Dean responds to Kerry's attacks

[CMT]

the battle is joined.

Snip:
Front running Democrat Howard Dean, letting loose after weeks of sniping by rival John F. Kerry, yesterday branded Kerry a budget-fudging Bush defender who epitomizes Beltway politics as usual. In a bare-knuckled rebuke here and on Kerry's Bay State turf, Dean alluded to Kerry as "Bush Lite" and lambasted the senator for defending some Bush tax cuts.

"I get criticized for saying we should repeal all the Bush tax cuts, we need to repeal all those tax cuts," Dean told and audience at St. Anselm's College. "We cannot approach this campaign being the usual folks, politicians in Washington who promised everybody everything."

He went on to criticize Kerry for using "Bush figures" to say the middle class is being helped by some cuts.

Dean said Bush won't be beat by "Bush lite," a thinly veiled reference to Kerry's support for teh tax cuts and teh war in Iraq. "The way you beat George Bush is not to try to be like him, vote for 'no child left behind', defend some of the Bush tax cuts and vote for the war," Dean said.

http://www2.bostonherald.com/news/national/dean09182003.htm

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

1. Holy shit!

:nuke:

[polpilot]

6. Double holy shit!!!

Dean '04...The New Democratic Leader of The New Democratic Party

[DJcairo]

9. Kerry is using Brookings Institution and JCT numbers

"Kerry spokeswoman Kelley Benander said Kerry is using non-partisan figures from the Brookings Institute and the Joint Committee on Taxes for his estimates - not the White House."
from the same Boston Harelad article.

However, I guess "numbers" must be code for Washington speak. Far be it for Americans to be able to comprehend such complex issues.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

14. It's BS. The tax cuts went overwhelmingly to the wealthy.

The Urban Institute-Brookings Institute calculated that 79 percent of small business owners would get less than the $2,042, with 52 percent getting less than $500. The government defines small business owners as anyone with small business income, including high-income earners who have some investments in small businesses.

......

What Will You Save?
Earnings...........Percent of Filers Percent of All Dividend Income
Less Than $50,000..........46%................19%
$50,000 - $200,000.........47%................38%
More than $200,000..........2%................38%

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/business/DailyNews/behindthetaxes_030124.html


The numbers come from the bullshit practice of averaging the rebates.

[BushGone04]

17. Yes, they did

Which is precisely why Kerry's plan is to take the tax cuts away from the wealthy, but not to take more money out of the pockets of the working people who got screwed over by the Bush tax cuts.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

21. I understand his position. And am not necessarily disagreeing with it.

However, by implementing a health care plan, funding special ed and NCLB, and by balancing the budget in order to fund state mandates, thereby reducing local taxes, more money IS put into the pockets of the working people. There's more than one way to skin a cat. (Sorry CatWoman!)

[BushGone04]

26. Fair enough

You're right that there's more than one way to go about getting more money to working people. I would argue that, in order for either method to be put into effect, one or the other of the candidates is going to have to convince those people that that money is on its way, and that they will be more inclined to believe this if they're not hearing "Well, we're going to raise your taxes now, but don't worry, we're working on getting money back to you." Were the electorate better-informed and more politically active, this message would be effective. However, it's naive to believe that Dean's plan- and Gephardt's as well, for that matter- will not be spun by Bush as (and viewed by the public as) a tax increase for working people, plain and simple. It should be fairly self-evident that this is a losing position for us.

[Fabio]

60. Both Dean and Kerry's plans

offer essentially the same "services" component - like state aid programs of approximately $30 billion, fully funding NCLB and special ed, implementing their two healthcare proposals (both which cost about $80 billion per year), etc.

The main difference is that Kerry's plan seeks to halve the budget deficit in his first term (to around $200 billion from $500 now) while Dean's plan seeks to totally eliminate it.

Kerry also pays for a supply side jobs program (infrastructure and energy independence focused) by freeing up about $20 billion in projected tax revenue from corporate welfare reforms and removal of corporate oversea tax loopholes previously (1997) identified by the McCain-Kerry Reform Commission (see what Tyco Corp. cost the US taxpayer when it sent it's "headquarters" from Exeter, NH to Bermuda. Nice people. )

Anyhow, I see so much infighting on this board about how Kerry is promising the moon, but it's very clear that he is stating a goal of halving the deficit, which frees up approximately $200 billion in spending -- that difference, in fact, accounts for the $ value of the middle class tax cuts of last year. Both plans are not mutually exclusive.

[Nicholas_J]

58. THATS "DIVIDEND INCOME"

Not regular income that is being discused in the section you just referred to. Meaning dividends from stocks and other investment tools. Not regular income.

54 percent of the Bush tax cuts went to the top 2 percent of all income earners. 46 percent went to the bottom 98 percent. Which out of 1.6 trillion dollars, divided among 270 million Americans is still roughly 1600 dollar a year per family of 4 at the median income for a family of that size. Also the wealthy TOP out in the amount of money they get back. Whether they earned 1 million dollars or 100 million, they still get only an additional 100,000 tax cut. So cutting out the tax cut for the rich has reltively little effect on the rich, but returns 56 percent of the tax cuts, while repealing the rest of the cuts creates a devastating effect on the middle class who see an immediate reduction in their salaries but no immediate reduction in the increased taxation at the local levels, so a repeal of the Bush tax cuts creates an effect that essentially will have more than DOUBLED the overll tax burden of the middle class since the year 2000, whereas the Bush tax cuts alone anly produced a slight increase in overall tax burden on the middle class to to the reduction of taxes at the federal level being cancelled out by the increases in taxes at the local level. Any idiot with the slightest ability to add and subtract can figure that the Dean propsal will double the middle class tax burden. Unless Dean actually provides universal health care on the DAY he repeals the tax cuts, he is raising taxes and giving the public NOTHING in return.

[Code_Name_D]

61. Agreed

The Brookings institute uses the formulas give to it by the white house in computing its numbers, when they should be producing their own fomulas to give independint figures.

[polpilot]

18. Good ole 'bomber' Kerry savin' the middle class from Howard's

destructive behavior. And Kerry wonders why nobody sees what a 'savior' he is.

Dean '04...The New Democratic Leader of The NEW Democratic Party

[liberalnurse]

23. That is a knee slapp'en, hot-damn

kick in the bread-basket jab to Kerry and his yesterday's figures. Dean did not even blink to spit that out!

[blm]

24. Kerry is consulting with key members of Clinton's economic team

and meets with them regularly in NY. He has been doing this for the greater part of the year.

[polpilot]

28. Wow!!! That's why his campaign is turbo charged. Without that input

just think where his #'s would be.

Dean '04...The New Democratic Leader of The NEW Democratic Party

[DJcairo]

2. Nice try Dean---

To bad you a) don't think the middle class tax cuts amounted to much and b) insist that the only way you can pay for national healthcare is by rescinding even those tax cuits that Democrats fought to include that are targeted towards poor and working class families.

Hmmm? Anyone else find this a little strange? In addition, does anybody actually believe that a Congress would ever approve Dean's plan? I've read that in an economic speech scheduled for this week he hopes to offer up some targeted middle class tax relief. I smell another waffle coming.

[clar]

5. Eric,

Dean wrote an op/ed piece for the WSJ about a month or two ago. In it he spoke about repealing the tax cut and then instituting certain middle class breaks. He's said this before. That's not waffling.

[DJcairo]

12. So which is it .....Clinton's tax policy

Dean always says "Most people would be happy with the tax scheme we had under Clinton." or is it targeted tax relief as you say Dean advocated in his WSJ piece? Again, I don't really understand his position. You can't call for a repeal of the tax cuts and tax relief at the same time. Unless you're a waffler.

[CMT]

19. Dean has said

that he feels most people would support moving back to "Clinton era taxes" if it meant providing health care, money for education, and the deficit relief.

These deficits on top of the money pouring into Iraq is a economic time bomb. The results of these tax cuts will ultimately hurt the middle class and poor more than any marginal assistance they got from the cut becuz of higher state and local taxes and fees and budget cuts in programs for healthcare and education among others.

[peaceandjustice]

73. hell yes, you can.

To start with, you can repeal the tax cuts and cut the gasoline tax, which would help all Americans. Or offer a per-child tax credit, tax credits for keeping your child in public schools, tax credits to small businesses for offering health care coverage...the possibilities are simply endless. The problem with Kerry's plan is if you don't repeal the entire Bush cut, then the category of what is left intact will grow to include tax cuts for the wealthy. And by the way, even if 48% of the Bush tax cuts are going to the bottom 98% of income-earners, what percent is actually going to the poor and middle classes, or the bottom 40% or 60%?

[PAMod]

7. Would congress go along with Kerry's plan to keep...

only the tax cuts to the middle & working class and the poor?

[Nicholas_J]

83. Probably would be able

To snag enough Republicans in the senate to support Kerry's plan. Dean as an outsider has a snowballs chance in hell to gain any support in congress for his total repeal idea, wheras it was Kerry who pulled over the Congressional Republicans who tried to defeat the 2003 Bush Tax Cuts, as well as got a number of them to oppose ANWR.

Kerry know how to get co-operation out of Congress without compromising his liberal stances. Dean himself has the highest record of non co-operation with his legislature of ANY Vermont Governor in the entire sttes history having VETO'd more democrat sponsored legislation than any Vermont Governor in history.
Denq stance will be opposed by Republicans who will not want any of the cuts repealed, and by Dems who want the portions for the middle class retained. Dena was a dismal failure as the head of the DEmocratic Governors Association in getting Governors Elected in 2002. and is not likely to be able to get Republicans elected out of office for Congressional seats. If anything, a Dean elections would result in a massive backlash in states that are getting to be borderline Republican and cause even greater losses in congress to Republicans.

[Evil_Dewers]

20. does anybody actually believe that a Congress would ever approve Dean's pl

They would if Congress was controlled by Democrats.

[Nicholas_J]

80. Dean has to approach this one slowly

AS it will be the LAST possible REVERSAL in his campaign that he can make short of reversing himsself and stating he would have voted for the October Resolution. His flip flops have not hit him ibn polling figures yet because most major polls released this week are base on data collected before the media started assailing Dean record of cahnging his stance. One more sudden change in his platform could easliy freeze Dean out among undecided voters and cause a loss of some of his support to Clark, whi IS the major Dean threat. Even on DU we have seen threads in which supporters state they are abandoning Dean for Clark, but I have not seen supporters of other candidates stating they are going to abandon their candidate for Clark yet. Clarks entry into th race seems to be effecting Dean alone so far.

[meegbear]

3. The Boston Herald - The New York Post-lite of Boston

running an anti-Kerry story. Go figure.

[blm]

4. So Dean is against progressive taxation. How Republican of him.

And try to cast Kerry as Bushlite when he himself has an 11 year record closer to Bush than any other candidate.

Gee, Howie, how about arguing your point to Kerry's face?

[T Roosevelt]

10. Oh stop it

Just because he generalizes the * tax cuts as bad, and then actually has a belief that there should be other middle class tax breaks (that never seem to get mentioned) doesn't make him by any stretch a Republican. And just how is his record close to *? Since when is * fiscally responsible, and aware of social needs?

You could just as easily cast this aspersion on ANYONE in Congress that voted for either * cut, because they voted for rich over poor.

[blm]

38. Dean can call liberals "Bushlite" with no criticism,

but, I can't point out that his positions are centrist which makes him closer to Bush on the spectrum than Kerry, Edwards or Gephardt, all of whom have been called "Bushlite" by Dean and his supporters for most of this year.

Fair and balanced.

[polpilot]

11. Promising rides on Air Force 1 to Terese has proven to be problematic.

I hardly think competent political advisors would counsel a debate with a 2nd tier candidate at this point. Remember #'s...#'s...#'s.

Dean '04...Rocket Man

[DrFunkenstein]

42. Promising Sharon $4 Billion In Unconditional Military Aid

Is a little more problematic for me, personally. Honest broker, my ass.

[Larkspur]

8. Dean whacks Kerry with the gauntlet

And I'll be in Copely Square on Tuesday, Sep. 23 to hear Dean speak. Go Howard Go!

[DJcairo]

13. Dude, just watch any of his other stump speeches on C-Span.org

They are all the same. Don't waste your time.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

15. Yep. All the same.

Huge crowds.
Wild cheering.
Fun had by all.


Don't bother, Larkspur. lol.

[deutsey]

27. LOL

:-)

[Larkspur]

48. In a couple of those rallies, I was part of the wild cheering huge crowd

Had lots of fun too!

[sandnsea]

16. Clark taking away poor old Howard's attention

sniff sniff. He must crave attention because he doesn't know when to leave well enough alone. He's just got to keep making an ass of himself, can't seem to stop. When he calls Kerry Bush lite, he's calling every Democrat who supported those middle income tax cuts Bush lite. Both voters and Congressmen. He's going to have alot of fence mending to do if he doesn't burn himself out of the race entirely.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

22. Unfortunately, those "middle income tax cuts" came at the

price of shifting $1,600,000,000,000 from the middle class to the wealthy over ten years. I think there's a better deal to be had than that.

[sandnsea]

29. This doesn't even make sense

I have no idea what your point is. What do the recent tax cuts have to do with income disparity, which has been growing since the 80's.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

30. Uh...

It is an increase and quickening of the trend. Disastrous. Do you actually believe thay have nothing to do with income disparity? Wow!

[sandnsea]

32. I have no idea what you're saying

Somehow a tax cut in the last 3 years has had something to do with income disparity over the last 20 years. I just don't follow what you're trying to get at.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

36. Uh...no.

It has to do with income disparity over the next ten.

Pssst: trickle down.

[sandnsea]

40. Pssst

Clinton added tax brackets raising taxes on upper income people and John Kerry wants to put those back. In 1995 the Child Tax Credit was given to middle income families, for 6 years Democrats fought to get that credit refundable and extended to all families. They finally got it in 2001 and John Kerry wants to keep it, and expand the 2003 child tax credit to be refundable as well. Clinton introduced the Hope College Tax Credit, John Kerry wants to make college tax credits much larger to help more families be able to afford college. And a large part of Clinton's economic success was investing in technology, infrastructure, cops programs, social services and the like. Pssst... John Kerry wants to truly stop trickle down by making tax policy even more progressive. Reinstating the top rates and letting families keep what they have so they aren't harmed while the economy improves when he starts investing again; in health care technology, alternative energy, light rail, cops program, city infrastructure and the like. If you want Clinton's economy, Kerry has it, not Dean.

[Code_Name_D]

62. Let me get this straite.

Kerry is going to stop trickel down, by, um... cutting taxes? That sounds like a GOP tune, nor a libiral or progresive one.

[sandnsea]

65. Clinton's 1997 tax cut plan

Here's the 1997 Clinton tax cut plan. Cutting taxes for the middle class is progressive tax policy.

http://www.ctj.org/html/clinton2.htm

[Code_Name_D]

67. You miss my point.

If tax cuts is the only solution Democrats can come up with, how are they any difrent than Republicans?

[sandnsea]

71. You miss the point

This particular thread was about going back to Clinton's taxes and Clinton's economy. My point is that as circumstances change, Clinton's tax policy would have changed. Targeted tax cuts and credits were a major part of Clinton's economy. The Hope College Credit was part of that 1997 tax plan because Clinton was pushing the concept of lifelong learning, knowing that people would no longer be able to depend on one job their entire life. Do you remember that? Clinton would have been pushing for job retraining right now. He would have been telling people about the jobs of the future, like health care and software engineering. And the candidates are talking about investing in small business, health care, alternative energy and environmental cleanup to boost economic growth. Sorry you missed it.

[Code_Name_D]

76. Tax cuts do not stimulate the economey!

Your "point" is an evasion of the fact that Democrats are just as gun-ho to cut taxes as the Reppugs are. Only the names and faces of who gets these tax cuts have changed. Clinton could not GROW the economy out of its debt any more than Ragan could.

But it was you who brought up the Clinton straw man. I thought the whole point of this thread was to talk about Kerry's tax cut policy. Not Clintion's.

I have one question. When will the Democrats start talking about raising taxes on the wealthy? Rather than permitting the Republicans to cut them every year.

[sandnsea]

77. Bizzaro world

Yes Clinton DID grow the economy out of its debt. Where do you think all those revenues came from? Why do you think the State's are in economic trouble? Their economies dropped which cause their tax revenues to drop. Bush cutting money to the States hurt even more. This entire post is about Dean's proposal to repeal all the Bush tax cuts and return to Clinton's tax policy. My point is that Clinton's tax policy was not just tax the rich. And Kerry's economic plan is alot more than just tax the rich.

But he is suggesting rolling back the tax cuts as PART of his plans.

“If I am President, I will rollback the Bush tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans so we can invest in education, health care, and the skills of our workers."

Rolling back the tax cuts of the wealthy and ending the corporate tax shelters, while keeping the middle class tax cuts, IS raising the taxes on the wealthy. And he'll put it exactly where you say it needs to go. $20 billion in State aid for local programs, and more funding for education and new research and investment funding in alternative energy industries and related sciences.

Read it.

http://www.johnkerry.com/news/releases/pr_2003_0828.html

[sandnsea]

44. Oh, and Housing Trust Investment

http://www.nhtf.org/onthehill/senatebill.asp Introduced by John Kerry.

About the National Housing Trust Fund:

"A National Housing Trust Fund should be established to serve as a source of revenue for the production of new housing, and the preservation or rehabilitation of existing housing that is affordable for low income people. The goal of the National Housing Trust Fund should be to produce, rehabilitate, and preserve 1,500,000 units of housing over the next 10 years."

[peaceandjustice]

74. while the tax cut can't

explain income disparity over the past twenty years, it will, if left intact, explain why the disparity has widened even further in 20 years.

[sandnsea]

78. It's more than that

It's not just tax cuts, it's an entire political philosophy that is harming workers. John Edwards says it best, a war on workers. Busting unions. Tax breaks to corporations. Corporate wealth above all else. The business community justifying no minimum wage increases because people can get government assistance anyway. Convincing poor people that their wages are low because business pays so much taxes to support the very same programs that they're using as an excuse to keep wages low. It's alot more than tax cuts that caused this situation and taxing the wealthy in order to give more programs to the poor isn't going to fix the whole problem either. Because people prefer to earn their own way and not have to depend on government programs to survive. And as long as you have those people, who don't get how they've been duped, they'll vote Republican no matter how broke they are.

[deutsey]

25. Maybe the Dems need to be held accountable for their support

of practically everything Bush put up for vote in the first two years of his faux-presidency.

What I loved about Kerry back in late 2001 was that he stood up and spoke out against Bush, even after 9/11 when dissent against Bush was all but silenced. I wrote to Kerry asking that he PLEASE run for president (even got a nice handwritten note from him that I still have and value very much).

Then he voted for all these things that Bush was ramrodding down Congress's throat...although I was against the war resolution, I have to say I wasn't angry with Kerry's vote. I disagreed with him stronly, but I respected that he is a combat veteran and I believed that this experience was involved in his decision in some way. To this day, I refuse to hit Kerry for his war vote. However, his vote on the tax cuts and the PATRIOT Act, in particular, just made me question whether I could support him anymore...and the answer for me, sadly, was: "No."

I'll vote for Kerry if he's nominated, but I, for one, like hearing Dean or anyone who holds Congressional Dems accountable for their rubberstamping of so many Bush proposals since Bush stole office.

[sandnsea]

31. Kerry voted no

Here's his tax voting record. Don't know why anybody complains about it. I'm sure it's very similar to the way most Democrats voted.

http://ontheissues.org/Economic/John_Kerry_Tax_Reform.htm

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

33. Then I'm confused (not really).

He voted "No." Dean wants to repeal them. Yet Kerry is attacking Dean on the issue. Start 'splainin'.

[AWD]

34. Because he has no original ideas left

Kerry does nothing but mimick Dean's campaign, and then mock it.

He and Dean are on the same side of the tax cut. kerry voted against it, and Dean wants to repeal it. But since Kerry does not know how to run an original campaign, he attacks.

IfKerry wins the nomination, will he ask Dean to write his concession speech to Bush, since he won'[t be able to do it himself?

[blm]

47. I challenge you to read first Kerry's foreign policy speech then Dean's.

Next read Kerry's environmental speech and then Dean's.

Then tell me who copied who. The guy who studied and worked on foreign policy for 30 years. Or the guy who called up Gary Hart last January and had no idea what to do in Israel.

The guy who worked on environmental issues for 30 years, including the Kyoto Accord. Or the guy who supported Bush on Yucca Mt. and Sierra Blanca.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

64. Which one?

[Fabio]

70. Your commentary stinks.

Consistently.

[virtualobserver]

35. Using "kerry logic" , we can conclude......

that Kerry wanted to destroy the middle class, and is now jealous that Dean is stealing his idea.

[sandnsea]

41. You're smarter than that

You can figure out somebody fighting to get a 10% marginal tax rate and Child Tax Credit to help working families; but still voting no on the overall tax cuts because they weren't right for America. You know, like fighting for and voting yes on alternative energy amendments, but voting no if the overall Energy Bill is just no good. You wouldn't want a President to turn around and throw out investing in alternative energy just because it was in a lousy Bush Energy Bill, would you?

[Code_Name_D]

63. Did he oppose the tax bill or not?

You say he voted no. But Kerry worked to make this bill acceptable by his standerds by putting in the 10% marginal tax rate?

So he only kinda sorta opposet it while kinda sorta agreed with its core value, cutting taxes to the wealthy.

This leads me to one conclusion. If the Republicans win, the rich will pay no taxes, and the government will go bankrupt.

But if the DLC wins, than the rich AND the poor pay no taxes, and the government still goes bankrupt.

[sandnsea]

66. This makes no sense at all

People are really getting desperate around here. All the Democrats worked hard to get tax cuts for working people. You can work to make something better while not agreeding with the overall premise. Would you have preferred they did nothing for working people? I suppose the Democrats could have just sat in a corner and sucked their thumbs for the last 3 years.

And where do you come up with the idea the rich and the poor will pay no taxes if the 'DLC' wins? What have you read to give you that idea? And are you supporting Kucinich?

[Code_Name_D]

68. A hem.

People are really getting desperate around here. All the Democrats worked hard to get tax cuts for working people.

The poor and middle class do not NEED tax cuts. They need higher wages, better public services, job security, public education, and equal protection under the law, a clean environment, a regulated market place, and a long long list of other things that have nothing to do with tax cuts. The opposite in fact as tax cuts starve the budget, forcing budget cuts in the vary things the poor and middle class need most, just as their wages are being cut, and jobs being sent off to India.

The reason why people are so desperate is the only thing the are getting are tax cuts that they can't eat.

You can work to make something better while not agreeing with the overall premise.

To "work with" a premise that you do not agree with, is a contradiction. You can support a bill, and work to see its passage. Or you can oppose a bill, and see to it that it dies. It is not logical to oppose a bill while working to see its passage. If the Democrats are faced with bad law, it has to be opposed.

Would you have preferred they did nothing for working people? I suppose the Democrats could have just sat in a corner and sucked their thumbs for the last 3 years.

I have news for you. They DID sit in a corner and suck their thumbs for three years. Even when Jim Jeffords defection gave the Senate to the Democrats, they did NOTHING with that power, except high ball Bush's appointees and other "gestures of good faith." It was as if the GOP still held power in the Senate.

And where do you come up with the idea the rich and the poor will pay no taxes if the 'DLC' wins? What have you read to give you that idea?

Because for every tax cut for the wealthy that the GOP puts on the table, the Dems put up a tax cut for every one else to make the wealthy tax cuts more palatable to the people, as well as to make the same tax cuts harder to appeal later on, without being painted as "hurting the poor" by the Repugs.

And are you supporting Kucinich?

Whom I support is none of your bee wax, and irrelevant to this topic.

[sandnsea]

72. Still no sense

Your solution to a Republican President appears to be shutting down the government for four years. The fact of a Republican President is the first overall premise that Democrats had to work with. And it only takes Zell Miller, John Breaux, and Evan Bayh to switch votes and Bush's agenda is through. First you whine about what Congress did and then you whine because they didn't do anything. Reality isn't what you want it to be, it's what it is. The cuts in services were going to come, the tax cuts were going to come, I'm grateful the Democrats fought to get a little help for working people in the mix. Because everything else was going to be exactly the same with or without it. If I'm going to lose services anyway, I deserve a little more money in my paycheck to cover the loss. And your list has everything to do with tax cuts and the country in general. You can want those things all you want, but there's a whole other half of the country that would call that agenda socialism. And that's another premise Democrats have to deal with. It's nice to sit here and spout off when you're not the one responsible for representing ALL the people in your state.

[KaraokeKarlton]

43. We'll give Clark his couple of weeks of the spotlight

Since he's going to be Dean's VP anyhow. It's good for the Dean camp. However, when Dean breaks Clinton's fundraising figures for one quarter it's going to suck the air out of Clarks run.

[LightTheMatch]

57. Sniff... sniff... only for another week or so.

Don't worry about little old Howard, sandnsea. When his fundraising numbers come out he'll be right back in the news every day where he belongs.

[w4rma]

37. I totally agree. I used nearly the same exact argument on this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=42685

[Demobrat]

39. This is good. People know what they got.

I like that Dean and Kerry are differentiating themselves on this issue. If people got a tax cut they want to keep, they can vote accordingly. If they didn't they can do the same. May the person who speaks for the majority win.

[LuminousX]

46. Bravo!!

The best common sense post I've seen all day! Kudos.

[DrFunkenstein]

45. I Wish He'd Say That To Kerry's Face

Or at least challenenge him to a skiing contest.

What Dean doesn't mention of course, is that he doesn't know how to cut government pork in any way approximating his rival. Talk about a second-tier candidate. Better to stick to the IWR.

[KaraokeKarlton]

49. I have a great idea for cutting the pork!

Start by sanctioning the pay of those Senators who skip important votes like mini-nukes and partial birth abortion votes!

[sandnsea]

51. Important votes

I agree. Not votes where the presence of candidates has no impact on the outcome.

[KaraokeKarlton]

52. If they don't show up to vote or abstain from voting

They aren't entitled to get paid. If tax payers don't show up for work they don't get paid. If tax payers go to work and don't do their job, they get fired. Politicians who are slackers and shirk their duties aren't entitled to pay.

[sandnsea]

54. It's a lame excuse to bash

That's all it is. You're not fooling anybody and you're certainly not doing a very good job at hiding your motives. People aren't as gullible as you appear to think they are.

[peaceandjustice]

75. doesn't know how to cut government pork?

Howard Dean left Vermont with a balanced budget, the lowest homicide rate in the nation and a 30% decrease in child abuse. I think Dean has shown he can, to borrow a phrase from John Waters, "make a dollar holler"

[sandnsea]

79. Not quite

No balanced budget. Vermont really isn't doing any better financially than any other state. And they've already had to raise taxes and cut services just like every other state. And the increasing cost of the health care program is also creating a need to cut it. Dean has no magic answers.

"In the best-case scenario for the coming budget year, tax revenues will increase by a paltry $13 million. State government spending is on track to require an increase of $30 million or more."

"In Vermont, for example, businesses paid about $15 million less in corporate income taxes in the budget year that ended in July compared to the prior 12-month period. In the first half of the current budget year, corporate income taxes have continued to decline.

Personal income tax revenues also dropped as people lost jobs, worked less overtime or failed to receive pay raises. With less money in their pockets, consumers spent less. In Vermont, personal income taxes dropped a whopping $50 million between July 1, 2001, and June 30, 2002."

"Up to now, Gov. Howard Dean and the previous Legislature managed the state's fiscal troubles through a combination of spending cuts, fund transfers, elimination of 84 positions and an increase in the cigarette tax. In the spring, they also dipped into the state's reserves to cover an end-of-the-fiscal year revenue dip."

"The cost of Vermont's health care programs is growing so fast that budget experts predict a $100 million shortfall within five years."

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/specialnews/leggie/jan5.htm

[killbotfactory]

50. My taxes will increase 20 fold!

Kerry and Bush said so!

I don't remember my taxes going down 20 times, but if Kerry and Bush say that repealing the new tax cuts will cause it to go up 20 times I am sure they are not lieing!

[MrPeepers]

53. Wow.

All I can say is wow. That's a Bush-worthy distortion of the facts! I'm so sick of people thinking the right thing to do is to do the opposite of whatever the President says we should do. Ugh.

Peepers

[Tim The Enchanter]

55. Who really benefitted from the tax cuts?

My wife and I would be considered middle-class, but I honestly can say that Kerry can shove all of Bush's tax cuts. Throwing us a small amount of cash does nothing. Sure it made paying bills a little easier for a month or two, but there are larger problems, and I am willing to let go of the tax cuts. I am a teacher and my wife works in human services, so we're just getting by. Our student loans alone knock us to ground. What we are seeing is just how the economy is suffocating our society. I see the crippling cuts made in public education and my wife sees services being cut for the mentally-ill, mentally-disabled, as well as services to support domestic violence. This economy has been nothing but poison in my eyes. With a 15-month-old daughter, I want to see someone at least try to make a change, and, if it means losing a tax break, so be it.

I might feel more comfortable if I could here from those of you who were truly helped by the tax cuts. Please share!

[Nicholas_J]

59. Oddly enough

THe Bush tax cuts were Noticeable in my girlfriends paycheck and as a librarian, she makes less than a teacher. Living in a state run by Republicans who will NOT raise local taxes, and which have NO government services to speak of, the Bush tax cuts produced roughly an extra 6 or 700 bucks a year, which is NOT chump change if you are making 30 thousand a year. Someone married with two kids earning around 50 grand received roughly 3,000 out of the Bush tax cuts. Even with the average increases at the local level, they still managed to retain a small portion of the Bush tax cuts for themselves, To people just scraping by, even a small increase is better than nothing, and you must remember that Dean is PROMISING nothing, except to balance the budget ,which is Deans monomania. Every time he has promised a service, he has reversed that promise in the name of fiscal conservatism. One can expect him to be consistant in this.

[HPLeft]

56. Someone needs to tell Howard...

...that's raising taxes on the middle class at this point in the economic cycle will suppress consumer demand, and lead the economy back into recession. It's only consumer demand that's kept the economy going in the first place. Lowering taxes on poor and middle class Americans isn't the problem. It's that capital gains cut, the complete elimination of the inheritance tax, and the 50% cut in dividend taxes that represent the real problem.

As for Kerry being Bush-lite, whose support for retroactive abortion (aka, the death penalty) and liberal gun laws is closer to Dubya's? It's not John Kerry, that's for sure.

[TheDonkey]

69. Middle class tax cuts is an election winning platform...

I understand Dean's urge for wanting to repeal them all but the GOP machine will label him as a tax crazy liberal (when we all KNOW he is not).


This critisism of Kerry was nothing new, much like what Kerry did with Dean except w/ less tact. The bad thign for Dean is that the majority of usa probably is in agreement with (yes vote on war, yes on mid class tax cut, and yes on nclb).

[Nicholas_J]

81. There has been cosiderable criticism in the New Hampshire press

By registered Democrats of the idea of repealing THEIR portion of the tax cuts adn as long as Kerry hammers at this, the more Deans support in N.H. will diminish as it gets closer to the nomination. If Dena does another flip flop, his credibility will also diminish, so not matter what he does, his tax repeal stance will drain support.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

82. "I will raise your taxes" was a good line for Mondale.

Maybe it will work just as well for Dean.