from Dean supporters.

But because Dean did it, and stated his ideas that the rich are too highly taxed, it becomes remarkably acceptable to his supporters who will pretty much back up ANYTHING Dean has done or said, regardless of how much it is virtually the kind of thing that Dems are trying to get Bush out of office for.

No, I would support viertually EVERY other candidate.

They are running fairly honest campaigns, based on their real records.

What Dean has done in these cases as well, indicated that Deans actions have a massive disconnect from wht he states as a candidate.

These actions of Dena were rather repugnant. Elitist.

Perhaps he wanted his favorite ski resorts and his friends there to be allowed to avoid a fair share of taxation.

[UnapologeticLiberal]

22. Dean opposed selective taxation

Why should some businesses have extra taxes that do not apply to other businesses, unless the tax is directly related to addressing something related to the industry (i.e. taxing the oil and gas companies to fund Superfund cleanups). Hardly seems fair to me.

[AP]

23. While NJ's determination often merely amuses me, it's posts like this one

that really make me think.

And it distresses me that democrats would defend regressive taxation.

My earliest posts at DU...long before I knew who would be running for President...were about taxation. I've said that this is going to be the issue that I will look at the closest when I'm picking my candidate.

I've always thought that it's the hardest issue for a candidate to articulate, and that Democrats would be wise to wrap their heads around the issue, and figure out what the liberal angle is, and then vote for the Democrat who is the most liberal on this issue because it goes to the crux of the different visions Democrats and Republicans have for America. This is where the burdens and benefits are allocated.

[dsc]

26. Guess what Nic and AP YOUR candidates favor lowering capital gains taxes

http://newsobserver.com/24hour/politics/story/982788p-6899717c.html

But Kerry said he would provide tax relief to middle-class families by keeping the child tax credit, reduced marriage penalty and lower tax rates that were part of the Bush tax cut package while lowering capital gains and dividend taxes for the middle class.

Some of Kerry's proposals sounded familiar to one of his Democratic rivals. A spokesman for Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina noted that Edwards also has proposed lowering the capital gains and dividends tax for the middle class and reining in executive pay.

So what is your beef now?

[AP]

31. Edwards proposes a two-tiered cap gains tax which is progressisve -- lower

on middle class, higher on wealthy.

Don't tell lies about this, 'cause this is exactly where Dean is very different from the liberals running for president.

[dsc]

36. capital gains would still be lower than earned under this

and you have been on record opposing that in other threads.

[AP]

37. There is such a huge difference between Edwards and Dean on taxes

it isn't even funny.

What, are you trying to convince me that Dean is better or even the same?

Keep going. I'd like to see this.

Is any other candidate talking about progressivizing cap gains and dividencd income tax? Is anyone else really talking about expensing options?

Is Dean even talking about taxes in any concrete way?

[dsc]

38. How much more concrete can one get

than "I will repeal the entire Bush tax cut". You may not like his answer but it is concrete, and understandable. I am not trying to convince you that you will like Dean better but you should be consistent. Either it is wrong to have a different rate for capital gains or it isn't. You have said, on several occasions, that it is. Now that Edwards is for this you seem to be saying something else.

[AP]

39. It's hard to discuss this with you when you clearly don't know what

you're talking about.

You don't understand how two tiers for cap gains and dividend income is progressive, do you?

Try to explain to me again what you think is going on with this issue.

[renie408]

40. Hey, man

You are even starting to sell me on Dean.

[LuminousX]

8. Holy Cow! I can't vote for this guy!!

He doesn't support unfair taxation!
He cares about the economy of his state!!

The fool!

If it sounds even slightly negative, post it. Never let the full facts get in the way of an attack thread.

[genius]

9. Dean's Park Avenue

He's a rich man's dream candidate. The difference between him and Bush is that bvery few Democrats trust Bush. The good news is that more and more Democrats don't trust Dean either and they'll be watching out for his rich man's policies.

[jkg4peace]

12. Vermont isn't a real place...

it's a postcard. With about 600,000 residents, the whole state has about 1/5th the population of the CITY I live in. Oh, and 97% of Vermonters are white. And no one is poor (or hardly anyone). So what's the big deal? If you can't make sure all the white, rich kids in Vermont have health care, you are pretty much a lost cause.

(No offense to people from Vermont -- I hear it is a "picture perfect" place to live -- they don't even have billboards!)

[DannyRed]

15. Complete crap...

Ever lived in or near rural poverty?

I grew up in it...in Maine, not so much different from Vermont at all.

It sucks.

It's hard, work is brutal, money is tight, and the climate is harsh.

Vermont has its fair share of loggers, sawyers, mill workers, industrial workers, urban blight, and so on.

Get off your high horse.

Attacking a state's entire population like that is no substitute for serious critique of a candidate from that state.

You should be ashamed.

[Skywalker]

16. Maybe you should come and visit...

...some of the small towns in Vermont before posting.

It isn't the easiest place to live, as DannyRed posted, the Winters are hard and the wages are low. True there a lot of rich people here, but they are mostly in or nearby the big cities.

But, I wouldn't live anywhere else.

Also we have Leahy, Jeffords, and Sanders and I'm damn proud of them.

BTW NJ's posts are so long, I hardly read them anymore and barely skim some of theem as well.


Mark

[DianeK]

18. never ceases to amuse me..

the misconceptions people seem to form about what it must be like to live in this state...the wealthy visit our resorts and go back to their states and tell all kinds of tales about how wonderful it is here...try keeping your water pipes from freezing in -40 weather winter after winter....beautiful? you bet...harsh? for sure

[UnapologeticLiberal]

21. Many people in Vermont are poor

It is a pretty rural state, and a lot of the farm towns are very poor. When I went up there in June for Dean's declaration speech, I was surprised at how rural it was and how old and beaten up some of the houses we passed between Montpelier and Burlington were. It seemed like a great state but there is definitely a lot of rural poverty, even if urban poverty is not as much of an issue as most other states.

And the people there are certainly far from all rich...the state is 26th in income in the country, so it is just below the halfway mark. So either there is no extreme poverty and most people are of modest means, or there is extreme poverty and there are some rich people. If everyone were rich it would be a lot higher on the income scale.

[Nicholas_J]

27. But Deans economic policies for Vermont Resulted in:

Vermont at a Glance

Many families in Vermont saw moderate improvements in their standard of living over the 1990s as the wages of median-wage workers grew. However, low-wage workers saw their wages decline over the 1990s, and median income stagnated. The poverty rate and income inequality in Vermont grew over the 1990s (see link below for table).

Median family income for four-person families
Middle-income families in Vermont have not fared particularly well during the current economic expansion. The incomes of families in the middle of the income distribution stagnated over the 1990s. Median family income for four-person families was $53,691 in 1998, compared to its 1989 level of $53,103 (in 1998 dollars).

Income inequality
Income inequality in Vermont grew over the 1990s. In the late 1990s, the income of the wealthiest 20% of families was 8.4 times that of the poorest 20% of families. By comparison, in the late 1980s, the wealthiest 20% of families had 7.4 times the income of the poorest 20%.

Poverty rate
The poverty rate in Vermont grew during the 1990s, from 8.1% in 1987-88 to 9.6% in 1997-98. However, the poverty rate in Vermont in the late 1990s remained below the national rate (13.0% in 1997-98).

Wages
In Vermont in the 1990s, the wages of low-wage workers declined, while the wages of similar workers grew at the national level. In 1999, the inflation-adjusted hourly wages of low-wage workers (workers at the 20th percentile) were 0.4% lower than they were in 1989, but due to wage gains in the 1980s they remained 10.5% higher than they were in 1979. The wages of workers in the middle of the wage distribution grew over both the 1980s and 1990s. The inflation-adjusted median wage (the wage of workers in the middle) in 1999 was 12.2% higher than it was in 1979.

Source: Mishel, et al. 2000. State of Working America 2000-01. Economic Policy Institute.

http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/datazone_states_usmap_vt

Deans fiscal conservatism is similar to Bush's and had similar results. The poor got poorer, the number of people in poverty increased, the middle class went no where, and the gap between the rich and the poor grew wider. This ALWAYS results from ideas of fiscal conservatism, favoring growth at all costs, rather than sustainable growth and progressive economic systems.

No matter what, favoring big businesses who do not headquarter in a region, and have no vested interests in the region, who do not have to reinvest their profits in the region, end up sucking that region dry. This is what those who oppose the WTO, NAFTA and similar big corporate politico/economic solutions are fighting against, The portability of capital is what is causing the dislocation of many American workers, and job losses to third world countries. Same thing happened in Vermont as a result of Denas ideas, and the effects on the average person and family are noted in the Economic Policy insitute above.

[dsc]

29. Not true

On two counts. Income disparity has actually fallen under Bush as it usually does in a recession. The rich did get huge tax breaks but lost huge in the stock market. In contrast, the middle class who have remained employed (which would be most of them) didn't gain but didn't lose either. Dean's record on disparity is actually more similar to Clinton's. Where Dean admittedly fell short is in the increase in poverty rate. His tax policies wouldn't have caused that though since the poverty rate is measured before taxes not after. It should also be noted that the minimum wage is higher in Vermont than it is in the nation as a whole and that having no high cost urban areas their average wages are likely to be somewhat lower no matter what. Also, since poverty rate is both a nationwide stat and not altered for non cash benefits the poor recieve it is possible, and I would say probable, that even with the slight increase in poverty his lower class was better off than he found it due to his various initiatives like health care.

[Nicholas_J]

13. Remember who came in as one of Deans Chief advisors from day one.

To the dismay of liberals in the Legislature who wanted to expand social and environmental programs, Dr. Dean and his chief economic adviser, Harlan Sylvester, a conservative stockbroker and investment banker, stuck with the Snelling budget-cutting plan. Helped by a booming economy, the state's finances improved sharply.

http://www.politicalpunk.com/~politica/politicalpunkfordeanarchive/000129.php

And it remains that way until this day. Most of Deans fiscal advisors are very conservative Wall Street Power Brokers.

Again not much differnt than Cheney and Ken Lay making decisions about the entire nations energy policies behind closed doors.

In another post, we will deal with the draining of Vermonts health funds, by allowing the state to pay far higher prices to pharmaceutical companies. Three of the companies that sold the drugs to the state for much higher than the discounts give to every other state.They provided Dean with more money for his campaigns than any person running against Dean was able to raise in total for their campaigns. By 2002, the overcharges costbthe state so much, that the profits tothe health industry and health care providers threatened to cripple the entire state government, with these expenses eating up nealy 2 billion dollars of Vermonts ENTIRE state budget, while Vermont essentially saw no drop in the number of uninsured in the state.

[acerbic]

14. Propaganda analysis:

A quoted opinion from somebody with link to the source (which actually happens to be pro-Dean) and the rest is nothing but made up allegations, smears, insinuations and claims with absolutely no proof but it's "cleverly" made to look as if the link is some proof for the made up gobbledygook too. it's certainly good enough for the few sycophantic followers to chime in but not for anyone with a more critical mind.

[DannyRed]

17. Unlike, say

Rubin, advisor for Clinton?

Or Lawrence Summers, another advisor for Clinton?

[Ediacara]

19. I had no idea....

Keynesian economics was an evil Republican fascist system. I must have been confused by the fact that Reoublicans DON'T like Keynesian systems and insist on supply-side-with-attitude.

[AP]

24. What's Keynsian

about cutting deals with Wall St interests and pharmeceutical industry profits in mind?

What's Keynsian about refusing to have a progressive tax code?

[LuminousX]

20. If that is the case...

does this mean we can see fewer attack threads regarding Dean?

No?

I didn't think so. Dean, no matter his background, is a contender and the reason so many people are fighting hard against him is because he is the biggest contender in the ring. Every attack thread posted is verification that Dean is igniting people's passions.

Every time Dean's name is mentioned, in a postive or negative way, it helps spread awareness regarding him.

[AP]

25. Yeah. If that's the bottom line, don't bother addressing the implications

of these threads.

Don't bother defending Dean from the charge that he is too big-business friendly.

[LuminousX]

30. "Too Big-Business Friendly"

I don't even know how to begin to address that. Who defines the 'proper amount of friendliness" and how is it measured? Sounds like a subjective matter that boils down to personal opinion.

And it isn't my place to defend Dean against anything. He has to do it for himself.

[AP]

32. Bush has defined the improper amount of friendliness, and Dean doesn't see

the need to change the way Bush treats business.

[LuminousX]

34. I disagree

I don't see Dean having the same type of relationship Bush has with corporations. Nothing I've read has even begun to equate the two. But if that is your opinion and perception of Dean, that is okay. We'll see what the dominant perception is in the primaries.

[AP]

35. I don't think Dean is the same, but I don't think he sufficiently differs

The Cato Institute quote, his attittude towards taxes, his willingness to cut social programs to balance budgets (even in good times), his record in VT vis servicing businesses (eg, IBM, Walmart and private energy companies)...it's not good stuff. Furthermore, with his biography, he has to worry about the symoblism of not standing in defense of average Americans from the avarice of Wall St.

Rockefeller and Kennedy were able to stand as that kind of symbol -- as defenders of the middle class. The more I read about Dean, the more he seems like he's trying to exaggerate being socially liberal so that people don't ask too many questions about his big business friendliness (ie, fiscal conservativism)

[sandnsea]

28. Will you vote for Dean if he wins?

I will and that's one reason I'm hard on him now. But I'll still vote for him, will you?

[AP]

33. It's not DU'ers you have to worry about. It's the vast middle and the base

who, if they don't see a big enough difference between the candidates on issues that matter to them (business friendliness, taxes, the economy) won't bother to vote.

This is why David Brooks wrote that article painting Bush and Dean as being from the same class and motivated by the same things.