Dennis Kucinich helped us get into Iraq

[audibledevil]

By being a leading voice against it, he painted all the grown-up anti-Iraq war people as wacko left wingers. If he got his ego out of his system, he would have gotten the most moderate members of congress to go against the resolution. Instead, he made anti-Iraq war people look like loony-tunes like himself.

The reason Dean is doing so well is that he was anti-Iraq war, but HE WASN'T A LUNATIC!! He laid out good intellectual answers, not War is evil and Blood for oil crap. A moderate pro-American voice against the iraq war was needed. DK just loved the cameras around him. He does a disservice to liberals everywhere, because he makes us all look like crackpots.

[Birthmark]

1. Now is that nice.

It's not even true, is it?

[audibledevil]

3. By being the face of the anti-war movement...

He made it easy for conservatives to paint anti-iraq war people as far-left wackos.

[w13rd0]

4. He was the face of the anti-war movement?

You must have attended a different march than I did. There were MILLIONS of faces in the anti-war movement...

[JohnKleeb]

9. news to me

[eileen_d]

2. Wow - that post has no relation to reality as I know it.

Anyone else? :shrug:

[carpetbagger]

5. Dennis Kucinich may be left of center, but he's not ANSWER.

I still have no idea who left those people in charge of the anti-war movement. It kept me away.

Kucinich is the kind of guy you'd expect to oppose the war. But he's not the kind of guy who you'd look at and say he hopes we lose the war. Those are the people we need to run away from if we want support from most Americans, who hope we win the wars we get in, whether or not they like the war.

[Webster Green]

7. They took charge...

They rock!

[Supply Side Jesus]

6. Dumbest Post

Ever.

[JohnKleeb]

8. oh youre a nice one arent you

btw I notice that you Dean supporters hate bashing of your candiate, I do my share how about you do yours. Also DK got little publicity for his efforts. This is a first, someone trying to spin DK's opposition to the war as a negative thing. :eyes:
Shoot yourself I dont think I look like a crackpot because of DK. BTW he talked about the human cost of war and the wrongs of war, you got a problem with that? Christ if you dont like him thats fine but to say that he got us in to Iraq is the biggest nonsense I have ever heard and that what Dean's actions should only be relevant, so the fact this man worked hard against this war. This really is pathenic that you blame DK for the war. BTW DK loved the spotlight? he hardly got any spotlight that was more so Howard Dean than Dennis Kucinich.

[Ediacara]

20. there ya go again...

because all Deanies are the borg...

[JohnKleeb]

46. omg man I was talking to the guy not all of you

if I was wouldnt I say something like ATTENTION ALL DEAN SUPPORTERS or whatever, christ what do I have to do, ok I am sorry if it sounded like I generalized that was never my intention, and btw I am trying to be fair. Catch my drift?

[clar]

21. Shame on you, John

I've seen very few attacks on DK by Dean supporters. And here on this thread are several disavowing this poster's sentiments- as will I. Please don't lump all Dean supporters together. It's done repeatedly on this board, in a way that no other candidate's supporters are tarred, and it's wrong. The majority of us are hardly mindless zealots or attack dogs.

[DemBones DemBones]

36. John rarely has an unkind word for anyone and frequently

defends other Dems, including Dean, from attack. He's one of the younger members of DU, chronologically speaking, but often more mature than the majority of posters. And he has been through months of being told over and over that Dennis Kucinich is unelectable, often by Dean supporters. There was a time (a long, long time, unfortunately) when people jumped on any mention of Kucinich as a chance to say "He's unelectable" or "He'd be a good vice president for Dean." This was long before you started posting here, clar, so you may be unaware of the history. Considering the ridiculous nature of the original message, I understand John being upset with it.

Just want everyone to know that JohnKleeb really is one of the good guys at DU. :-)

[JohnKleeb]

42. Thanks DR and DBDB

It drives me crazy. I wasnt even talking and generalizing all Dean supporters. Christ ok I try to be my fairest, and believe me that shit drives me insane, and believe me I could be a jerk about this. You know what got me liking DK clar? He is willing to stand up for whats right, hes willing to support a vision that my heroes had. I wasnt generalizing you guys at all, if I seemed like I meant it sorry. I pointed out that I dont do what this guy is doing to Dean.

[Desertrose]

38. John does not need a "shame on you" remark

from anyone around here.

He is one awesome young man & I give him great credit for learning so much & speaking up. we can all take some lessons from this guy.

And yeah...this has to be one of the dumbest posts ( as I said below...) I don't blame him a bit....

I think the DK & Dean supporters have, for the most part, learned to get a long on DU lately...all we need is a newbie to come stir the pot....


Peace on ya all!
DR

[JohnKleeb]

39. Shame on me? why I wasnt talking to Dean supporters in general

I Was talking to this poster in general. I wasnt accusing any of you of doing anything. I didnt lump you guys together, I wasnt talking to him.

[CMT]

25. John, I'm not even convinced this guy is a Dean supporter

he might be a troll who wants to cause problems between our two camps.

[audibledevil]

27. I'm not a troll

I want to win. DK people are in it more for themselves then america. They know they can't win, and they know they're too far left. I want to give Repubs holy hell. DK doesn't do that.

[lastliberalintexas]

35. What crap

Kucinich supporters, by and large, are "in it" for a better world. They honestly support a man who is sincere, liberal, sometimes wrong (FBA), but always in public life to benefit those without a voice. Neither Kucinich nor his supporters deserve the kind of barbs you've thrown here.

And btw, I am a Dean supporter myself. But I don't appreciate anyone trying to drive wedges between Dems, whether intentionally or not.

[JohnKleeb]

44. thank you so much

Well actually Kucinich's policies wont benefit people like me for the most part however I do wanna do what in turn is better for all of us, hence my support for Kucinich. I am sorry if I sounded like I was generalizing I wasnt talking to all Dean supporters.

[JohnKleeb]

40. I am in it for myself

Yeah thats why I want to avoid my peers being sent to battle I am sorry.
DK doesnt give republicans holy hell are you that ignorant?

[Castilleja]

64. I think you might be right CMT

What a funky post...(original post)

[Mass_Liberal]

51. I am a Dean supporter

and I disagree completely with this false post. Whatever you do people, don't turn this into a generalized statement about Deanies.




Dean 04'/whoever wins the nomination

[JohnKleeb]

59. I dont have a problem with you guys but my temper is more larger

as a result of it.

[E_Zapata]

10. Dean isn't against the war and has clarified ad nauseum "we did it wrong"

He apparently supported the war but fudging on his real feelings early on, he attracted an awful lot of those "left wing whackos" who have made him a front runner. Dean has now gotten specific - we didn't do it the right way. And he's set to send in 400,000 more troops to get the job done right.

If being for Dean means supporting that.....give me a whacko like Kucinich - the *only* candidate who has the COURAGE to seek economic and social justice across the board in all of his policies.

Your segue from Kucinich being to blame for the invasion since he voted NO without the right spirit to get the rest of the grown-up congressmen to follow his lead to why Dean is the best candidate is PRICELESS. Thanks for the big laugh. I hope your logic is indicative of where the Dean campaign is today: lost at sea wandering.....

[JohnKleeb]

11. I dunno

I think this is so pathenic too. Maybe I dont want a moderate I want someone like Kucinich. BTW am I a wacko you sound like my grandfather's hospital roomate who said all dems are communists. Kucinich isnt a wacko at all, he doesnt head the progressive cancus for nothing, btw I cant believe you would spin such a thing like this. I can accept that you dont like him but to throw away all the good he did by opposing this war and to say oh sorry only DEAN did good, well fuck that, that not only is dishonest its insulting to Kucinich and his supporters and those who respect DK. Also Kucinich doesnt have much of an ego. I cant believe how ignorant you are to blame him for the war, so is it Gene McCarthy and RFK's fault that Vietnam happened? Hes not the egotistical guy you describe nor is he a publicity hog.

Zap I wasnt talking to you.

[Mass_Liberal]

52. Dean was and is clearly against the war

As for needing more troops, I don't pretend to be smart enough to know a clean solution to the situation Bush has given us. Kucinich's would work except that I think since we left a power vacuum and a general state of disorder in Iraq, we have something of a responsibiliy to the Iraqi people to put things right (as much as we can). At the same time, we have an obligation not to put troops in needless danger. I ,for one, am extremely conflicted on this matter.



Peace :kick:

[FDRrocks]

12. Idiotic.

If you opposed the war, you helped it through.

This is just about the stupidest thing I have ever seen posted on DU.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DannyRed]

14. Every time

I read this kind of garbage I think one of two thoughts:

Charitable: There are people out there who jump on bandwagons and sign up for "Kool-Aid" from ALL candidates, and proceed to go out and harm the candidate in the eyes of non-supporters or neutrals based on enthusiasm and an unfortunate lack of facts.

Uncharitable: The best thing the GOP/NeoCons can hope for is to sow dissension amongst the ranks, and to break the resolve of 99% of us to vote for ANY of the candidates on the slate, regardless of our disappointment if our candidate doesn't get the nod.

audibledevil: I am a dean supporter, have attended numerous meetups, and am saving my spare change for a donation...and I have been "carrying a banner" at work (amongst the expats where i work in tokyo) and within my extended family.

Your post does you, and does Dean no credit, and no favors.

Kucinich is a principled and staunch proponent of progressive causes, and now (with his change of heart regarding choice) can in NO WAY be impugned or blamed for the Iraq war.

I happen to think that Kucinich, mostly due to the unfortunate and extremely nasty and shallow character of American Politics, has no chance to be nominated or elected. It is my opinion, and it has little to do with my deep respect for him and his political career.

rethink your statement...unless you are a Freeper/Rovian Troll, in which case, go piss up a rope with your mouth open.

As for ANSWER smears...enough with that crap. ANSWER heeded the call and did the job, and got HUGE numbers of people mobilized in a very short time. They are effective. Stalinists, for all their political backwardness, are extremely good at organizing...it's part of the nature of Stalinism.

Give it a rest.

[DemBones DemBones]

33. Thanks for a really fine post, DannyRed.

[impeach the gop]

15. so what did you do to get the war stopped

Cameras were something that is used to voice all parties position. We wanted to draw attention to the war that we saw as something people might want to get some info that might not be the fox version that doesn't want to get out in case it could maybe keep their version and their presidents from being what might keep him looking like he was not being honest. which he wasn't and it is nowknown the lies are making his visions something to be of questionable origins. We have many people that worked together for the comon good of all.

[audibledevil]

28. What would have worked

Is to let former secretaries of states, generals, and the veterans who are Members of Congress take the lead. DK took the focus off of them and onto the fringe left, which america rejected.

[Padraig18]

16. Say whaaaaa?

I support Howard Dean for numerous reasons, but to smear Congressman Kucinich with such a ludicrous charge is ridiculous. Please understanmd something: this is NOT w 'scorched earth/win at all costs' exercise in politics, and ridiculous statements like yours do more harm to D-E-M-O-C-R-A-T-S as a party than they benefit Dean's candidacy.

[audibledevil]

22. I'm not saying DK meant to...

But he through his arrogance did make the anti-iraq war case harder to argue.

[Gingersnap]

61. I wasn't going to dignify this drivel with a response

but DK, arrogant? WTF. That is so not true. I've seen him speak, met him. Believe me, arrogance is not one of his faults. The guy TRULY believes in non-violence and walks the walk. He wanted us not to get involved in the war for purely humanitarian concerns, not self-aggrandizing ones. For an example of arrogance I suggest you look at Rumsfield, Bush or even in the mirror.

[JohnKleeb]

62. humanitarian reasons the same for me

He got a Gandhi award too and I highly doubt hes arrogant too, he remembers his roots and how he grew up. Hes far from arrogant and if you read his speeches, you may actually see some stuff that RFK talked about like peace and compassion. Dennis isnt RFK but I can see that both have or had in Bobby's case great visions as did the late Paul Wellstone who Dennis admired a lot.

[arcos]

17. BAH!

:puke:

[MercutioATC]

18. Yawn.....

.

[Tinoire]

19. Bwaaahahaha! He's your worst nightmare, isn't he?

GOOD!

[Desertrose]

23. This is the most BS post I have seen in many a day

ARE YOU SERIOUS?!!

Did you happen to remember that back in Feb & March the majority of the countries all over the world and a huge percentage of the population protested the potential war in Iraq??

What rock have you crawled out from?? I don't think anyone who was against the war was looney tunes....frustrated..angry- definitely.

Bushwa & all his politicians were on a big "drumroll to war"- Dennis was the only clear voice against it...the others could have voted NO...they didn't . DK did!!

EGO??? No way- easier to go along with the crowd...

moderate pro-America anti war voice?? besides being an oxymoron...where the hell were they?? I sure didn't see any around.

This has to be one of the most off the wall, poorly thought out few paragraphs I have ever read....are you sure you figured this out yourself? Sounds like you may have had a little RW help with this....

OK...this is actually funny.....sad but funny anyone could believe this ...and you had to bring up Dean as the true savior.....sigh


GO DENNIS...you are truth!!
peace & laughter
DR

[audibledevil]

26. The protests were a good idea

But they were done wrong. Real protests are like the kind MLK did. Unhelpful protests are the kind that were taken over by fringe-left groups, so moderate-left people didn't feel comfortable doiung them. I hated bush, but when i went to the Cincinnatti thing on Feb 15th, the speeches there were so far left I wanted to leave. You guys got to realize that it doesn't matter if your against the war, its how you are against the war. The reasons DK et all were against the war made reasonable anti-war people seem like wackos. If the reasonable anti-war people had been the main voice of opposition, it might have slowed down bush some more, since he does everything karl rove tells him to.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

32. Psssst....

you forgot to say that those "fringe-left DK wackos" smelled bad, too. Sheesh, if you're going to repeat right-wing talking points at least get them RIGHT, okay???

[hippywife]

34. As far back as

February 2002, Dennis heard the drum beat and saw the path this administration was taking.

Does this sound like the rantings of an unpatriotic, left-wing wacko?:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/03.28I.Kucinich.Prayer.htm

No? I didn't think so.

Dennis was anti-war before it was considered cool and safe to be anti-war.

[blm]

45. Yep...that's why Dean wouldn't show his FACE at a protest.

He let Kucinich do all the heavy lifting on the Iraq issue while he sat back and counted the antiwar $$$$ that the MEDIA arranged for him to rake in.

It was no coincidence that Kucinich was ignored by the media while speaking to millions of protestors while Dean was pushed to the forefront by the corporate media for his MUCH LESSER STANCE on Iraq.

[Mass_Liberal]

53. They were not unhelpful

Me and millions of other protester and organizers dead everything we could. Bush pigheaded unwillingness to follow the will of the people rendered them ineffective. That doesn't mean we should have done them any differently.

[CMT]

24. as a Dean supporter I disagree

DK should be applauded for his fight against the war. He was no more "looney" than Dean is on the issue. It doesn't make sence to me to be an opponent of the war so violently attack another opponent of a truly wrong headed and immoral war.

Thank you, Dennis Kucinich.

[found object]

29. Q: Does DU have a Ding Dong alert button?

One is needed badly.

[Padraig18]

30. If it does...

... let me know so I can boot the favorable DPRK threads here.:P

[jiacinto]

31. I am not a Kuchinich supporter

but this attack is taudry and disrespectful.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

37. What kind of newspeak argument is this?

Being an advocate for peace promotes war?

lol

[genius]

41. Dean supported the war and his campaigners are slime.

http://soli.inav.net/%7Enjohnson/kucinich/dkorhd.html

[JohnKleeb]

43. dont do that man

They are ok, although shit likes this drives me mad, shouldnt generalize.
stuff like this makes me wanna puke. Christ yeah lets forget about what DK did in the

[Mairead]

47. I agree with John, G. -- we don't need to stoop to this guy's level

And I tend to agree with CMT, too -- I doubt this guy is a real Dean supporter. I suspect he lives sub pontum and avoids billygoats.

[JohnKleeb]

48. yep

We cant do that, we shouldnt. Those who have been kind to the campaign I really do thank them. This is just completely utter nonsense.

[Mass_Liberal]

54. Shut up

You are a disgrace to democrats and Kucinich supporters everywhere. You come to this site with a single-minded will to slander Dean. As a matter of fact, every post I have seen you make, Genius, is an anti-dean thread. Do you have thoughts besides anti-dean ones? Cool off!

[Mairead]

57. I couldn't disagree with you more. G. has a lot of very worthwhile things

to say.

[JohnKleeb]

49. Look if I offended anyone I am sorry

I really am, I am a human being I make mistakes but you gotta understand last night when I saw this I was furious. Thats no excuse I apologize, I make plenty of mistakes and I will try to avoid em like the plague.

[diamondsoul]

50. Um no.

The reason Dean is doing so well is because his supporters organized better than Kucinich's (understandably since they had a full year longer to pull together), and because the press likes him.

Kucinich is not and never has been a "lunatic". He "Keeps it simple, stupid!". Everything Kucinich says is irrefutable, and people know it. That's why he scares the shee-ite out of the status quo.

DK speaks facts, popularity is not an issue. What are you? Part of the problem or part of the solution?

[eridani]

56. Part of the solution

Or part of the precipitate, as us geeky chemweenies like to say.

Kick.

[Thomas Jefferson]

55. Dean's desire to postpone the war for 60 days didn't make him anti-war

It actually makes him pro-war. Everyone knows that Kucinich led the fight against the war. The Dean people seem to be turning black into white and visa versa here.

[VermontDem2004]

58. A post which turned Dean supporters and Kucinich supporters

against each other, I favor them both. But you did a good job of dividing us :thumbsup:

[peaceandjustice]

60. Devil has a point

I think it's true the media used left-wing wackos as the voise of the anti-war movement. I saw a lot more of war critics Janeane Garafolo (who I like and think is funny) and Mike Farrell than I did Nelson Mandela, or Desmond Tutu, or Dennis Kucinich. Which is where I think you're wrong. Lumping Kucinich in with actors, who are entitled to their opinions but shouldn't be treated as experts and ANSWER is inaccurate.
Speaking of ANSWER, why did the media pay so much attention to the Workers World Party and so little attention on the "We Support Our Troops" pro-war rallies sponsorship by Clear Channel, who is under investigation for criminal anti-competitive practices.
Now of course if Kucinich is nominated he will be labelled a wacko. Bush will have the media on his side in it. But that can't be held against Kucinich and IT WILL HAPPEN no matter who the Democrats nominate. Dean's medical career and abortion and some of the cringe-inducing things he has said on the campaign trail, Clark's supposed difficulty in interacting with subordinate officers in the military, Kerry's wife's outburst about him having Vietnam flashbacks, even Bob Graham's personal journals detailing arcane minutiue. Look how they got stories about Al Gore's "lies" to stick. Candidates other than Kucinich may be able to raise enough funds to correct that message, though.

[no name no slogan]

63. Better tell the other 200-odd Congresspeople who were against IWR

I'm sure they were not aware that they are "wacko left wingers", as you so eloquently put it.

Without a doubt, this is definately the



Worst. Post. Ever.