It's The Dean Critics

[clar]

who are turning DU into Dean U. The majority of threads in P&C are related to Dean. The majority of those are posted by Dean opponents. If anything, negative posts tend to harden the resolve of supporters.
It's not like you're persuading people to jump on your candidate's bandwagon. I'm not suggesting that there aren't some substantive posts regarding Dean and his positions, but many threads are simply gratuitious, their only objective being to bash him.
If you want Dean U to once again become DU, you might consider not posting so many anti-Dean threads. Just a thought.

[LuminousX]

1. Clear Demonstration

That Dean is the biggest threat to the other candidates.

I relish the attack threads at the same time shaking my head that there are so many that are so pointless. I don't get paid to defend Dean, so I won't. He has a campaign staff to do that. Many of these points that get posted are opinions.

I'm still struggling with what the posters of negative threads are trying to accomplish. About the only thing I can see is they are trying to demoralize Dean supporters. It does work to a point. It has run me down with enough doubt that I don't bother posting positive things about Dean anymore because it will turn into a petty argument. Fortunately, the negative threads have only affected my DU behavior.

[w4rma]

9. Dean (nor any other Democratic candidate) will not have as much money

as the Republicans will to defend Dean (or any other Democratic candidate) against attacks from the Republican Party. I hope you'll defend the Democratic nominee and not try to rely on their few and overworked paid-staffers to defend the Democratic candidate in conversations on and off of the internet.

IMHO, in order to beat Bush*'s $200+ million dollars in campaign financing it will take a whole lot of voluneer work in order to even break even.

I'm not expecting Bush* to give up his power easily. I'm expecting a very very nasty election.

[LuminousX]

13. The Nominee, Yes.

Of course I'll defend the nominee. I just won't defend one candidate from an attack against another candidate unless it is completely ungrounded. And I definately won't defend a candidate from an attack from a DUer. That is just pointless.

[w4rma]

20. That's when and where we'll *really* need the help.

:)

[Cha]

12. Clar is right..."negative posts tend to harden the resolve of supporters."

So the "demoralizing" is Not working! :D

And I'm sorry to read that you "don't bother posting positive things about Dean anymore because it will turn into a petty argument"!

I, among Many DUers, love reading your well thought out, illuminating, posts. Don't let those few dictate how you will post, Please. :-)

[LuminousX]

22. It has

Look at the threads that fill the front page today. How many of them are actually meant to strengthen a candidate and how many are meant to tear a candidate down?

Now, I do feel that as long as Dean is stirring enough passion to get people to keep digging up stuff on him, even if that stuff is some random negative editorial from random newspaper that says Dean has failed to properly explain his position on watermelon seed spitting, then I know Dean is doing well.

I'm not entirely disengaged from the forum debate here, obviously. I'm not 'fleeing,' I just do feel demoralized. A handful of people working so hard to paint a negative picture of one candidate is a bit frightening. I don't care which candidate is getting the treatment, it is fundamentally wrong.

I agree with posts that say, "Dean's position on guns is one I cannot support so I choose to support a candidate with a different position." That makes sense to me. Posting "Dean's position on guns will destroy the Democratic party" is just so over the top that I can't even begin to wrap my head around the point of the post.

What is trying to be accomplished with the negative attack threads? What goal is trying to be reached?

To me this is all about strategizing. Not which candidate is better or worse, but which candidate has made what move and why it is a good or bad move.

[billbuckhead]

2. I'll never support a Dem candidate with an "A" from the NRA

We have many more seasoned experienced candidates with far greater biographies.

[clar]

3. Huh?

Your post had no relevance to the topic.

[LuminousX]

6. Who do you support?

If Dean gets the nomination, are you saying you will not vote for him?

And Dean supporters are the one who get labled fickle-Democrats.

[DrFunkenstein]

4. Dean Has Been The Focus Since I've Been Here

The only other threads that got major traction were the ones blasting Kerry's IWR vote. Don't get snippy now that they are not "Dean is keen" threads. Some of us still have memories, and know that the Dean camp has always dominated this forum.

[clar]

18. Snippy?

I'm unclear as to how you can construe my post as being snippy. I tend to be generous regarding all the candidates. You might recall that I posted a pro-Kerry thread just this morning. The fact is that for at least a couple of months, it has been the anti-Dean threads that have kept the focus on Dean. Sadly, most positive posts- regarding any candidate- don't attract as many responses as negative threads. Again, I am not suggesting that there shouldn't be critical posts, but can't you admit that some people have gone overboard? (I think you reached that point when you called Dean a whore and Trippi a pimp, but generally you salt things with humor and a good natured tone).

I confess, I'm looking forward to this week. I expect between Wesley and Isabel, the Dean, Dean, Dean chorus will diminish.

[DrFunkenstein]

30. That Came Out As A Response To Certain Dean Supporters

Who took the opportunity to bring the discourse to a less polite tone. After many - and I mean many - of such posts, I took the opportunity to illustrate the point that others were able to descend to such a level with more panache then they could ever muster up.

And to be fair to Mr. Trippi, it was Steve Grossman that I described as a pimp. But I'm not a playa-hater. I hate the game, not the gamer. ;)

[wtmusic]

35. Please illustrate the point

again, if you don't mind, 'that others were able to descend to such a level with more panache then they could ever muster up'.

In English, please.

[DrFunkenstein]

39. I Was Just Goofing

In English: I showed them that I could do nasty back, only better.

However, when you actually explain it clearly, you lose the whole "smart-ass irony" thing so crucial to the process.

Bonus condescension points:

Panache (pa·nache)

NOUN:

1. Dash; verve.
2. A bunch of feathers or a plume, especially on a helmet.

I was simply saying that I could write with more feathers on my helmet.

[wtmusic]

41. I got panache, I just didn't get

the screwy way you constructed the sentence. I do now. Thanks!

[wtmusic]

19. Maybe there is a reason

why the Dean camp has 'dominated' this forum

[DrFunkenstein]

32. Because Jerry Garcia Died?

There's always Phish, remember.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

37. As someone

who saw over 400 Dead shows, I'd have to say I don't think that's the reason. ;)

[RevolutionStartsNow]

5. It's the price to pay

for being the frontrunner.

Yes it's annoying but the alternative is to have no one talking about him at all. Anyone think that Dean would become the frontrunner and the opposition would just sit by and watch it?

And this is nothing compared to the attacks he'll face if he gets the nom. Or that Kerry or Clark or Edwards will face. Part of the game.

[Rose Siding]

7. It's easier for some candidates to attack Dean...

than to distinguish themselves from Bush and it must have some effect on their supporters.

(Kucinich, Graham, Mosley Braun and Shrpton being the obvious exceptions)

Also, repealing all those tax cuts hard won by the aristocracy as well as some other of Dean's positions, would provide LOTS of reasons for "Arkansas Project" type venom toward any Dem front runners.

[blm]

8. Look at the archives from January on. Kerry got dumped on

the most, thanks to Dean's "Bushlite" accusation. Gephardt and Edwards, even Kucinich were treated badly, too. Forget about about how Lieberman was treated.

Granted, many of the posters who went overboard screaming at others here have been banned. But, their ugliness lingers and is still fresh to many of us and overall, our candidates have all been treated FAR WORSE than Dean.

These chickens are just coming home to roost, clar.

[JohnKleeb]

10. I dont remember Kucinich bashing

No offense Dean supporters but I dont remember anyone starting a thread asking "Does Dean annoy you", this happened to my candiate Dennis Kucinich in like July. I understand you are frustrated but all of our candiates are criticized. Also critcism is different from bashing. I tell you I would support Dean if hes the nominee but he is not my pick right now. I have my reasons for that.

[LuminousX]

11. Kerry was the Front Runner then

Do you feel it was right?

It comes with being in the lead, everyone snipes your back. I didn't really notice it though because I just don't care about Kerry one way or another. Not caring means I didn't bother reading the negative threads or positive threads, and especially not the conspiracy skull and crossbones threads.

[blm]

17. Of course I didn't but my anger was at Dean for encouraging it

with his misrepresentations of the others as being "Bushlite" especially when his record was much further right than any of theirs.

[LuminousX]

23. Misplaced Anger

in my opinion.

[DrFunkenstein]

34. Dean Was Just In New Mexico With a Supporter

Holding a sign that said "Kerry=Bush." The classy thing would have been to give him a different sign, but Dean let it go.

[wtmusic]

36. So now Dean is responsible

for his supporters actions...

Give it up, Funk. You just got an agenda and can't admit it.

[LuminousX]

40. Huh?

So Dean should care what sign was being held? The fact that he didn't offer the guy another sign is a direct approval of the sign? If the sign had read KKK for Dean or Nazi's Rule, then yeah, the Dean campaign had better have done something.

This is a moot issue.

Dean does benefit from people calling Lieberman, Kerry, and Gephardt Bushlite, but that stems from the IWR vote and support of tax cuts. No matter how they explained the Why of their vote, no matter what position Dean says he would take, the black and white record of who voted for it and who didn't tells an interesting story.

It is in a candidate's best interest to not correct the negative impression of his opponents. That is the opponent's job, much like it is Dean's job to clarify and correct the negative impression of himself.

[Cha]

44. Once again you make really good points! Zing!

[dkf]

45. Bushlite was meant to describe their votes

Such as the no child left behind act, the Iraq War Resolution, and the ridiculous tax cuts.

You gotta admit, Dean was speaking out against the no child left behind act pretty early and he has been right on in his criticism.

The IWR vote was simply disgusting to me. How any senator/rep could give Bush a blank check is beyond comprehension and if they actually thought Bush would do the right thing and could be trusted, then I cannot trust their judgement.

Finally, I'm not sure exactly who voted for the 3 monstrous tax cuts, but if they voted yes in any one of those, they deserve the heave ho for being fiscally irresponsible.

[JohnKleeb]

46. I dont think any of them voted for the education plan or tax cut

now if IWR is your thing yeah they did but the guy I support didnt.

[tsipple]

49. Democrats Did Support So-Called "No Child Left Behind"

Kerry, Edwards, Lieberman, and Graham all voted for No Child Left Behind. And, in the House, both Gephardt and Kucinich voted for it. Dean, Sharpton, and Braun obviously did not vote for it.

[JohnKleeb]

50. I didnt know that sorry

[tsipple]

51. Even Dennis Made a Mistake

The great Paul Wellstone voted "Yea" on DOMA (the Defense of Marriage Act). Occasionally our representatives make mistakes. I just wish more of them would own up to it. If I'm not mistaken, Dennis has (re: NCLB).

[JohnKleeb]

52. of course I know Kucinich can make mistakes

NCLB?
I know hes not mistake prone. I disagreed with his past abortion view and I disagreed with the flag burning amendment. Yeah I know Wellstone voted for DOMA and the Patriot Act, you see I can understand and forgive that because in more ways they overshadow that: Kucinich and Wellstone especially. Its not that big of a deal.

[tsipple]

53. NCLB = No Child Left Behind

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[UnapologeticLiberal]

47. No Democrats running for president voted for any of the Bush tax cuts

And I find it strange that Lieberman is now coming out against repealing them, because he gave a very strong speech against the first round when they passed. He is almost doing the opposite of what some other members of Congress are doing with the war resolution, acting as if he did vote for something that he opposed at the time.

[tsipple]

48. Both Kucinich and Graham Voted NO

If you're looking for a Senator or Congressman who voted against the unilateral Iraq invasion, there are choices in the Democratic field. Dean, Braun, and Sharpton also voiced their strong opposition to the Iraq invasion.

[Nicholas_J]

54. Yup the Dean supporters were particularly nasty

When no one else was. As a matter of fact, what got me looking into Deans record and posting stuff about his record, resulted in my seeing how often they flamed you, BLM, and finding their behavior rather reprehensible, joined in to divert the flame rape you and one or two other people who dared to question the "Authorized Version" of the Dean mythology, and so here we are, giving Dean back what he was actively doing to other cndidates for many months before most of tem announced they were even running.

[chimpymustgo]

64. Flame rape. Nick, that's exactly what it was.

At least most Deanies don't call you a Freeper anymore for supporting another candidate (most, but not all). And most don't question your motives for supporting someone other than Dean. And most don't flat out tell you you should just give up on your candidate and support Dean. Most but not all.

[clar]

25. I wasn't here in January

and I think the trashing of candidates is lamentable. That some cannot distinguish between criticism and bashing is to be expected. Still, I've been astonished by how pervasive the ugliness is.

Alas, BLM, I've seen you join in. I know you deny it, but I call it how I see it. And if you've read my posts you know that I'm not terribly partisan. Hell, I've criticised Dean on more than one ocassion. I also want to point out that doing what you despise others doing lends credence to the accusation that one is hypocritical.

[dsc]

27. Thank for your finally admitting that many of those posters got banned

That stands in stark contrast to the anti Dean crowd it should be noted. So what you are basicly saying is that due to the actions of people who got banned, and I alerted at least two of those banned people myself, you feel you can just trash Dean. Sounds rational to me.

[blm]

29. No...don't twist my words to make your case.

I am not saying anything different than I have always said, so there is no "finally" about it, dsc.

There have been bannings all around, but, there was a couple months of some very nasty posting by some Deanies that went far beyond what was appropriate. The mods have been fair all around.

[shance]

43. You were a part of that 'nasty posting' if I remember BLM

The other posters were apparently caught holding the bag after "someone" had initiated a mean-spirited flame fest against Dean. I would imagine they were simply doing what any of us would do when individuals like you throw out cluster bombs and make blanket accusations about Dean, or any other candidate, well of course other than your beloved Kerry.

[blm]

59. Wrong. I never attacked a poster.

And I put up what I think about Dean's POLITICAL actions and words and never posted a personal smear against him or his family.

btw...you may have mistaken posts between Gbnc and me that appear to be vituperative but we are actually good board buddies and poke at each other. As do others here with a sense of humor who employ that type of banter.

[JohnKleeb]

14. doesnt criticism of all of em bring us down

I understand you all are frustrated, I would be too and in fact I am a tad bit frustrated myself. Keep that in mind, we are all frustrated about what goes on.

[deutsey]

15. I don't mind debate and critical questioning

but so many posts come off to me as ax-grinding, especially among those that post negative thread after negative thread after negative thread about Dean.

I really do respect that there are people who don't like Dean. I don't like Lieberman at all and think it would be a disaster if he got nominated somehow. I also don't like Gephardt very much, and, although I was an early supporter of Kerry, I'm not a big fan of his anymore either.

But I'm not going to waste my time posting one smear against them after another, when I could, above all, be out organizing for my candidate and reporting the reactions I'm seeing among people and sharing reasons why I support the candidate.

Just in a pragmatic sense, I also realize that I may have to back Kerry one day (if he should get the nomination). I see nothing about him that would make me withold my support (same goes for Gephardt or Kucinich) if that happens, and I'm not going to spend my time now building up a lot of animosity between myself and followers of other candidates that I will have to work with one day to defeat Bush.

It just doesn't make any sense to me to be so Ahab-like in one's dislike for another candidate (execpt Bush, maybe :evilgrin:). If you're familiar with the story of Moby Dick, you know that Ahab didn't fare too well and neither did those around him.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

16. Scared. Frightened. Desperate.

despairing, despondent, desponding, downcast, forlorn, futile, gone, goner, hard up, inconsolable, irrecoverable, irremediable, irretrievable, no chance, no way, no-win, sad, sunk, useless, vain, wretched, despairing, despondent, desponding, downcast, forlorn, futile, gone, goner, hard up, inconsolable, irrecoverable, irremediable, irretrievable, no chance, no way, no-win, sad, sunk, useless, vain, wretched, despairing, despondent, desponding, downcast, forlorn, futile, gone, goner, hard up, inconsolable, irrecoverable, irremediable, irretrievable, no chance, no way, no-win, sad, sunk, useless, vain, wretched, despairing, despondent, desponding, downcast, forlorn, futile, gone, frightened, goner, hard up, inconsolable, irrecoverable, irremediable, irretrievable, no chance, no way, no-win, sad, sunk, useless, vain, wretched, despairing, despondent, desponding, downcast, forlorn, futile, gone, goner, hard up, inconsolable, irrecoverable, irremediable, irretrievable, no chance, no way, no-win, sad, sunk, useless, vain, wretched, despairing, despondent, desponding, downcast, forlorn, futile, gone, goner, hard up, inconsolable, irrecoverable, irremediable, irretrievable, no chance, no way, no-win, sad, sunk, useless, vain, wretched, despairing, despondent, desponding, downcast, forlorn, frightened, futile, gone, goner, hard up, inconsolable, irrecoverable, irremediable, irretrievable, no chance, no way, no-win, sad, sunk, useless, vain, wretched, despairing, despondent, desponding, downcast, forlorn, futile, gone, goner, hard up, inconsolable, irrecoverable, irremediable, irretrievable, no chance, no way, no-win, sad, sunk, useless, vain, wretched, despairing, despondent, desponding, downcast, forlorn, futile, gone, goner, hard up, inconsolable, irrecoverable, irremediable, irretrievable, no chance, no way, no-win, sad, sunk, useless, vain, wretched, despairing, despondent, desponding, downcast, forlorn, futile, gone, goner, hard up, inconsolable, irrecoverable, irremediable, irretrievable, no chance, no way, no-win, sad, sunk, useless, vain, wretched

[DrFunkenstein]

31. Wow. All Work and No Play

Makes Homer something something.

Go crazy?

Don't mind if I do!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

21. If I found any of the other candidate's records as scary as I find Dean's

I would explain why. But Dean, who was my number two choice when I didn't know anything about him, is the only candidate of the nine whose record I find so troubling.

As for hardening the resolve of Dean supporters, so what? There are plenty of undecideds in the Democratic party who deserve to know the facts about their candidates.

[JohnKleeb]

24. Its still anyone's ball game I think

2/3 of democrats according to the polls cant name one candiate, and only 1/3 can name at least one, now tell me how many know all of them and how many under 18? wow I am rare ok, my point is it is mid September its anyone's game imo.

[LuminousX]

26. Would you vote for Dean

if he gets the nomination?

I always find it interesting that people resort to 'fear' to explain why they don't support someone. I stated in another thread that the only posts I really understand are when people say:

"Candidate X's position doesn't jibe with my view of what needs to be done. I don't support candidate X."

I don't understand:

"Candidate X's position scares me." Let's face it, all the candidates have to have the most mild of positions if they want to get elected. That is why Buchanon never got the Republican nod, because he was so extreme he wasn't taken seriously.

Dean must not be that extreme because he is being taken very seriously.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

33. Absolutely

He's not George Bush, he puts a D next to his name, and he is an effective politician. Those are enough reasons to vote for him in the general election, if he makes it that far. But these are the primaries.

Hey I keep voting for Max Baucus, for the simple reason that he puts a D next to his name. Without that D it sometimes would be hard to tell which side he is on. But come election day, there is no confusion. I vote the straight Dem ticket. When I was a kid I always thought it would be different, I thought parties didn't matter. But it turns out, I have never voted for a Republican, and it is hard for me to imagine a matchup in which I would.

Dean IS an effective politician, and he does an excellent job of image-crafting and appearing to people to be what they want him to be. But I think we can do better.

[clar]

38. I know what you mean

about how when you were younger you thought parties didn't matter. I have voted Republican. And I'm really glad, I've been able to do that. I'm also fortuanate that Jim Jeffords is one of my Senators.
(Now, I've got two independants to vote for)

[Nazgul35]

63. true....

which is why I don't really care about the negative posts here in DU land....while many here are banging pots and pans together trying to get noticed...i'm going door to door in neighborhoods talking about Dean, registering democrats....

That's where the real war is being fought...and I am not alone....this month, those 100,000 meetup volunteers are going door to door all over the US for all of September, in addition to handing out flyers everywhere...it's not just the media that is getting Dean noticed and climbing in the polls...

So for all your Dean supporters....just laugh it off and go out and spread the word to the other 99.9999999% of America that doesnt read the threads on this message board...

[ProfessorPlum]

66. You keep finding Dean "scary" because you keep misrepresenting

his positions. Do your scared little heart a favor and take an honest look at his positions, and you won't have to be so "scared".

PS. BOO!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

88. Misrepresenting? or quoting?

"the problem with life without parole is that people get out for reasons that have nothing to do with justice. We had a case where a guy who was a rapist, a serial sex offender, was convicted, then was let out on what I would think and believe was a technicality, a new trial was ordered and the victim wouldn’t come back and go through the second trial. And so the guy basically got time served, and he was the man who murdered a 15-year-old girl and raped her and then left her for dead and she was dead. So life without parole doesn’t work either. If life without parole worked 100 percent of the time, there’d be no need for the death penalty because I agree with the bishop. Vengeance should never be a piece of this. As human beings, we all want to get revenge. That should never part of public policy, to get revenge, but the trouble is that life without parole is not perfect either and the victims in that case are 15- and 12-year-old girls. That is every bit as heinous as putting to death someone who didn’t commit the crime."
http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp?cp1=1


' Reporter Peter Freyne, now one of Dean's great supporters, asked his readers at the time to "Remember the guy who once said 95 percent of people charged with crimes are guilty anyway so why should the state spend money on providing them with lawyers?" '
http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs08292003.html
(btw, I contacted Peter Freyne to confirm that this quote is accurate)

I suppose if you are absolutely sure the State will never mistakenly arrest you of a crime there is nothing to be scared of.

[clar]

28. Oh, my goodness

(oops, sorry to sound like Donald Rumsfeld) This isn't in response to my original post. It's in response to all the thoughtful posts, both pro and con. (Except you Rummy, and I say that with great affection)
A big thanks. Thanks for turning this into a real discussion.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

42. Sorry.

I'll try not to disappoint you in the future. I would like to make the observation, however, that there is a point of diminishing returns regarding this issue. I think that everyone is in accord that flamebait is a completely ineffective tool in promoting one's candidate. I would suggest that there is not another group of individuals that are more aware of the candidate's policy positions than those of us at DU. Flamebait is useless, therefore responding to flamebait is also useless. Sometimes fun but useless. Since I feel that the point of diminishing returns was achieved weeks or months ago, my response to flamebait is going to be equally diminished. As appears to be the case in this thread. I'll just have to try harder. For you, clar, it's worth it.

[Kanola]

55. In particular for Kerry supporters

I like Kerry and will support him. But from most of the Kerry supporter postings that are anti Dean, I just want you to know that when you post this crap, I just want to send Dean more money. FYI.

IMHO, I think other Dean supporters probably feel the same way so think about your logic before posting anti Dean threads. Are they really helping your candidate???

[Feanorcurufinwe]

56. I don't get it.

You say you will send Dean money anytime you read a criticism of Dean. I just don't get it. This is a threat meant to dissuade people from criticizing Dean? If you have money to spare to support your candidate, by all means contribute to your candidate's campaign. Do you really need to wait until you read something critical before you contribute? It doesn't make any sense to me and it certainly isn't going to stop anyone from speaking up about their misgivings about Dean.

[blm]

60. Why should posts about Dean's record or policies

be considered bashing? Shouldn't they just be fairly "considered" as part of the political arena?

[DrFunkenstein]

76. Our Plan Is To Make All The Dean People Go Broke

Did you know he eats puppies? It's true! I read it on Newsmax.

<>

Too short to be President? You make the call.

[ProfessorPlum]

80. Hey, you read that right here on DU and you know it

I like that picture, how Kerry casts a shadow over Dean like he's the Death Star or something. It almost looks like he's going to topple over and crush him.

[Cocoa]

57. I think you're wrong about that

I think most of the criticisms of Dean aren't from people who don't like him. Speaking for myself, I support Gephardt, and my view of Dean is not that I don't like him but just that I don't see what the big deal is, and I think the supporters are unrealistic about him and unnecessarily negative about the other candidates.

The war issue is a good example, I see Dean supporters make absolutist type attacks against the candidates who voted for the resolution, sounding more like people who would be supporting Kucinich instead of Dean.

[DrFunkenstein]

77. Down The Memory Hole

All the thin-skinned Dean people seem to totally forget that they have been calling Kerry pro-war and Bush-lite and Skull & Bones and whatever crap they could come up with to tarnish him. Of course, it is not just against Kerry but against anyone who comes here supporting another candidate besides the Chosen One.

[OKNancy]

58. You are just too sensitive

As a person who was undecided until yesterday, I can say that it has been my reading that all candidates get their fair share of bashing or critic. You just notice the Dean threads more because you like him.

And, as Clinton says, you fall in love with him even fair statements get blown out of proportion. For example, a poster above says no way can he support a candidate that has a 100 NRA rating. That's fair.

And there has never,ever been the crazy threads about Dean here like they are about Kerry and his military service. Clark has been called a baby-killer, Kucinich a nut, Edwards a slimball lawyer, and we won't even mention Lieberman.

Face it, you don't like Dean bashing, but it's okay if other candidates are bashed.

[ProfessorPlum]

61. I agree with you, but . . .

"Face it, you don't like Dean bashing, but it's okay if other candidates are bashed."

That's a rather big assumption to make on thin (or no) evidence about clar.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

62. Get real.

If a Kerry supporter posts a thread saying they are sick of the anti-Kerry threads, or an Edwards supporter says they are sick of the anti-Edwards threads (not that I've seen any), is it really some fantastic leap to infer that they are not very concerned about some other candidate being criticized?

If someone were just trying to dissuade people from posting anything critical of ANY candidate, that is what they would say.

[ProfessorPlum]

65. Based on the original post

it is not logical to conclude that clar thinks "it's okay if other candidates are bashed." He/she may actually feel that way, but there is no evidence for that. Get real yourself.

And no, if another poster said they thought people should stop bashing Edwards, I would not assume it was OK with them if Graham was bashed. That doesn't follow.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

67. Well you are sticking by your reasoning.

Fine.

However by way of analogy, if I say:

"Please do not cross the yellow line"

does it then logically follow that I also mean:

"Please do not cross the blue line"

[ProfessorPlum]

68. thanks for the logic lesson, Aristotle.

:eyes:

I just don't think it is cricket for OKNancy to put words into clar's mouth.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

69. You are welcome. Logical and clear thinking is important.

Here is some additional material that you may find interesting:
Logical Fallacies
Logic and Argument
Aristotle s Logic


clar said

"It's The Dean Critics

who are turning DU into Dean U. The majority of threads in P&C are related to Dean. The majority of those are posted by Dean opponents. If anything, negative posts tend to harden the resolve of supporters.
It's not like you're persuading people to jump on your candidate's bandwagon. I'm not suggesting that there aren't some substantive posts regarding Dean and his positions, but many threads are simply gratuitious, their only objective being to bash him.
If you want Dean U to once again become DU, you might consider not posting so many anti-Dean threads. Just a thought."

So to say she is asking for anything other than fewer anti-Dean threads would be putting words in her mouth.

[ProfessorPlum]

70. clar: "I think it is really ok when other candidates are bashed."

when you can get that from the original post, get back to me.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

71. It is not an assertion I would try to make with certainty

but it is a reasonable inference from her words, IMHO. Obviously, your humble opinion differs.

Why don't we just ask clar what she (he?) means? clar, are you arguing that there should be no criticism of any candidate? Or are you saying you think people are posting too many anti-Dean threads?

[ProfessorPlum]

72. You are so totally not worth getting into a discussion with

so what you're saying is that it is an assumption that clar thinks it is ok when other candidates are bashed, which is exactly what I wrote in my original post.

It doesn't matter what clar's real opinion actually is. I was just pointing out that it isn't fair to make the assumption and present it as clar's viewpoint.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

73. It is rude of you to insult me.

"If you are going to disagree with someone, please stick to the message rather than the messenger."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

Yes, it is an assumption. An assumption that seems valid.

Based on clar's message:

"It's The Dean Critics

who are turning DU into Dean U. The majority of threads in P&C are related to Dean. The majority of those are posted by Dean opponents. If anything, negative posts tend to harden the resolve of supporters.
It's not like you're persuading people to jump on your candidate's bandwagon. I'm not suggesting that there aren't some substantive posts regarding Dean and his positions, but many threads are simply gratuitious, their only objective being to bash him.
If you want Dean U to once again become DU, you might consider not posting so many anti-Dean threads. Just a thought."

OKNancy assumed that what clar meant, was what clar said, that "you might consider not posting so many anti-Dean threads", and did not assume that she meant other things, that she didn't say, like "there is too much criticism of candidates in general".

So I say, why not just have clar clarify (ahem) whether she meant only what she said, or also, that other candidates shouldn't be criticized either. And you are saying - let's get this straight - in a discussion about what clar meant, it doesn't matter what she meant?

[ProfessorPlum]

74. I'm saying it isn't right to assume

so stop doing it. EOM

[Feanorcurufinwe]

75. I'll keep assuming people mean what they say, and not something else.

[ProfessorPlum]

78. Exactly! Thanks for finally coming to your senses

.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

82. Thank YOU for providing me with a good laugh

[ProfessorPlum]

84. Ya. OK.

.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

85. Last-word-itis... seems we are both infected

[ProfessorPlum]

86. Are not.

.

[clar]

90. Hi Fear,

Jeez, I'm feeling frustrated. OK, let me try and explain the intent of my original post. Here's what I'm not saying: I'm not saying don't criticize Dean. As I noted in my post to Nancy, I've done it myself. I'm not saying it's OK to egregiously criticize other candidates. Again, see my post to Nancy regarding my prediliction to defend candidates I feel are being subjected to nasty attacks. Here's what I am saying, and I thought I said it pretty clearly: If you're sick of all Dean, all the time, don't post so many Dean threads. Pretty simple, huh? Of course the subtext to that is there are a handful of people who's Dean rage so consumes them that they can't stop themselves from non-stop attacks, some of them unfair and borderline dishonest. And OK, I confess, I find such obsession and rage, a bit misplaced and a lot unhealthy. It demonstrates a marked lack of perspective to view Howard Dean as Snidely Whiplash prepared to stride off with Li'l Nell (the dem party), and torture her with Gingrichian implements.

I'm with Bill Clinton: We've got great candidates. I'll be thrilled when one of them beats Bush. To me, that's all that really counts.

Hope this clears things up.

GO DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES!!
MOP THE FLOOR WITH A SHRUB!!

[clar]

91. Thanks, Prof

Though I completely understand that you're defending a principle, not an individual.

[DrFunkenstein]

79. Ever Notice The Longest Exchanges Are Usually The Silliest

Just an observation.

[ProfessorPlum]

81. Yes!

.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

83. Here's one point on which we are in total agreement

[clar]

87. Oh dear, you made assumptions

lacking crucial information. I've defended Kerry over repellent attack on his war record, the stupid cheese steak incident and the even more impenatrable skull and bones accusation. I've defended Clark, Lieberman and Edwards. If I haven't defended Gephardt, Al, Kucinich and Carol, I'm sure I will. Of course I've defended Dean. So you're wrong on that one. In fact the only critical thread I've started is one wherein I expressed disappointment with Dean.

You missed the point of my thread, which when boiled down to it's essence, is that the appetite for all things Dean negative, that is engulfing some here, results in an even higher profile for Dean. OK it's not that simple, but that's a start.

Assumptions about another are tricky when you know nothing about that person.

And one observation (not assumtion) is that too many here are reactive without being reflective.

[OKNancy]

89. and I was trying to be so nice too

Sorry that one sentence got in the way of my point.
*Some* Dean people only get upset when it is Dean who is bashed.
Obviously you aren't one of them ( I've never bashed a candidate either..only defended. I last defend Dean on the favorite song thread because I figured he knew Jean because his of his son )

[lams712]

92. There's WAY TOO MUCH Dean coverage at DU....

...I don't care if its being done by the supporters or the critics. I left DU from April till now because I was sick of all the Dean-centric discussions (& the Nader bashing in other forums).

I'm sorry if I'm not ready to jump on the Dean Bandwagon just yet (Dennis Kucinich is my choice). I hope DU can return to being a place where there are reasoned debates and shared opinions.