Is Anybody Actually OUTRAGED By Dean's Comments?

[DrFunkenstein]

Dean people - known for their famously thick-skins - are trying to spin this into a opportunity for self-pity. "Darn all those candidates - er, I mean Kerry people - for their faux outrage! Why are they calling Dean a racist? What he meant is actually a noble sentiment taking us into the next phase of race relations. Dean is actually being visionary, but these heretics just want to nitpick over details."

I can't account for everyone at DU, but I never said that Dean was racist. I'm not besides myself with rage. I think Dean's comment was not thought out ahead of time, and that he has probably alienated a huge block of the Party needlessly (a block that he was already struggling with). I had made several comments when he made the confederate flag remarks several weeks (months?) ago.

My point has never been that Dean is a racist - in fact, on several threads prior to this episode I defended Dean on his good intentions racially. However, there is a legitimate issue to be discussed here. There was no need for Dean to mention the flag - he could have substituted "gun rack" or something and had the same rhetorical effect. This shows me yet another example of Dean unable to have much control of what comes out of his mouth.

One of the major functions of a President is working as chief diplomat. There is more to that than getting to wear funny clothes from time to time. As Bush proved with the Asian stock market, the tiniest changes in phrasing can have enormous impact internationally.

Many people took it lightly when Dean called Palestinian terrorists "soldiers." It doesn't seem like a big deal. But the fact of the matter is that it that it does matter. Yes, Dean would be light years ahead of Bush, but so would most house plants. We are at a critical time in our international diplomacy with the world. A concerted effort must be made to renew our relationship with the world.

We are also at critical times with health care and our energy agenda. We need someone that will be able to effectively communicate with what looks to be a narrowly GOP-led Congress. So, while I am not particularly outraged by Dean's truly knuckleheaded comments, I find my doubts about his abilities as an effective leader.

To the Dean people, I apologize for the circus this has become, but I don't want a legitimate point to get lost in the absurdities.

(Well, I guess there would be two points if the African-American community decides to take this personally.)

[snoochie]

1. Not outraged, but he could have used a different symbol, as you said.

It's almost as if he's trying to do that DLC 'pulling the party rightward' thing. Why else use the flag? Why? :(

[DemDogs]

3. Edwards comment on Dean's latest

"ALGONA, IA - Senator John Edwards (NC) released the following statement in response to Governor Dean's remarks on southern voters:

I have lived for fifty years in the South. And the working men and women, white and African-American, Governor Dean speaks of are my family, my neighbors, my classmates, the people who fought together for equality and dignity in every part of their lives. What Governor Dean may not understand, is what the Confederate flag means to us in terms of oppression and too often violence. If we embrace those who display the flag for the purpose of heralding that oppression, because we think they share some economic common ground with us, we then fail to share the moral common ground with the Southern Democrats, white and African-American, who have been the core of the Southern Democratic Party."

That's the point. He didn't say gun racks or overalls or anything else as snoochie suggested. He picked the single most divisive symbol in the South. And then he said it again. And then he said it again.

[flpoljunkie]

6. That's a great photo of Kucinich with the girls in the wagon...

Thanks for posting it.

[snoochie]

32. My pleasure!

It's my absolute favorite picture of him... got it from www.wewantkucnich.com

[w4rma]

83. Statement From Governor Dean Regarding Kerry, Gephardt Tag Team Attacks

BURLINGTON--Last winter--to resounding applause and a standing ovation--Democratic presidential candidate Governor Howard Dean, M.D., told the DNC that "white folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."

In response to Congressman Gephardt's and Senator Kerry's most recent attacks, Governor Dean said:

"I want people with confederate flags on their trucks to put down those flags and vote Democratic--because the need for quality healthcare, jobs, and a good education knows no racial boundaries. We have working white families in the south voting for tax cuts for the richest 1% while their children remain with no health care. The dividing of working people by race has been a cornerstone of Republican politics for the last three decades--starting with Richard Nixon. For my fellow Democratic opponents to sink to this level is really tragic. The only way we're going to beat George Bush is if southern white working families and African American working families come together under the Democratic tent, as they did under FDR.

"In his historic 'I have a dream speech,' Martin Luther King, Jr., said: 'I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood.' I believe Dr. King's vision still represents the future of America. And that is what our campaign is about."

UPDATE: Here is the full quote from the DNC speech referred to above:

"I want all of our institutions of higher learning, our law schools, our medical schools, our best universities to look like the rest of America. And I thought that one of the most despicable moments of this president's administration was three weeks ago, when on national prime-time television, he used the word "quota'' seven times. The University of Michigan does not now have quotas. It has never had quotas. Quotas is a race-loaded word, designed to appeal to people's fears of losing their jobs.

"I intend to talk about race in this election in the south because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together, because you know what? White folks in the south who drive pickups trucks with confederate flags decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too.

"We're not done yet.

"Most of you know that six months before my last re-election I signed a bill into law that made Vermont the first state in American to guarantee equal rights to every person under the law - EVERY person under the law. That bill was called the Civil Unions bill. And it said that marriage is between a man and a woman, but same-sex couples are entitled to the exact same legal rights as I have - hospital visitation, insurance, and inheritance rights. All Americans are equal under the law in our state.

"This bill was at about 40% in the polls when I signed it ? 60% were against it, six months before the election. I never got a chance to ask myself whether signing it was a good idea or not because I knew that if I were willing to sell out the rights of a whole group of human beings because it might be politically inconvenient for a future office I might run for, then I had wasted my time in public service."

You can also watch the full speech in the C-SPAN archive -- when it loads, fast-forward to 1:57:05 (this particular section begins at 2:06:56).

Posted by Mathew Gross at 04:57 PM
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002081.html

[Padraig18]

2. Why start another thread on this?

*sigh*

[DemDogs]

4. New Dean statement and new Edwards statement

Talk among yourselves.

[veganwitch]

because...

we didnt let trent lott slide with his comments; having a D next to your name doesnt let you off the hook either.

the issue IS getting spun because dean is the golden can-do-no-wrong boy. if anyone else said it, the dogs would be set on them as well.

i had a hard time believing his sincerity on race and race issues before and im having a really difficult time now.

[Saudade]

5. Who Cares?

Dean is a fraud and and asshole. He panders and he has a repulsive personality.

So do all the other Demo candidates except Kucinish.

Vote for anyone but Bush.

Nothing else matters.

[DrFunkenstein]

30. Chega de Saudade

There's no need for that.

[George_Bonanza]

48. Even DK panders

I think he's one of closest-to-perfection politicians out there, but even he panders. He was firmly pro-life, even while the Dem norm was pro-choice, until he realized he was going to try out for prez, in which he had to adopt the Dem-friendly flag of pro-choice.

[snoochie]

74. When do you think he decided to run?

He was drafted after his "Prayer For America" speech, and didn't start campaigning until Feb '03 if I'm not mistaken. And also if memory serves he went some 18 months between votes on abortion, which to me indicates that he spent ten odd months thinking the subject over before he agreed to run.

[ikojo]

7. Perhaps Dean didn't use the best analogy but I think what

he was saying is that working people of all races need to come together. I also took it to mean that the guy who has a confederate flag on his truck (a stereotype by the way) is voting against his class interests when he votes Republican. He did not in any way imply that the Dems must take on the race baiting politics of the pugs. He simply said that the Dem message is one that this guy should hear and heed. When I heard him say it on C-SPAN I took it more as a criticism of the guy with the confederate flag on his truck rather than an endorsement of the flag.

He also acknowledged that there were many whites, like blacks, who are suffering under the Bush regime. If these whites who support the flying of the confederate flag looked beyond that then they would see that Dems tend to support working people more than the pugs.

[billbuckhead]

10. What would some expect from someone with a "A" from the NRA?

Need some quotes about race from Charlton Heston and Ted Nugent? Quotes about date rape from Grover Norquist?

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

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[MercutioATC]

25. Have you LOOKED at Dean's "gun" positions?

He supports all current federal gun legislation and supports closing the gunshow loophole. Beyond that, he feels that different states have different gun legislation needs and believes that the states are best able to address this. What part of this do you have a problem with?

[CWebster]

8. Well, you seem to be

although you weren't until instructed to be so, since Dean has been discussing this for months. But then, Kerry is going nowhere and desperate.

Let me tell you something. I supported Bradley and Gore's performance with Bradley soured me on Gore big time and made it extremely difficult to ultimately support Gore.

I like Kerry less and his "diplomacy" of capitulation--always committing to everything and nothing at once, and now his nasty little games. Nah, don't like Kerry. Not one bit.

[RuB]

9. Republicans and DLC Democrats are. I'm not. I'm a reasonable D.

[JohnKleeb]

11. Heres my jist of it

I think Dean tried to mean well and be inclusive but he did it in such a way that made him sound offensive and divisive. I wasnt offended but I dont like that flag one bit, and maybe my eyes are hazy but I think Ive sene people defend it, now I defend the right I guess to swing that flag but I dont like that flag, one doesnt have to be black to know so. The flag to me represents racism.

[madison]

12. It would be a good idea to go back to what Howard Dean ACTUALLY said

It would be a good idea to go back to what Howard Dean ACTUALLY said in his Address to the Democratic National Committee Winter Meeting, February 21, 2003, regarding the Confederate flag (Dean also said a good deal more on a wide variety of topics).


"I intend to talk about race during this election in the South. The Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us, and I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."


Read it at: http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5134

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

In response to Congressman Gephardt's and Senator Kerry's most recent attacks, Governor Dean said:


"I want people with confederate flags on their trucks to put down those flags and vote Democratic -- because the need for quality healthcare, jobs, and a good education knows no racial boundaries. We have working white families in the south voting for tax cuts for the richest 1% while their children remain with no health care. The dividing of working people by race has been a cornerstone of Republican politics for the last three decades -- starting with Richard Nixon. For my fellow Democratic opponents to sink to this level is really tragic. The only way we're going to beat George Bush is if southern white working families and African American working families come together under the Democratic tent, as they did under FDR.

"In his historic 'I have a dream speech,' Martin Luther King, Jr., said: 'I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood.' I believe Dr. King's vision still represents the future of America. And that is what our campaign is about.

[billbuckhead]

13. White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag de

"White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back" That's what he said and no amount spindoctoring can change it.

[LuminousX]

15. No one denies he used the words 'Confederate Flag'

Dear God!!!

[Padraig18]

19. It's not what he said *in context*.

But if you had to attack him on what he said in context, your candidate's campaign would look even more like the crass, political opportunism it is now.

[billbuckhead]

34. In context he was talking about healthcare and interjected the flag

Truly just like Rush Limbaugh did about race and quarterbacks, he interjected race where there was no need to. Truly despicable. Also like Limbaugh, the owner of the Eagles said "What did they expect when they hired him". The same thing needs to said about Howard Dean and his 8 endorsments from the NRA before we hire him. Why would we expect Dean to be all that different from Ted Nugent and Charlton Heston? Doesn't his affirmative action stand sound just like Heston?

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

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[LuminousX]

38. Hmmm

since he is trying to get those people who vote Republican and still lack healthcare...

Good god, I'm not explaining this. You know this.

[Cocoa]

16. I feel the same way about this

Symbols are important, but I don't get visceral about them. But I know other people do. I really didn't always know that flag was so offensive that way until recently, I guess when it came up in S.C.

Is it possible that Dean simply does not understand? I'm actually leaning toward believing that. He realizes there's a contorversy about the flag, of course, but it's possible that he doesn't completely understand that it's real.

This could also explain what I thought was a bad response about the injustice in sentencing, he said in his answer "we can't get all weepy and liberal about this." I never understood what he meant by that, but I thought the answer Lieberman gave at the last debate conveyed that Lieberman understood. I had heard him give that kind of answer before, speaking at a Black collge, the same kind of forum that Dean made his comment at.

[loyalsister]

17. Unfortunately

I'm extremely outraged by Kerry and other candidates effectively using racism as a political tool. I'm very surprised that more people aren't seeing exactly how dispicable this is.
Also pretty offended by Gephardt saying he doesn't want to represent a segment of the population. If a person is elected president, they represent all Americans- even those who have some nasty attitudes.

[Rose Siding]

18. I'm sick of politicians tippy toeing around when they talk

Most of them can drone on and on, striving for that innocuous middle whatever. They end up saying little that makes sense to me.

When you talk directly about important things, you take a risk. I'm glad Dean puts himself out there.

I still understand "evenhanded"! Maybe it's just me but Dean's numbers say otherwise.

[veganwitch]

20. so its much better to be a blatant racist?

and dean wasnt talking about "important things."


spin will not make this go away.

[CWebster]

22. You want to play this righteous game...

Of seeking advantage for your candidate by jumping on the bandwagon of the politics of personal destruction?

My guess is you are most likely a Kucinich supporter. Did you know that he was accused of using racially divisive tactics to further his political ambitions earlier in his career?

You know...I can dig out the dirt. I can quote Kucinich out of context... I can make a HUGH issue out of his history on women's issues.

You really don't want to go there.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

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[JohnKleeb]

33. Look Webster I am no fan of the idea you insult my candiate I insult yours

Also I am not accusing you of playing it, Ive seen people on all campaigns use it and I dont like it. Just saying is all, I hope you can understand that.
No imo Dean is no racist. I wasnt disgusted by what he said, I agree with him to a degree really that those people should be voting democratic. I dont believe in the concept of you insult my candiate I insult yours. All sides do it and I dont like it. I they should be voting democratic you bet. You may or may not have seen the RFK quote I used about unity.

[CWebster]

87. Nothing personal, Kleeb

but there are other Kucinish supporters jumping on the bandwagon.

So what can you expect, Kleeb, for us to lie down and take it? People have to be reminded that this can just as easily be a two-way street.

[JohnKleeb]

89. I am not on any bandwagon

No not at all. I just dont like that way of things. Look all sides have acted like assholes before. No I dont expect you to duck and cover. Well we are all gonna get frustrated here. Personally as I said I agree with the need to be inclusive those people should be voting democratic, I agree. Look I am sorry if I offended. Well then I dont expect you to duck and cover BUT I dont believe in the concept if one insults my candiate, I insult yours, Ive never believed in that, I wasnt accusing you of doing so, I do know of people who do and you know what I do NOT like it. I dont get the need to attack Kucinich because one of his supporters happened to be critical of it, sorry thats not the way I play. I am not attacking you honestly. Also I know what its like to be pissed believe me, I tell you again I dont feel Dean is a racist, most people Ive seen dont think so, I also didnt enjoy being attacked for my personal ancedote but I didnt respond in bashing Dean now did I. I am sorry if I offended but sheesh, fighting fire with fire is never a good idea in my eyes, keep it to a minimal, If this were me I would be defending the concept of the statement. I am netural on this I feel.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

23. Dean's a "blatant racist"?

C'mon...where do you get that?

[Rose Siding]

24. It's spin

[JohnKleeb]

27. I dont think hes a racist at all

I know he wanted to be inculsive and all hear me on that, I understand that. I dont think he had to say though confederate flag though. Just saying is all. But what do I know anyhow, sorry to be a smartass but Ive seen people being jumped on all day for trying to share their legit concerns about this, I can tell you for the record not all southerners have confederate flags on their trucks though.

[DrFunkenstein]

39. I Think You Nailed It In Post #11

I know these things get lost in the shuffle, but somewhere out there I said that Jesse Jackson Jr. said essentially the same sentiment as Dean, only much more eloquently. Which is exactly the point. It is fine to be a straight shooter and all that populist jazz, but there is a difference between shooting straight and shooting your foot straight in your mouth.

Since he is basically auditioning for CEO, Chief Diplomat, and Commander-in-Chief of the United States, I'd say he's done a pretty lousy job with #2. And it's not about being "PC." It's about uniting Americans, not playing down to the basest stereotypes.

Again, this is not outrage. It is disappointment and doubt. And you can try to spin it around and blame all the candidates calling him out - or single out the most politically dangerous - but that doesn't change the extremely poor judgement on Dean's part.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

42. Point taken

And I can see it from your perspective, I really can.

The point of view that annoys me is the one where people are screaming that Dean "glorified" or "legitimized" the CF, which he didn't.

Yours I can understand, however. Dean has a speaking style and inclinations unlike any other politician. President Dean will certainly be good for sound bites. :)

[JohnKleeb]

49. My or Docs perspective?

I dont think Dean glorified the flag but maybe my eyes are hazy but I think Ive seen people be a ok with the flag, I dont like that flag one bit.

[DrFunkenstein]

54. I'll Go So Far As To Admit

That I'm a big Dukes of Hazzard fan. They are, after all, just some good ole' boys never meaning any harm.

[paulk]

21. I really don't know what to think...

I don't think Dean's a rascist. I honestly don't know what to think about him anymore.

Is he a plain talker who tells it like it is or a loose cannon who regularly shoves his foot halfway down his throat?

Is he a cynical political operative using "code" to gain white votes in the south or is he a naive country bumpkin who doesn't understand the significance the confederate flag will have among black voters?

[NNadir]

26. I imagine you would be if you were a Kerry supporter...

I'm not too hopeful these days about our prospects for defeating Bush, since we Democrats seem perfectly willing to eat our own.

I will though support Kerry in the General Election if he is the nominee even though I was outraged by his support for this disasterous war. (Hell, I was thinking of supporting him before he voted with Bush.) Hell, I'll support Gephardt, even though Gephardt stood on the dias nodding agreement when Bush announced his war.

I'm tired though of looking for a sainted person who never says anything I disagree with. I do know that I disagree with Bush 100% of the time. Soon the matter will play out in the primaries, and I plan to work as hard for the ultimate nominee as I can, Dean, Kerry or someone else. Kerry in fact, might well be my second choice. Fortunately, the matter will play out soon in the primaries, and we'll have time to accept, most of us graciously I hope, who the ultimate nominee will be. We do not need a particular person to be the President (when the Presidency is restored) more than we need to defeat Bush.

Although I support Dr. Dean on the grounds that he has a flexible mind that goes outside the box, I do think he could do some things better. In particular, I think he is a little overboard on stereotyping the South and ought to tone down that part of his stump speech. It's beginning to sound condescending.

Both he and Kerry, who is in my opinion getting a little bit desparate, could try to raise the tenor of the conversation by talking exclusively about the Killer-Liar in chief. There's plenty to hit there. I think more Democrats would feel confidence in a leader who took such a tack exclusively. I'm partisan of course, but I think that Kerry in particular needs to work on this. If he is the ultimate nominee, how in the hell does he expect to win the important thing, the election, by making the Democrats seem like a bunch of fractious fools who put comments about decals above flag draped bodybags? Our candidates all need to put their country above their personal ambition to be President. I say that for all them, the Good Doctor included.

[Cocoa]

28. at one time, Kerry refused to talk about Dean

I saw it on C-span, the reporters were begging him to respond to some things Dean was saying, and he wouldn't do it.

And by the way, I'm not sure you read the original post. Dr. Funk is saying he is NOT outraged.

[Rose Siding]

31. Did you read it?

Outrage is on the short list of negatives not included

[Cocoa]

40. yes, I read it and agreed with it

It was measured and well thought out, unlike a lot of "I can no longer support candidate x" nonsense, written by someone who never would have supported candidate x.

Dr. Funk is not a big fan of Dr. Dean, but his post was not just anti-Dean. It sounded like something written by someone that still has an open mind, someone possibly looking closely at Dean to figure out why everyone likes him. I'm projecting here; this is how I approach Dean, I wonder what I'm missing and I'm looking.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

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[XanaDUer]

36. No

Dr. F. has spelled out, cogently, why he does not support Dean, here and in past posts.

He said he was not outraged, but of course, if you think he is, I am sure you know him better than he knows himself.

[DrFunkenstein]

43. I Don't Hate Dean

I just don't like him. I think he is too-often hypocritical and thin-skinned, as are many of his supporters. And I sincerely don't believe he has any chance of beating George Bush.

As far as policy, he is not that far from my own beliefs outside of a few key issues. If I felt he were a fair and decent man, like I do Clark and Edwards, I would probably be more forgiving. But I have spent months watching him scratch at the eyes of a man I have the utmost respect for. And after months of cheap attacks - with no retaliation from the other candidates - I honestly don't like him as a person.

I don't think I am alone. I think his campaign has been nasty to every single other campaign out there - at times even telling outright lies.

Do I hate him and wish him harm? Of course not. And if he wins the nomination, I will certainly lend my enthusiasm to the Democratic cause. Until that time, however, I will make note of his defects as they appear. That is a valid - even important - part of the primary process.

I do not make baseless accusations of Dean. I don't go pouring over his Vermont records. If I don't believe it is relevant to a potential Dean Presidency, I won't bring it up. But if I see something noteworthy, I'm going to express it.

[sandnsea]

44. I hate Dean

I don't know any other Kerry supporters who have actually stated they hate Dean. Just me.

[sandnsea]

41. I'm more sad than outraged

Once again, it seems values are put aside in order to get more people into the Democratic Party. Thus far, we've had excuses on Medicare, AA, guns, nuclear waste, sprawl, progressive tax policy, Medicaid and other services cuts, coal power plants, logging on protected land, and corporate farms, that I can think of. Now I guess we're going to stop talking to folks with Confederate Flags about racism in order to get them to vote on health care and education. This doesn't represent the Democratic Party I know and it certainly wouldn't have me standing up and saying "I'm proud to be a Democrat again".

[LuminousX]

46. When did Dean say we were going to stop talking about racism?

Just because he identified a segment of voters by their use of the confederate symbol does not mean he advocates ignoring racist tendencies.

[sandnsea]

47. He's not talking to them

He's just asking them to vote for him.

[LuminousX]

51. But where in his campaign is he indicating it is okay to be racist

when he is promoting his endorsements from prominent African-American leaders?

You are hearing what you want to hear, interpretting things the way you want to. That is your right, but you are wrong. At no point in time has Dean ever indicated that it was okay to be a racist. Does he want the 'confederate vote'? Yes. Not because he wants 'racists' to vote for him, but because Republicans have used their inherent racism to keep them enslaved in poverty. We, as good Democrats, need to address this, get them to see the light.

I won't change your mind. You have openly stated you hate Dean. There is no room for discussion with people who allow hate to guide them.

[sandnsea]

60. AA & now the flag

It appears Dean has really bought into the myth that race isn't really a problem, just talking about it all the time is the problem. He's said he supported Affirmative Action based on class instead of race, now he talks to Confederate Flag wavers about health care and education instead of race. I didn't say he says it's okay to be a racist. But that's far different than taking it on as an issue. He really hasn't thus far.

[Name removed]

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[sandnsea]

61. I have

Thank you very much. And I would certainly pick Gephardt over Dean, he understands that you don't dismiss racism in order to gain votes.

[mbali]

62. Does Dean think

that he's going to get the racist good-ole-boy vote by talking straight to them about race?

These people don't vote Republican because of economic issues. They vote Republican, even though it means going against their economic self-interest, because the Republican social agenda is more important to them than their pocketbooks.

The only way to get them to our side is to give them a reason to think that the mindset that drew them to the Republicans also exists on our side. And that's certainly not going to happen if we remain true to our principles.

[LuminousX]

75. That is Dean's point

We need to start talking how those social issues are phony, Republican fueled hatred which keeps them in poverty.

Link 1
"All right, the Confederate Flag may be an issue for you, but what about your childrens' health care? There's sixty thousand kids in South Carolina that don't have health insurance - and most of them are white. If you keep voting for the Republicans, they're never going to get health insurance for your kids, they're never going to help your schools, you're never going to get a better job, you're never going to get a raise. Come back to the Democratic Party - the party of Franklin Roosevelt where everybody was included!"

Link 2
"There's no reason why white guys who have a Confederate flag in the back of their pickup truck shouldn't be walking side-by-side with blacks, because they don't have health insurance, either," Dean said.

Link 3
"South Carolinians have voted Republican for 30 years," said Dean, who appeared on stage with no jacket and blue short-sleeve shirt. "Tell me what you have to show for it?"

"Nothing! Nothing!" several in the crowd shouted back.

"The Legislature cut $73 million out of the public school system. Jobs gone to other countries especially in textiles. People haven't had raises in five years because their health insurance premiums took their raise in pay," Dean said.

"If you're satisfied with that, you ought to vote for George Bush," he said. "But maybe you ought to vote Democratic again. Because when white people and black people and brown people vote together in this country, that's when we make social progress."

Link 4
During a frenetic day of events, Dean continued to portray himself as the insurgent candidate among a crowded field of political insiders, the one unafraid to take on controversial issues.

And in South Carolina, where the Confederate flag waves on the grounds of the State House, one of those issues was race.

“When we come to the South, Democrats have got to start talking about race because the Republicans always talk about race,” he said to the South Carolina Democratic Convention. “They talk about it to try to keep people from voting, they talk about it by using divisive words like quotas, which are race-based words. In the South, we have discovered that when white voters and black voters vote together, we all make progress.”

[sandnsea]

76. He's NOT talking about racism

Maybe when he meant talking to white folks about race, he thought he could just tell them to set it aside and vote for health care instead. If that's what he means by talking about race, it's worse than I actually thought.

[LuminousX]

77. This isn't talking about racism?

"There's no reason why white guys who have a Confederate flag in the back of their pickup truck shouldn't be walking side-by-side with blacks, because they don't have health insurance, either," Dean said.

Walk side-by-side with blacks, don't hate them. The message is fairly clear unless you WANT to see it as negative. Which, since your hatred of Dean is well documented, you do.

[sandnsea]

79. No, it really isn't

White guys with Confederate flags should walk side by side with blacks. Keep your flag, we don't mind, just walk with blacks on health care. No, this isn't remotely talking about racism. And if I were black and someone told me I should welcome someone with a Confederate Flag because he was going to vote with me on health care, well, my eyebrows would raise more than just a little bit.

[LuminousX]

85. Where does he say 'Keep the flag'?

Do I have to pull out every quote now where he says states need to get rid of the flag? And mind you, other people are reminding me that it woudl be against the First Amendment to ban the flag, so Dean can't exactly say "Get rid of you flag" as that would be a violation of the First Amendment.

It's a nice vise you put Dean in.

[mbali]

88. If you can read

"you should walk side by side with blacks because you agree with them on health care" into Dean's comment why should you object to someone else reading "put aside the flag" into the same comments?

[LuminousX]

90. Because it actually says "walk side-by-side"

but doesn't say "I support your right to keep the flag." Though as it has been pointed out to me, banning the flag would be a violation of the First Amendment, so what exactly should Dean say? He has come out against the flag but clearly said it is a state issue, which is consistent with his approach to guns and civil unions.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

45. Agree completely doc. Those are my sentiments too.

One of my biggest problems with Dean is his horrible lack of decorum or any sense of it. The repeated gaffes lead me to conclude he simply is not very smart.

[ima_sinnic]

50. what a bunch of hot-air ado about NOTHING

"legitimate point"?? "his abilities as an effective leader"??--of all the *&^#%&*--just watch!

the only "legitimate point" I've seen in these drivelish threads is that *some* people go ballistic over a couple of words: "Confederate flag"--big whoop. These people are so obsessed, in fact, that all else--Iraq carnage, fascist shadow government, billions in stolen profits to government cronies, Guantanamo, Patriot Act, defrauding of the American public, villifying of "liberals," jobs down the tubes, economy in the tank--pale in comparison. The only thing that matters in the world today is that Howard Dean used the words "Confederate flag" in a sentence. Nice to see *certain people* have something so important to pretend to get so twisted about. Guess they'll be voting for Bush in 2004, right? Because it'll be either that or the "uber-racist" Howard Dean. Their pathetically out-of-touch, unimaginative, war-enabling candidate--who appears to have inspired their obsession to begin with--sure ain't making much of a splash, now, is he? Sour grapes?

Meanwhile, the Dean Machine just easily collected more than 300K without breaking a sweat. I don't see this "huge block" of "alienated" Dean supporters--hello, the "Confederate flag" remark has been in his stump speech for some time now. I am proud to support a candidate who really IS bringing the American community together to focus on what is truly important in life.

[JohnKleeb]

53. How would you feel if I told you I do know someone who was quite upset

by those remarks who was a Dean supporter. Yes one person doesnt mean a full exodus but that person is a person, and she will still support him if hes the nominee. That point I made in response 11 is very simliar to hers. I dont think Dean a racist one bit to be honest with you, I do wish though he offered unity in a different respect though.

[ima_sinnic]

56. unity is unity, it doesn't leave anybody out (n/t)

[JohnKleeb]

57. but the way its phrased matters to people

I tell you I think he had good intentions in this, I really do.
Now I wasnt particularly offended, but I do know people who were so. Look at how RFK addressed unity between white and black Americans.

"What we need in the United States is not division; what we need in the United States is not hatred; what we need in the United States is not violence or lawlessness; but love and wisdom, and compassion toward one another, and a feeling of justice toward those who still suffer within our country, whether they be white or they be black ...
"Let us dedicate ourselves to what the Greeks wrote so many years ago: to tame the savageness of man and make gentle the life of this world."
Now I know this is 37 years old but I think Bobby put it good. I dont think he meant bad in his statement trust me on this, but the way one words something is important.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JohnKleeb]

69. Oh stop what?

I had an ancedote. No I dont consider him a bad guy. I am not mad at the guy, sheesh. We all dont see the same way on things and that makes people human. I just bring up an ancedote. This isnt me personally. Christ I dont think it was a bad concept he had in mind. Did I call Dean racist or have I ever? Can I ask you that? I didnt make a mountain of this, I just brought up the point that there were people offended by this. I dont care really. Yeah I really wanna crucify Dean :eyes: why the hell are you attacking me for? I just brought up a personal ancedote. Give me a break. Sigh sorry if I offended but jeez dont jump on my back for bringing a personal ancedote.

[DrFunkenstein]

71. No, This Is What He Said In The Past

"I want to go to the South and I’m going to say to white guys that drive pick up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back of their car, we want your vote too, because your kids don’t have health insurance either."

http://www.medstudentsfordean.org/

[LuminousX]

73. And what about these past statements? How do they relate?

Link 1
"All right, the Confederate Flag may be an issue for you, but what about your childrens' health care? There's sixty thousand kids in South Carolina that don't have health insurance - and most of them are white. If you keep voting for the Republicans, they're never going to get health insurance for your kids, they're never going to help your schools, you're never going to get a better job, you're never going to get a raise. Come back to the Democratic Party - the party of Franklin Roosevelt where everybody was included!"

Link 2
"There's no reason why white guys who have a Confederate flag in the back of their pickup truck shouldn't be walking side-by-side with blacks, because they don't have health insurance, either," Dean said.

Link 3
"South Carolinians have voted Republican for 30 years," said Dean, who appeared on stage with no jacket and blue short-sleeve shirt. "Tell me what you have to show for it?"

"Nothing! Nothing!" several in the crowd shouted back.

"The Legislature cut $73 million out of the public school system. Jobs gone to other countries especially in textiles. People haven't had raises in five years because their health insurance premiums took their raise in pay," Dean said.

"If you're satisfied with that, you ought to vote for George Bush," he said. "But maybe you ought to vote Democratic again. Because when white people and black people and brown people vote together in this country, that's when we make social progress."

Link 4
During a frenetic day of events, Dean continued to portray himself as the insurgent candidate among a crowded field of political insiders, the one unafraid to take on controversial issues.

And in South Carolina, where the Confederate flag waves on the grounds of the State House, one of those issues was race.

“When we come to the South, Democrats have got to start talking about race because the Republicans always talk about race,” he said to the South Carolina Democratic Convention. “They talk about it to try to keep people from voting, they talk about it by using divisive words like quotas, which are race-based words. In the South, we have discovered that when white voters and black voters vote together, we all make progress.”


edit: added another link

[w4rma]

81. I'm bookmarking your post, LuminousX. It's very well researched!

Thanks!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=74329&mesg_id=74577

[DrFunkenstein]

82. I Find Those Comments Much More Impressive

Although #2 seems to be ducking the issue of the day, these are much more compelling statements in general. But clearly not something you can shorthand like he has.

[DrFunkenstein]

59. I Guess This Would Be The Very First Point I Made

"Dean people - known for their famously thick-skins - are trying to spin this into a opportunity for self-pity."

Perhaps my best DU experience ever was debating for what must have been 300 posts with Professor Plum, a strong Dean supporter, over the IWR vote. No names called, no snide remarks about the candidates, just two guys (well, actually there was a ton of people) going toe to toe on one of the great issues of the race. Each of us struggled to see the others point, while remaining committed to our own positions. I suppose it ended in a draw, but we came away with alot of respect for each other.

He doesn't show up much anymore and I am almost glad for it. DU has really become a zoo. I suppose it always was. There were always comments like "Their pathetically out-of-touch, unimaginative, war-enabling candidate--who appears to have inspired their obsession to begin with--sure ain't making much of a splash, now, is he?"

For months I took comments like that, as did people like blm, and argued out logically why they weren't true. The months added up, and when the other candidates finally started hitting back, I was shocked by how thin-skinned the Dean supporters were. I think the sheer hypocrisy got to me, and I got distinctly nastier from that point on.

With all honesty, I regret it. It didn't forward Kerry's candidacy any, and I kind of let myself down. I let the worst elements of Dean's support obscure people like Professor Plum. Which is a shame. It really is.

I was just looking at an old bookmark called "Kerry, Dean and Kucinich Supporters Must Stand Together." Looking back, it seems almost comically naive, if it weren't sad.

As I've said, I will still call Dean out when I think he's done wrong, but I think maybe I should try to get back to that place where we still remembered that we were all Democrats.

[KittyWampus]

52. If You Want To Appeal To Voters

Whether they are rednecks, bluenecks or no-necks, why the heck don't you just address them DIRECTLY?

What the heck is Dean doing talking to his rank and file ABOUT getting confederate-decal Voters to vote form him?

If Dean was TRULY interested in getting those people into his camp he would have framed his statements in a way that did NOT make those people sound like objects rather than people with their own opinions.

If Dean sincerely wanted to get those votes, we can only surmise that his strategy SUCKED.

[LuminousX]

58. Because

Dean is saying Republicans have put these people into poverty and then told them the povery existed because of blacks and liberals - feeding and creating racism for their polical gain. Dean isn't just talking about getting their votes, he is talking about ending the cycle of racism the Republicans create.

But, you know, it is far easier to bash than to understand.

[mbali]

63. When did Dean say any of that?

"Dean is saying Republicans have put these people into poverty and then told them the povery existed because of blacks and liberals - feeding and creating racism for their polical gain."

If Dean had said that, he wouldn't be trying to extract his foot from his mouth.

Dean fans' willingness to twist themselves into such contortions to defend their guy is sweet, but you'd probably do him more good by just admitting that he blew this one.

[DrFunkenstein]

64. Agreed

A press conference saying what LuminousX just said (and not as a reaction) would have been actually fairly impressive. But it remains a gaffe as it stands.

[LuminousX]

68. Dudes, Where have you been?

Regarding Dean's remarks in South Carolina made in May, 2003

Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean argues flatly in his stump speech that rural white voters need to put divisive social issues aside and recognize that Repub-licans haven't helped them keep their jobs or get health insurance.

[DrFunkenstein]

70. This Is What He Said

"I want to go to the South and I’m going to say to white guys that drive pick up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back of their car, we want your vote too, because your kids don’t have health insurance either."

http://www.medstudentsfordean.org/

That doesn't exactly sound like Dr. Martin Luther King to me.

[LuminousX]

72. Reporters seem to have understood the greater message

But so many on DU can't. Makes me wonder. Oh, no it doesn't. It require extrapolation of thought and not cherry picking his statements but looking at them as a whole. That is only something you do if you truly want to consider a candidate and a candidate's position instead of torpedoing the candidate.

Link 1
"All right, the Confederate Flag may be an issue for you, but what about your childrens' health care? There's sixty thousand kids in South Carolina that don't have health insurance - and most of them are white. If you keep voting for the Republicans, they're never going to get health insurance for your kids, they're never going to help your schools, you're never going to get a better job, you're never going to get a raise. Come back to the Democratic Party - the party of Franklin Roosevelt where everybody was included!"

Link 2
"There's no reason why white guys who have a Confederate flag in the back of their pickup truck shouldn't be walking side-by-side with blacks, because they don't have health insurance, either," Dean said.

Link 3
"South Carolinians have voted Republican for 30 years," said Dean, who appeared on stage with no jacket and blue short-sleeve shirt. "Tell me what you have to show for it?"

"Nothing! Nothing!" several in the crowd shouted back.

"The Legislature cut $73 million out of the public school system. Jobs gone to other countries especially in textiles. People haven't had raises in five years because their health insurance premiums took their raise in pay," Dean said.

"If you're satisfied with that, you ought to vote for George Bush," he said. "But maybe you ought to vote Democratic again. Because when white people and black people and brown people vote together in this country, that's when we make social progress."

Link 4
During a frenetic day of events, Dean continued to portray himself as the insurgent candidate among a crowded field of political insiders, the one unafraid to take on controversial issues.

And in South Carolina, where the Confederate flag waves on the grounds of the State House, one of those issues was race.

“When we come to the South, Democrats have got to start talking about race because the Republicans always talk about race,” he said to the South Carolina Democratic Convention. “They talk about it to try to keep people from voting, they talk about it by using divisive words like quotas, which are race-based words. In the South, we have discovered that when white voters and black voters vote together, we all make progress.”


edit: added another link

[KittyWampus]

65. Actions Speak Louder Than Words

So you admit that all Dean was doing was talking to his rank and file? That this comment was aimed at them and NOT the very people he is talking about?

Does Dean really believe that talking ABOUT about a certain segment of the public, who are NOT THERE, will get those very people to vote for him?

Again, IF HE WANTED TO REACH OUT TO A CERTAIN SEGMENT HE SHOULD DO SO DIRECTLY!

And if he wanted to talk about these issues with his rank and file then he did a piss poor job of choosing his words.

Cause his statement AS HE MADE IT sure isn't going to attract any confederate flag loving types.

[DrFunkenstein]

66. I See Your Point

That Dean is defining these people by the flag they bear, not to score points with them, but to score points with people who have their own fantasies of them. Hmmm. Something to mull over.

[billbuckhead]

78. So this is the way Dean is going to talk about race?

If Dean sees southern rednecks as being this caricature, what other caricatures does he maintain?

[LuminousX]

80. THIS is how he is talking about race

Link 1
"All right, the Confederate Flag may be an issue for you, but what about your childrens' health care? There's sixty thousand kids in South Carolina that don't have health insurance - and most of them are white. If you keep voting for the Republicans, they're never going to get health insurance for your kids, they're never going to help your schools, you're never going to get a better job, you're never going to get a raise. Come back to the Democratic Party - the party of Franklin Roosevelt where everybody was included!"

Link 2
"There's no reason why white guys who have a Confederate flag in the back of their pickup truck shouldn't be walking side-by-side with blacks, because they don't have health insurance, either," Dean said.

Link 3
"South Carolinians have voted Republican for 30 years," said Dean, who appeared on stage with no jacket and blue short-sleeve shirt. "Tell me what you have to show for it?"

"Nothing! Nothing!" several in the crowd shouted back.

"The Legislature cut $73 million out of the public school system. Jobs gone to other countries especially in textiles. People haven't had raises in five years because their health insurance premiums took their raise in pay," Dean said.

"If you're satisfied with that, you ought to vote for George Bush," he said. "But maybe you ought to vote Democratic again. Because when white people and black people and brown people vote together in this country, that's when we make social progress."

Link 4
During a frenetic day of events, Dean continued to portray himself as the insurgent candidate among a crowded field of political insiders, the one unafraid to take on controversial issues.

And in South Carolina, where the Confederate flag waves on the grounds of the State House, one of those issues was race.

“When we come to the South, Democrats have got to start talking about race because the Republicans always talk about race,” he said to the South Carolina Democratic Convention. “They talk about it to try to keep people from voting, they talk about it by using divisive words like quotas, which are race-based words. In the South, we have discovered that when white voters and black voters vote together, we all make progress.”

[RogueTrooper]

84. Outraged?

No, why should we be?

[mmonk]

86. Not outraged,

I'm quite used to stereotyping being from the south. I think it will hurt him to a small degree in making headway in the south. That being said, he isn't racist, trying to offend, etc. I don't know how the imagery used can be defended other than expressing that it was a gaffe (or pleading ignorance which would make it look worse).