Where did the Confederate Flag come from?

[KaraokeKarlton]

Learn here:

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/confederate3.html

It's time to recognize that just like Bush and the religious right have attempted to hijack the American flag and define what it does and doesn't stand for, hate groups like the KKK have hijacked the Confederate Battle flag and are defining what it does and doesn't stand for. How SAD so many would allow them to do such a thing. Personally, I think it's really dumb to give that kind of power and influence to those few hate filled individuals.

To many southerners whose ancestors fought and died in the Civil war, that battle flag is a very important piece of their history. The Civil War wasn't all about slavery. Men died and it wasn't usually the wealthy plantation owners who were fighting. The ancestors of those people feel a connection to the flag that flew in the battles their family fought and died in. And rightly, they should be allowed to hold that flag dear to their hearts for that very reason. Anyone who blindly screams "racism" is being close minded because there are far more meanings behind that Rebel flag than what some ignorant hate group would have people believe.

[DrFunkenstein]

1. No One Questions There Are Many Meanings

The problem is with one sort of obvious meaning - the division of the United States to maintain chattel slavery.

Just like the soldiers that die for this unnecessary war, you can respect the warrior and question the war.

[KaraokeKarlton]

5. But the flag in question was adopted to prevent friendly fire

on both sides. The flag came to be during the war, and was a symbol of the battlefield, not of what the fight was over.

No one denies that racism still exists in the south. It still exists all over the country and no race is innocent of being biased against other races. The battle flag has absolutely nothing to do with it. There are plenty of people who love that flag who aren't racists and there are plenty of people who couldn't care less about the flag that are racists. So why the hell is anyone here allowing groups like the KKK the ability to change the meaning and definition of a flag adopted to prevent both Union and Confederate soldiers from shooting their own? It's ridiculous, in my opinion.

[billbuckhead]

2. More defense of the Confederate flag on DU. Is this Bizarro world?

The Nazi flag was a piece of history too and it often is paired with the Confederate flag. America deserves George W Bush if this is the best Democrats can come up with. A candidate who says he wants the support of people with American flags on their trucks is ridiculed at the expense of the one who wants the support those who have the Confederate flag.

[Hieronymus]

3. I agree,

and I am a Democrat.
:kick:

[bluestateguy]

4. It was just a battle flag in the Civil War

but of course became a symbol of resistence, or battle, against the federal government's racial integration efforts. That's what it has meant for almost 50 years now, and in any event, I don't think the cause of the Southern confederacy was a cause worth celebrating.

[KaraokeKarlton]

8. It means that to groups like the KKK, but not to the average southerner

So tell me, at what point did we give that much power to hate groups? And better yet, WHY is ANYONE letting the KKK define ANYTHING? Now THAT is bizarre.

[sandnsea]

6. Oh please let's not go here

I cannot believe there are so many who are willing to offend the entire African-American race just to defend Dean.

The same poor white people who died in that war to defend some trumped up notion of 'the Southern way of life' are the same poor white people who are waving that flag today and voting Republican for some trumped up notion of 'Southern Pride'. Back then it was to keep the slaves on the plantation, today it's to keep the blacks from taking their jobs and education. If we really want to talk about race, then we really need to confront the lies about that flag and the lies that perpetuate the fear of minorities, century after century. It's got to stop.

[KaraokeKarlton]

10. Didn't a lot of African Americans die in the Civil War too?

n/t

[sandnsea]

11. Point?

???

[KaraokeKarlton]

17. The flag in question was adopted on the battlefield

The reason it was adopted was to help BOTH sides avoid shooting their own soldiers due to confusion over the flags looking so much alike. When a soldier today dies, what is given to their family? An American flag. On memorial day and veterans day, how do we honor those who have died in battle? We fly the flag. That battle flag didn't catch on because the south wanted to oppress blacks. The battle flag caught on because it was a symbol and memorial of those southern men who died while flying that particular flag. Sure, hate groups fly the same flag in a sick attempt to mislead everyone that they are in some way legitimate and associated with the battle flag, but it's no different than the way the religious right hides behind the bible and tries to convince people that they are more legitimate by "having God on their side". Aren't we smarter than this? Why are so many people falling for this kind of nonsense? Don't we have bigger fish to fry? I think we do.

[sandnsea]

18. What's this got to do with anything?

What's it got to do with what the war was about? What's it got to do with the flag being resurrected in the 50's? What's it got to do with blacks fighting in the Civil War?

And no, we most certainly do not have bigger fish to fry than ending racism. That's the whole point!

[paulk]

7. It wasn't just the KKK that hijacked the Battle flag

The "Southern Cross" first went up over the State House of South Carolina in 1962 - as a direct result of civil rights legislation and as a symbol of opposition to that legislation.

The flag has since come to be viewed as a racist symbol, especially by blacks. Howard Dean has set himself a daunting task if he intends to woo black voters by invoking that symbol.

[LuminousX]

9. It is a symbol of racism

No matter what it once stood for, much like the Swastika, it has one major meaning. Yes, during the 70's/80's it was displayed as the sign of a 'rebel' but in today's world, it is a racist symbol.

We do need to educate people regarding it. Not everyone who displays it is racist though.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

12. Where did the Swastika come from?

This postcard, copyright 1907 by E. Phillips, a U.S. card publisher, speaks for the universally high regard in which the swastika was held as a good luck token before use by the Nazis corrupted its meaning.

<image snipped, follow link to view>

The text on the card back reads:

GOOD LUCK EMBLEM
"The Swastika" is the oldest cross and emblem in the world. It forms a combination of four "L's" standing for Luck, Light, Love and Life. It has been found in ancient Rome, excavations in Grecian cities, on Buddhist idols, on Chinese coins dated 315 B.C., and our own Southwest Indians use it as an amulet.

It is claimed that the Mound Builders and Cliff Dwellers of Mexico, Central America consider "The Swastika" a charm to drive away evil and bring good luck, long life and prosperity to the possessor.
http://www.luckymojo.com/swastika.html

Maybe it's time to reclaim the swastika as a good luck emblem. :puke:

[DrFunkenstein]

13. The Original Meaning Is The Only Meaning

:puffpiece:

[paulk]

26. the swastika is a very old symbol, the Nazi's got their version from India

The word "swastika" (svasti) comes from the sanskrit, and means "condusive to well being" . The Nazis appropriated it because of the Aryan tribes which settled Iran and northern India, a people who considered themselves superior in being and culture, and whom the Nazis considered their progenitors. Actually, the symbol adopted by the Nazis is more properly called the swavastika, or backwards swastika, since it is reversed from the swastika symbol still used in the Hindu, Buddhist, and Jainist religions

The swastika is an archetypical cultural symbol. It's really too bad the Nazi's perverted it.

[DrFunkenstein]

14. Cognitive Dissonance

<>

[genius]

15. The widthrawal from the Union was racist.

Lincoln was elected and they knew he opposed slavery. That is the real reason they withdrew and any other excuses are double-speak. Slavery was wrong. In fact it was absolutely horrible. The Confederacy was wrong. To take pride in symbols of racism is sick and the African-Americans should not be subjected to this outrage.

[JohnKleeb]

16. Yep

A disgrace in our nations history= slavery to say the least. I tell you, I dont like that flag. I tell you, my ancestor from the 123rd Pennsylvania I dont know what he fought for but it was a good cause I think rather than what the confederates fought for, he was there when Bobby Lee was winning, thank god the tide turned.

[KaraokeKarlton]

20. Okay, everyone who doesn't have native American blood needs to leave

the USA. Every damn one of us have ancestors who are guilty of doing something wrong. So I guess we are all racist bastards and the US flag is evil to fly because this country really belongs to the Indians. It's blasphemy!

[sandnsea]

22. We are racist bastards

And people of color all over the world hate our flag because of it. And if we don't get our heads out of our collective asses and admit it, it's only going to get worse. Let's start with the truth about the confederate flag and go from there.

[JohnKleeb]

23. Thats not what I mean

I think the confederate flag is in a way racist. On the KKK, that was formed after the civil war and a lot of the founders were Confederate veterans. I am just saying that in many ways it is racist. It is true that many Southern capitols started having the flag on the courthouses due to the integration policies proposed.

[DrFunkenstein]

28. India Invaded America?

When did they take it over?

[SahaleArm]

31. When in doubt...

revise:)?

[Punkingal]

19. Here is some more information on the confederate flag....

Confederate Flags of the New South
The Confederate battle flag is incorporated into several state flags

by Borgna Brunner

There is a misperception that in a number of Southern states some version of the Confederate flag had been flown without interruption since the Civil War. For the most part, the Southern states that raised the Confederate battle flag or incorporated it into their state flag did so during the 1950s and 1960s, in a defiant stand against integration. Denmark Groover, the Georgia House floor leader who in 1956 sponsored the legislation to add the Southern Cross into the state flag, has freely admitted as much. He maintains that he and many of Georgia's legislators at the time were staunch segregationists who had urged that the Confederate symbol be added to the flag as a protest against federal integration orders. In 2001, 45 years later, Groover, now retired, again voiced his opinion on Georgia's flag, this time advocating that the divisive symbol be removed.

snip

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/confederate2.html

[KaraokeKarlton]

21. So one guy lobbied to hijack a battle flag

and all southerners who display it are of the same mind of this guy and those who helped him? I guess that means that it's true that the US flag only belongs to people who support Bush and the religious right simply because that's how those in power act? Come on, people here are smarter than that, aren't they?

[Punkingal]

24. If you go to the link.....

you will see that this is not about one guy. There are several states who incorporated it into their flag, and they did it to show opposition to segregation. I grew up in the south. I lived there until 1986. I know what that flag symbolizes today, and it is a symbol of racism. And don't put words in my mouth. I said nothing about the American flag, and this thread is not about the Stars and Stripes. ( And I am not talking about what Dean said about people who have the flag on their trucks, and I am not suggesting he is a racist, or meant any thing like that in what he said.) All I am talking about here is the Confederate flag, and what it is a symbol of, here and now. And what it symbolizes in today's world is ugly, racist, and INDEFENSIBLE.

[KaraokeKarlton]

34. We know there's more than one racist

But we also are smart enough to know that there are also plenty of people who aren't racist. It's wrong to just assume that everyone in the south is a racist, regardless of how they feel about the Confederate Battle Flag. Assuming that is unfair bias, and not any better than being biased against blacks. Most politicians in the US supported going to war with Iraq too...but that doesn't mean everyone they represent are war mongers. Racism and such things are bad, no one denies that. It's just as bad to allow such people to define what anything does or doesn't mean.

Do I like or condone racism...absolutely not. Do I think the battle flag is a cause worthy of such hysteria as is being seen on DU? No. Why? Because the flag DOES have a very significant and historical meaning to southerners whose relatives died on the battlefield. Just because it's common for bigoted people to hide behind things like flags and the bible doesn't make those things they hide behind evil.

[Punkingal]

43. I don't assume everyone in the South is racist.....

since I am Southern, and I am not racist. For that matter, there racists everywhere, but we are talking about the south, and a flag that was co-opted to become a racist symbol. Being one of those southerners, whose relatives died on a battlefield, I resent the flag becoming a symbol of racism. But that is what it is.

[DrFunkenstein]

29. Can You Comment On Post #14 Please?

I'd like to know what you think of Tom Tomorrow's take on things.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

46. And yet more here..

"Note: It is necessary to disclaim any connection of these flags to neo-nazis, red-necks, skin-heads and the like. These groups have adopted this flag and desecrated it by their acts. They have no right to use this flag - it is a flag of honor, designed by the confederacy as a banner representing state's rights and still revered by the South. In fact, under attack, it still flies over the South Carolina capitol building. The South denies any relation to these hate groups and denies them the right to use the flags of the confederacy for any purpose. The crimes committed by these groups under the stolen banner of the conderacy only exacerbate the lies which link the seccesion to slavery interests when, from a Southerner's view, the cause was state's rights."

http://www.usflag.org/confederate.stars.and.bars.html

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Punkingal]

27. With regard to the flag being used in reenactments,

or displayed at a historic site, I have no problem, because the Civil War is part of our history. And I have a very famous ancestor who was a General, you might say THE southern General. And as with any family, my family is proud of our ancestors. But I have no illusions about what that flag has come to symbolize to the people who display it, not the people who have it because of family history. I hate racism worse than anything. When I was 10 years old, I was riding the bus from my home town to visit my sister in Nashville, and in a town about 20 miles from Nashville, a black woman and her son got on the bus. I was up front, and I was excited because here was someone I could talk to, I thought. He sat down across from me, and his mother made him get up and go to the back of the bus. I will never forget that, and it will never stop hurting me.

[KaraokeKarlton]

38. You are failing to recognize something

Some of the reason that did and still does happen is because a lot of blacks as well as whites are more comfortable being near people of their own race. This is what happens when people assume that everyone is racist and no one makes the effort to discuss these things or be friendly with each other. It makes for discomfort for everyone.

When I lived in Mississippi I was renting an apartment near a park that attracted some pretty interesting people after dark. One night while my ex husband was away for weekend military field exercises (war games) there was a knock on my door. I opened the door to find two black men and one white man. They were pretty messed up and looked to be under the influence of some pretty heavy drugs. One of the black men was holding a bloody baseball bat and the white guy had a nasty head wound and was bleeding all over the place. The man with the bat asked me if there was a hose or spigot on the building where he could get some water to try to clean his friend up with. I asked what happened. The guy with the bat informed me that he thought his white friend was going to hit him with the bat, so he took it and hit his friend first. I got first aid supplies, towels, bandages and proceeded to try to stop the bleeding. I advised the black man with the bat to take the guy to the hospital about two blocks away. He was scared to death he was going to get in trouble. He thanked me over and over again for helping him and his friends. He was genuinely surprised that a white woman would help him under the circumstances he found himself in. I asked him why he thought a white person wouldn't help him. He said he just thought since he was black that white people didn't like him. I laughed a little bit and reminded him that his friend was white. He said that his friend talked to him first.

The moral of this story...part of the division between people of different races is that a lot of people just assume that people of other races have something against them when they really don't. And that, Punkingal, is why that little boy's mother shuffled him off to the back of the bus. As long as people choose to attack a battle flag instead of really examine where the divisions actually lie, nothing is going to be solved.

[Punkingal]

42. That is not why she shuffled him to the back of the bus.....

she did it because that was where blacks were supposed to sit in those days. I do not need anyone to tell me why something that happened to me happened. And I don't need anyone to tell me that people keep to their own race because they "mistakenly assume" others don't want them around. I worked in Alabama for about a year once, in 1981, and my very first day on the job I learned there was a still a sign on a particular mountain that said, "________ don't show your face here after dark." I think you can guess what is in the blank. Not to mention that as late as 1980, at the drive-in theatre we went to, there was a separate bathroom that said "Coloreds." I know about racism, thank you.

[blm]

45. As one who has lived in SC for the last 4 years,

after living many years in LA and NY, I can attest to the differences in attitude in regard to that flag. They really use it more as a matter of in-your-face defiance. Many are accompanied by bumperstickers that read: IF AT FIRST YOU DON'T SECEDE, TRY, TRY AGAIN.

There is no mistaking what they mean.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

30. So if Dean said he wanted to be the candidate of people with swastikas

he would just be 'reaching out'? To people who felt it was an important part of their history?

[w4rma]

32. No. And you aren't even making an analogy since you take statements

out of context.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

44. The swastika and the confederate flag are both racist symbols

whatever they meant originally.

[Lexingtonian]

33. sheesh, Get Real

Sonny Purdue knocked Roy Barnes out of office running on the 'issue' of the Georgia state flag. The Stars And Bars do mean something that signs like the Red Cross don't.

I really don't understand how you can go to such ridiculous, naive, lengths in (rightly or wrongly) trying to defend Dean. 600,000 men died because there is a distinction between what the Stars And Stripes represents and what the Stars And Bars represents. Confusion about what the distinction is doesn't permit you to claim that it's Nothing.

You're not alone. Dean is consistently naive about the Culture War- the present day revisiting of the issues of the Civil War-, too. (That is why his semi-innocuous comment was taken so very badly, rather than any actual racism per se.) I've even had a person here tell me, last night, that Dean's unwillingness to accept that there is the Culture War is A Good Thing. It bothers me that when I piece all I hear from the Dean side together it amounts to a capitulation in it, certainly a devaluation of so much that was struggled and suffered for.

And on a topic in this thread for which I don't want to write a separate post, the original meaning of the swastika is religious, probably denoting a four way partition of the universe. In all cultures it represents the Four (cardinal) Directions. In the Indoeuropean religions of prehistoric Eurasia it is known to represent the Four Gods and their Four Elements. (Sky,Land,Water,Fire gods, splitting into a fertile Rain God trinity and an oppositional, destructive, Fire god these days called Devil.) One can, if one chooses, see in the cross symbol of Christianity an adaptation of the symbolism. Given how much of IE-based religion was taken into Christianity (such as burying corpses on their backs with their heads to west, so that should they sit up they will be facing in the holy direction, east), it's more than just plausible.

[KaraokeKarlton]

39. Arguing over a flag that means so many different things

doesn't solve racial division. Racial division exists because people of one race are too quick to assume that people of other races don't like them. Avoidance of dealing with and talking to each other is the biggest barrier. Sure to some people the battle flag signifies something bad. That isn't the case to everyone, or even the majority. So, why don't you ask John Kerry about the lawsuits black families in Nantucket had to file in order to get their children into schools with white children? I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the northerners also oppressed blacks back in the day...even in John Kerry's Massachussetts.

[gottaB]

36. Here's a voter for you

He's a former president of his local chapter of the NAACP. Maybe you can get an endorsement.

Personally of course I'm like the white guy in the story who shouted out, "When are the Nazis coming through? Are they next?" But that's just me.

[surfermaw]

40. Another thought on the confederat flag

You are right on the American Flag, Bush has wrapped himself in it,and thought it would help him win his second term,but most americans especially democrats are seeing through Dubah's scheme.

On the confederate flag,THE Republicans have succeded in making the Confederate Flag ,Abortin, and Religion their thing in order to gleem southern votes

Another thought on the Flag, I don't live in Georgia, but was raised in Georgia. During our school time most all Georgia school children were carted off to Atlanta to see a huge scene of General Sherman,destroying the city of Atlanta while his troops looked on..it is my opinion that many of the redneck flag carrying southners aren't concerned with race,but carry the flag in pride, most of them like you and I are most concerned with the raising of their children and want more for them,than they were able to accomplish.

[KaraokeKarlton]

41. Exactly!

You can clearly see that southern whites are frequently demonized by people who don't live in the south. It's just as unfair and wrong to lump all southern whites into a stereotype as it is to lump all blacks, latinos, gays, etc. into a stereotype. Many members here are guilty of doing the very thing they claim to be protesting. It astounds me that so few can see it. I rather enjoy taking the unpopular stance and pointing things like this out...a bit of a "devil's advocate" if you will. I believe that there are two sides to every story and more than one way to view things. Things aren't black and white and people need to remember that.