A preview of the right on Dean

[sandnsea]

Why are Kerry supporters concerned? It's right below me here. I looked for the article on the Hamas soldier and Israel thing, because it's not very pretty either. As I said somewhere else, if you don't understand the difference between a soldier and a terrorist, fine. But I guarantee you the rest of America does. And Dean had several days to answer the Fox reports on it and he didn't. I guess he was just going to let that stand to be sprung on him next year, it still will be. The other Democratic candidates and Nancy Pelosi are doing him a favor by calling him out on major policy gaffs and demanding clarifications now. I've seen people say Kerry used Foxnews rhetoric. No, Kerry forced Dean to address Foxnews rhetoric because Dean didn't do it on his own. Dean supporters, I urge you to look at this seriously because if Dean gets the nomination this is what he's going to be up against.

"Dean has altered his positions on a variety of issues — the number of troops in Iraq, tax cuts, Social Security, trade and campaign finance reform.

On Iraq, Dean called for more troops, then hinted the United States should get out, and now says he believes the United States should stay there but not add troops.

On tax cuts, Dean first said he would repeal about 80 percent of the tax cuts pushed by President Bush. Now, he wants to repeal them all.

On Social Security, Dean once suggested raising the eligibility age, but now says it should stay as is.

On trade, Dean said the United States should only trade with nations that meet strict American standards. Now, he says they must meet looser international standards.

And on Cuba, Dean once said he wanted the trade embargo relaxed, but now he says it should remain.

All the while, he has trumpeted his candor and straight talk on the campaign trail for months, but in his response, his aides, when asked about all his shifting policies, responded that one of his strengths as president is his flexibility. A lot of Dean critics are now asking what flexible straight talk sounds like."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,97007,00.html

[XanaDUer]

1. Sandnsea...

Question: in your first sentence, you asked 'why are Kerry supporters concerned?'
Did you mean Dean supporters? If not, I may be confused.

[sandnsea]

2. No, I mean Kerry supporters

Dean supporters aren't concerned at all. That's the whole point.

[XanaDUer]

11. Okay, got ya.

Thanks for the clarification.

[clar]

3. Got Teflon?

Look, the right's gonna tear into whoever the nominee is, and that includes Kerry. The thing is, can it stick? It's not a foregone conclusion that what's flung at a candidate will harm that person. And frankly you're looking through a prism colored by your dislike for Dean, and your loyalty to Kerry. We all look through prisms, we all have our biases, the trick is recognizing that your views are shaped by your subjectivity.

I don't know if JK has operable teflon. ë suspect that he may not, simply from the way his campaign's been going. Dean had terrific teflon while Governor here. I used to shake my head, and laugh at the shit he got away with saying. He'd piss people off and then proceed to work productively with them. Beats me how he did it. Will his teflon be strong enough on the national stage? Will Kerry's teflon improve. For the answers to these and other questions, we can only stay tuned.

[sandnsea]

4. Dean puts himself in the fire

You're right, they're always going to find things to attack with. But Howard Dean steps right up and gives them new material every few days. He needs to recognize it and stop.

[clar]

12. I think you missed

my point, which is simply that some people have a natural (or maybe unnatural) ability to deflect attacks. And many of the attacks have nothing to do with Dean stepping in it, they have everything to do with his front runner status. All I know is that the other candidates have appoximately 6 weeks more to stop him. Should Dean end q3 with 12-15 million dollars, and no major missteps, he'll be really hard to stop.

[sandnsea]

21. That's the campaign strategy?

Hope everything slides right off? Okay, we'll see.

[clar]

31. Oh, c'mon

That's not what I'm talking about. I suspect you know that. As for campaign strategy goes, the acclaim for the Dean campaign from pundits can scarcely have escaped your notice.

[sandnsea]

41. It's what I'm talking about

The Dean campaign has had some real Hollywood style 'events' which has gotten people excited. But it hasn't done anything substantive with Dean's gaffs except to say he's being picked on. That's not going to be good enough against Bush.

[valniel]

53. I think q3 ends in 16 days

and yes, it will be interesting to see Dean's expenditures and income.

[KaraokeKarlton]

39. No, he doesn't need to stop

You see, the harder things get for Dean, the better he gets. What happened when the DLC memo came out attacking Dean? His supporters send thousands and thousands of e-mails telling the DLC off. Everytime Dean gets attacked, his supporters fight harder for him and become even more loyal. Anyone who attacks Dean is going to just hurt themselves and help bolster Dean. Conventional wisdom can be thrown right out the window when it comes to Dean. He won't run from attacks or avoid them. He faces them head on and goes right through them. Each time he does this, more people get impressed at his ability to do it and sign on to his campaign.

[DemBones DemBones]

45. I sent a lengthy e-mail telling the DLC off but I owe them an apology

because they were correct to criticize Dean. Since that time, I've learned a lot about Dean's record and seen him make a number of public gaffes and flip flops, and I just can't support him. If he gets the nomination and actually beats Bush*, I'm afraid of what may happen.

Remember, Bush* has Teflon among his supporters, just as Dean does among his, but the Bush* Teflon has NOT kept the rest of the world from noticing his deficiencies and I see no reason for Dean's Teflon to protect him on the world stage, either. It's not just about being liked by supporters when you're president of the U.S. The man in that position has incredible power and responsibility.

[KaraokeKarlton]

52. Did you do your homework before supporting him?

Anyone who did that knows quite clearly where Dean stands, and has always stood. He has altered a couple of positions because he listens to his supporters and gets new information. That's the doctor in him, and he's always been that way. As he gets more facts, he will change his position based on those new facts. I think that's a good way to do things. Things change over time, and positions need to be flexible enough to meet those changes. I have the advantage of living in Vermont, and I happen to think he's the only one with the experience necessary to clean up the mess Bush has made. He did a great job doing that here in Vermont when he inherited a mess when he became governor. The only one in the race other than Dean that might have the executive experience necessary to do the job might be Graham, but I'm not sure what kind of job he did. I know Dean was awesome. Why else would we re-elect him 5 times? He clearly was doing something right.

[valniel]

54. Yes, but there is a major difference

between Govenor of Vermont & President of the US. And Bush will have the money to make every little mistake come back to hurt you.

[Upfront]

5. Yawn

[LuminousX]

6. If Dean can't stand the heat

then he won't get the nomination.

That is what this process is about. The fact that none of the Dean supporters are being converted is a clue that we believe Dean is on the right track. We could be wrong and that will only be discovered during the primary.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

7. Interesting.

On Iraq, Kerry voted for the damned thing.

On tax cuts, it'll be easier to repeal the whole lot of them and then institute a more progressive plan.

On social security:

MR. RUSSERT: In ’96 you told The Globe you would look at raising the retirement age. You—no?
SEN. KERRY: I would not—I said that was one of many options that were out there that people would put on the table. Back then we were talking about putting everything on the table. I would not do that, period.


On trade, Kerry voted for NAFTA.



blah, blah, blah


edit- added Kerry response for clarity.

[sandnsea]

8. So not the point

Ignore the problems, maybe they'll just go away.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

9. Huh?

Your first line is: "Why are Kerry supporters concerned?"

You roll out a list. I point out that Kerry has the same problems (as do all the candidates).

You say: "So not the point."


Well, :wtf: is the point?

[sandnsea]

14. Then I missed your point

Sure all the candidates have problems. Actually, Kerry supposedly 'waffling' isn't his biggest problem by my estimation. Other things will be bigger hurdles I think, but I'll wait and see what happens. The waffling is really not an issue because he's actually been very clear when he's changed a position. He thought it was good that the Democrats got a shake-up in '94 but when Gingerich's actions didn't match his words, he stood up and said so. Discussing possibilities for SSI is one thing, declaring them policy another. Clinton actually first brought up stock market type plans for SSI, as a basis for discussion, not new policy.

Dean doesn't make these distinctions but tries to say he does. Like on the repeal of tax cut. He actually hasn't flip-flopped, he hasn't been clear at all. He said he'd repeal 'part' of the Bush tax cuts in both 2002 and as recently as August 2003, while at the same time saying he'd repeal 'all' of the Bush tax cuts. And I absolutely refuse to get in your 'repeal and put some back' nonsense, his remarks have been more direct than that anyway.

And the reason I bring these up is not to hash them over, rather to express amazement that the problems are simply denied. Nobody can ever understand when somebody has a problem with what Dean says. The answer is always 'it's not true'& 'you mean Dean basher'. Well if that's the campaign plan against Bush, it's not going to work. And that's where I, for at least one Kerry supporter, am concerned. Not with the claims made against Dean so much, but rather with pure denial as a response.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

42. Ever since Reagan used "vascillating" on Carter in 1979,

every front-runner has been called a waffler. Were Dean to fall behind today the new front-runner would come down with a severe case of the Waffles. Kerry is nuanced. Dean is a waffler. Dean uses multi-dimensional thinking. Kerry runs the Waffle House. It's all bullshit.

[shance]

10. I have seen John Kerry waffle on as many things easily as Dean

Yet Kerry has had the luxury of not being as illuminating as Dean.

I like Kerry, gave money to him before I threw my support to Governor Dean and will vote for Kerry if he wins the primary.

However, lets return to Nancy Pelosi, Howard Berman and these individuals shipping a letter around to Democrats to try and isolate Dean.

Have you taken a look at what an absolutist and fundamentalist stance they are seeming to employ? Do the Palestinians even exist to them? By the implications of this letter one would think not. Their actions reflected more of some twelfth century crusaders than legislators. What a pathetic display of statesmanship - AGAINST OUR OWN NO LESS!!

Help me out here. How is being "even-handed" in any way, shape, or form wrong? And they need not worry. The I/P situation is FAR from even handed as the bombing, indiscriminate shooting, removal of any basic humane rights is leveled at Palestinians every single day. Keep in mind, Im a WASP.

Also, what Ms. Pelosi and all the other rather trigger happy individuals seemed to have forgotten that Governor Deans wife is Jewish. HELLO? I guess that means little, just an irrelevant point there. It sure doesnt seem to work into their overall strategy. Kind of a little technicality they would rather overlook.

Major Gaffe? You bet your bootie.

Nancy Pelosi showed some highly political and distasteful colors the other day by unfairly attacking Governor Dean, one of the few real inspirations happening in this party these days.

The "major gaffe" was the product of Nancy Pelosi, Howard Berman, Dick Gephardt, etc. that seem to be doing all they can, including attempting to divide and dismantle the ONE GOOD THING bringing some renewed enthusiasm and unity into our party. If this is some self-destructive streak they have, then they need therapy or a new occupation other than legislating. Good God, with Democrats acting like Pelosi, Gephardt and Berman, who needs enemies? If they keep it up, they will not only keep bolstering Howard Dean, they'll be sure to help the Republicans.

OUR LEADERS NEED TO BE WORKING TOGETHER AND NOT AGAINST ONE ANOTHER.

We have ENOUGH problems from the other side wouldnt you agree? In the end, their actions only make Dean look better and reveal their pretty calculated and divisive maneuver, and in the end polarizing the Democratic party into two factions which of course is the Republicans DREAM.

I would disagree with Governor Dean on perhaps one thing, although I totally understand his reasoning. He had no need to apologize. On the contrary, it is those who wrote such a mean-spirited, essentially dishonest, fear-evoking letter that need to apologize to Governor Dean. Is our government and society so dysfunctional that to promote peace and desire a goal of peace is wrong and unpresidential?

Dean is now trying to maintain some form of civility and unified semblance within the party. Yes, he has criticized other candidates, and Im sure he may very well in the future. If the criticisms are true than that is fair game, but some far-fetched overblown dissection of a quote is wrong and hurts the party in the long AND short run. AND YES THERE ARE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES that are nothing more than Republican lite! How many Americans were SO RELIEVED to hear a candidate actually state what we have been feeling for years?

He now is being unwisely targeted by those candidates who cannot seem to attract America's devotion on their own merit. Not one of them has worked half as hard (save Kucinich and Kerry somewhat) to reach out to Americans like Dean has. Other candidates are realizing they better start talking and listening to more Americans, thus following the accomplishments of Dean. And then they get angry at Dean for doing what THEY should have done in the first place?? Thats what running for president is all about. Being a leader and listening to the needs of the people. I watch Dean and admire and am amazed by his conviction and his willingness to do the little stuff, the ice cream socials, the pig auctions. Hes done it all and more. I know the other candidates have worked very hard as well, and I see strengths in every candidate, with the exception of one. And in truth, many of them cant campaign as much because they are in D.C., which is another concern for me as to why Senators feel they can run for President when they have a constituency to represent.


Back to Kerry, who I like, but I dont like this attacks, because if he cannot win on his own merit than he doesnt deserve to be our candidate. The same applies for Governor Dean and I mean that.

Kerry has waffled many times on quite a few things on the war, on tax cuts, and a few others that escape me at the moment and not to mention has followed Deans lead on many things. You know what? I dont actually mind a little waffling if it is a justifiable and honest, thought through change in beliefs.

No nominee is going to win solely by pointing out someone elses weaknesses. They have to win on their own merit. This is why Dean is winning.

So far, in my opinion, the greatest actions, and most concerned attentive responses given promptly and with commitment to ALL Americans has been Governor Dean.

I did not appreciate and felt somewhat betrayed by Kerry's invalidating comment on the 2000 election, instructing those of us upset about the 2000 election to stop "crying in our teacups". He never apologized for that by the way.

I dont want to cry in my teacups. I WANT FAIR ELECTIONS. What is Kerry doing about this by the way? So far he has said nothing about the issue regarding the computerized voter PROBLEM. Here again, Governor Dean and Dennis Kucinich are the only candidates that have actively addressed and shown concern over what is probably the most significant dilemma facing our Democracy today. Those are biggies.

I would re-think getting to upset over Dean desiring a peaceful solution in the Middle East. God forbid any president promote peace.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

13. Amen.

[George_Bonanza]

15. All politicians waffle, so you're right

However, Dean's the one who has been primarily running on the ticket of "First honest president since Abe", or what have you. Dean's main appeal is that he's immune to insider Washington, is a straight shooter with heart. He has staked out his position by presenting himself as different and better than the worn-out Washington veterans like Kerry or Gephardt. If he waffles just as much as Kerry or anybody else, what makes him so much better? Nothing, that's what. Just a bunch of media hullaballoo and falsely conveyed images and feelings.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

16. I've got a

"First honest president since Abe" T-Shirt on right now.

[babzilla]

46. but Deans got syrup

[sandnsea]

18. IWR Vote for one

Whenever I've seen someone post something on one of Kerry's positions, it's generally discussed. Most Kerry supporters seems to understand that the IWR vote is a controversial issue for example. We don't pretend it's not. Howard Dean's 'position' is possibly - anti-Iraq war under any circumstance, OR Saddam is a danger and maybe we should use military action against him some day or other - and seems to be perfectly consistent to many. It makes no sense to me but I guess my opinion doesn't matter. I'm just a Dean basher I guess.

Which brings me to some of the bizarre accusations thrown around about Dean Bashers, that it's all some wild conspiracy and there's just a bunch of Rovian disruptors trolling through DU just to say mean things about Dean. Whatever, but in 2004, it won't be enough to deny what's happening and stomp your feet and get mad at Rove.

You don't like US-ME policy fine. If Howard Dean wants to go a different way, he should by all means say so and support it and sell it to the American people. Instead he used words that implied he wanted to overturn US policy on Israel without understanding what those words meant. So he had to backtrack. HE chose to backtrack so HE was obviously wrong. It's not Nancy Pelosi's fault or John Kerry's fault or Joe Lieberman's fault. It's Howard Dean's fault for using words that shouldn't be used when discussing foreign policy. And his campaign isn't doing him any favors by letting him get away with blaming everybody else for his own mistakes.

[dsc]

17. point by point rebuttal

First, lets take care of the outright lies.

"On Iraq, Dean called for more troops, then hinted the United States should get out, and now says he believes the United States should stay there but not add troops."


Presuming you mean US troops here this is just plain lying. Dean never said we should have more US troops. He did call for UN ones and still does. BTW aside from Kucinich, Sharpton, and maybe CMB everyone agrees with him on this.

Second, let us dispose with the lite lies. Places where you stretched the truth so far that you all but lied.

"As I said somewhere else, if you don't understand the difference between a soldier and a terrorist, fine"

This is very close to lying. The point of contention in the ME with regards to Hamas isn't if they are soldiers or terrorists it is if they are political leaders or terrorists. Of political leaders, terrorists, and soldiers only the first are illegitimate targets in war. That is why Palestinians wish them to be referred to as policital leaders and not terrorists or soldiers.

"On tax cuts, Dean first said he would repeal about 80 percent of the tax cuts pushed by President Bush. Now, he wants to repeal them all."

Let's assume for the moment the 80% figure is accurate (you have provided no quotes on this with percents unless it is in your link here). When he made the one quote where he says he would save some of the Bush cuts the deficit was at least $250 billion less and more like $400 billion less than it is now. Yes he changed his position when the facts changed. I was going to give Dean money in August but when I got a ticket and couldn't drive (long story) I couldn't. Did I lie? Or did things change? I think in both cases circumstances changed immensly.

"And on Cuba, Dean once said he wanted the trade embargo relaxed, but now he says it should remain."

Another lie lite. You omit the fact that since that statement about the embargo was made Castro clamped down on dissidents to such an extent that even liberals were appalled. This would be like critising a parent for lying to his child if he decided not to let him drive the car as promised after the child downed a fifth of vodka.

That leaves the sort of true stuff.

"On Social Security, Dean once suggested raising the eligibility age, but now says it should stay as is."

This is a several years old position. It was taken before Clinton balanced the budget. He has since decided that raising the cut off point for SS taxes is a better plan. I will give you this is sort of a flip but I think Kerry voted to do this at one point as well (not 70 but 67)

"On trade, Dean said the United States should only trade with nations that meet strict American standards. Now, he says they must meet looser international standards."

Here I have yet to see Lieberman's source. Assuming it is a true source and not out of context this probably was misspeaking as many people do. I would want to see the direct source here.

So here is the score card. One out right lie. Two lite lies. One very old position which he did change and one that we don't know yet. Somehow I bet I could do as well with any candidate if I so chose.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

19. "First, lets take care of the outright lies....."

LOL.

[sandnsea]

20. I don't care

what the right says about Dean so I don't care about the rebuttals. Don't tell me, tell them in 2004!!! I just think people have got to take their blinders off, that's all. Whoever wins this campaign, everybody has to support him. If that's Dean, I don't want any more 'terrorists are soldiers' and 'even-handed' Israel comments. Not unless that's what he really means. If he means it, no problem, stand behind it. But he needs to figure out what the hell he means so he doesn't have to run around saying 'oops' all the time. And I don't think for one minute he would say he misspoke if he didn't.

[dsc]

23. huh?

I haven't a clue what you mean here. YOu say we need to deal with this, I do so, and now you don't care. Which is it? I must be dense tonight.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

24. "Second, let us dispose with the lite lies...."

[babzilla]

26. maybe he's taking his signature line to heart

We've got to start making some friends on this planet. John Kerry

[sandnsea]

27. Denial

We've been through it before, no need to go through it all again. It happens every time. A problem comes up, it's denied. Dean evolves. People are being mean. It's all Karl Rove. Whatever, I tried.

[dsc]

28. gee this must be the Dean Basher code

I do a point by point rebuttal. You answer nothing. And two days later you will claim no one rebutted you. Nice work if you can get it.

[sandnsea]

29. Rebut Dean Denial

That's the goddamn point, but of course, people in denial wouldn't be able to see it, would they?

[dsc]

38. please point to one error in my post

Presumedly that should be easy given your implication.

[sandnsea]

43. Again?

The first resource I saw where Dean mentioned repealing some of the tax cuts was in Sept 2002, the second time was in August 2003. This has nothing to do with circumstances changing, that is just made up to support the 'evolving' rhetoric. Links have already been provided to you.

I personally heard Dean say American labor standards.

And terrorists are not soldiers. I don't care how many word games people want to play. Hamas terrorists are not soldiers. Dean had plenty of time to respond to that after Fox news brought it out, he didn't. It wasn't until Kerry confronted him with it that he realized he needed to correct himself. And good for all of us Democrats because if Dean gets elected, we don't want that sitting there like a time bomb. And I don't know if anybody noticed in the Pelosi letter, but at the end it addresses the mixed messages Howard Dean was sending while tensions are running so high. That's a potential international incident, not picking on Dean. The things Nancy Pelosi was called over it is quite telling, Deanies were rejecting the Democratic Party altogether. Something so serious had happened that it required the Democratic House leader to intervene and Deanies still can't see it. Denial.

[dsc]

44. The defict hasn't changed since Sept 2002?

are you kidding me? Since September 2002 we had a war which has cost $160 billion dollars and a tax cut which cost close to a trillion. On what planet isn't that a change in the deficit? The August quote you need to link so I can recall it. At lest you need to repeat it I don't have a perfect memory.

[sandnsea]

47. No

I'm not going through the taxes again.

[dsc]

48. fine then don't

BTW I am running a poll and 100% of responders agree the deficit has changed since Sept 2002. And supposedly I am in denial.

[dsc]

49. Here I am once again doing the Dean basher's homework

Here is your 2003 quote. BTW I quoted all of the relevant text not the selection you chose.

Meanwhile, Dean struck back at a primary rival, Connecticut Sen. Joe Lieberman, who warned on Friday that Dean's opposition to the war in Iraq and his push for complete repeal of the Bush tax cuts could be a "ticket to nowhere'' for Democrats on Election Day 2004.


"I disagree with Joe," Dean said. "He's served this country well, but he's been on the wrong side of a lot of issues and I simply disagree with his assessment. I think my policies are a ticket to the White House.''


During a brief interview, Dean refused to rule out that some tax cuts would be part of an economic plan the candidate will present next month.


"We would love to have middle-class tax cuts, but they have to be paid for in some way," Dean said. "We're going to have a big economic speech in the middle of September. Maybe there will be some tax reductions, but they will have to be paid for in some way.''


End of quote

Note that no where in the bottom three paragraphs of that quote do the words President or Bush appear. He discusses the possibility of some (paid for) middle class tax cuts. He NEVER says the President's cuts, Bush's cuts, or any other construction which would lead one to believe he is discussing Bush's cuts. Maybe on the planted bizarro where you reside this is not repealing all of Bush's cuts. But here on planet earth, where I choose to reside, it is. It is sad when people are intellectually dishonest to make a point. It is sadder when on top of that they are too lazy to search for quotes they have in the first place. It tops it off when they are as condesending as you have been.

[sandnsea]

50. You're going on ignore

I've seen your posts to other people and it's too much to take. It's irrational.

I've posted where Dean refers to the President's tax cuts one time and the Bush tax cuts another. You didn't post the quotes, yet refer to them when trying to pretend they don't exist. For whatever reason, you just don't want to look at the truth of it. I've told you before, believe whatever you want. It doesn't change reality. Take care of yourself. Bye!

[dsc]

51. you are lying yet again

This is the one, and only, quote you supplied dated in 2003. I checked due to your laziness and refusal to post. I specificly asked for the 2003 one due to the fact that the deficit has changed. Again this is the only 2003 quote. You are lying and mods if he can call me irrational after lying about what I said then I should be able to call him on it. He lied when he said he posted these quotes. I went back and checked. Do not remove this post and leave his up.

[peaceandjustice]

55. So what is a terrorist, anyways?

What is you're definition of terrorism? Intentionally perpetrating violence against innocent civilians to cause fear in the population?

[sandnsea]

30. This is even better...

Go read the 'what's Dean's position on Israel' thread. 5 posts, 3 different responses. And you wonder why I say he has no clear position on anything.

[Andromeda]

56. Denial is a river in Egypt...

Dean and his supporters don't claim he's perfect. We wouldn't like him if he was. His imperfections are what I find so appealing and his willingness to change his positions when the situation warrants it. It takes a pretty big person to admit they have changed their position on something. To me, somebody who NEVER changes their position on anything is rigid and uncompromising. It's the big things that are important to me and probably most of the Dean supporters, although I don't claim to speak for all of them. Maybe we just don't think some of these nitpicky things are that important. Dean is a fighter and we are long overdue for a leader who is willing to stand up for us.

[babzilla]

22. glory bee dsc

good answer, it is people like you who will take no guff and in the process will succeed in taking our country back.

Rebuttals do matter.

[dsc]

25. thanks

and love the picture

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

36. You have so much patience!

Great post! Thanks for taking the time to show what some people try to pass off as 'truths' about Dean are completely false, or half truths contorted into something awful. Maybe if they put as much time into promoting their candidate, they might see some results.

[Andromeda]

57. That goes for me too, dsc...

you are the best. I wish I had your patience.
:toast:

[genius]

32. Good post. Can you imagine what Bush will do with the flip-flops

If Dean gets the nomination, the Democratic Party will will look like idiots.

[babzilla]

33. I can imagine what Bush can do with the flip-flops

he can stash em where the sun don't shine.
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:vZydF_mL7wkC:

So what will the Democratic party look like if Kucinich gets the nomination? Geniuses?

[xJlM]

35. Like people who want a change

People don't really want more American boys dying in Iraq, do they? People are about fed up with the health care crisis in America, aren't they? People do want American jobs, so they can take care of their loved ones and their own future, don't they?

[babzilla]

37. cool

that is what all the Dean supporters I know want too. Calling them idiots doesn't help the cause.

[xJlM]

34. Real good point

If this bit is bothering enough Democratic activists, what do you think the general public is going to think of it?

[mbali]

40. Pot calling kettle black

will be the refrain of the Bushies if Dean, should he get the nomination, continue his pattern of backtracking. How in the world can the Democrats Bush of flip flopping if our candidate's doing the same thing?