Let's Compile A List of Times War Resolution Dems Have Bent Over For Bush

[Khephra]

Somebutnot all of them voted for:

Tax cuts

Patriot Act

Homeland Security

Leave No Child behind (which was known to be underfunded from the start)

Ashcroft's appointment

Iraq Resolution

the new Iraq 80 plus billion bill

"Partial-birth abortion"

Oh, and don't forget all the votes that the Senate Dems have missed to campaign.

---

Is it any wonder some of us would rather vote for Dean, warts and all? Is it any wonder that some of us bitch about them just like Dean? Maybe we don't feel as betrayed by Dean as the very same people who were supposed to save us from Bush who were actually in a postion to try and stop him?

[chimpymustgo]

1. This is not helpful.

nt

[Khephra]

2. As long as people can get away with posting outright hostile

threads about Dean, then, well, don't expect me to be helpful to them either.

[helleborient]

3. The hostility isn't helpful to anyone...

Is it?

Go hit a ball around or jog a mile...it's better for your stress than this.

[indigo32]

4. tit for tat isn't getting us anywhere

eom

[AWD]

7. Tit for tat...

...leaves everybody titless.

[LuminousX]

10. But Tat is VERY happy

[helleborient]

11. And I definitely don't want to live in that world!! (n/t)

[meegbear]

5. Since dean has never been in congress ...

your questions are moot.

[lcordero]

6. that would cover every single Democrat in the Senate

even though I still feel that one or two are still keepers.
and a good portion of them that are in the House.
It only confirms that we should be voting them out during the Primaries.

It still doesn't change my opinion on Bush...uh, I mean Dean.

[Khephra]

8. So....are Dean supporters supposed to just "Get over it"?

Are we supposed to play by the rules of the same very people who have voted against our interests? Are we supposed to just "take it" while others are free to say what they want?

Freep no.

I've been here for almost three years now, and some of the very same people that I've seen complain about Dean are/were the ones who bitched and moaned the most and the loudest when their current candidates voted against their interests.

I'm tired of the forgetfulness of some people on this board.

[helleborient]

13. You know what would be great...

Although I understand the limitations of time when you're runnnig a presidential campaign...

Have Dean supporters write letters to the congress people they disagree with en masse...and also recruit and support candidates in the primaries against those who are dead weight in congress.

Screaming and yelling at John Kerry and John Edwards won't get rid of the true dead weight.

I am so happy to see Zell Miller go.

[indigo32]

15. Wait

where's Zell Miller going? Far away I hope... but is there something I haven't heard?

[helleborient]

16. Not running for re-election...decided last January

[blm]

17. Try being honest. Dean would have supported Patriot Act.

And Homeland Security. He was for the Iraq war based on Biden-Lugar guidelines, but WAR nonetheless. If you were sincerely so put off by your list, you'd be a Kucinich supporter.

[Khephra]

18. I was for Bidden/Lugar

Which got cast aside because of people like Gephardt, Liberman and Bayh.

Yeah, maybe Dean would have done one or two of those things, but many of the pro-war (4 Horsemen version) democrats have backed (or not voted on) multiple things.

I do back Kucinich, but I also know that he's got a chance in hell of getting in office.

[blm]

23. I know EXACTLY what you did. You meant to confuse the Democrats

who voted with those bills with the candidates. Exactly what Dean did last January when he talked about "those four guys from Congress" and then says they supported Bush's taxcuts for the wealthiest.

Your whole point is to enrage people anew and let it spill unto the other Dem candidates whether they voted that way or not.

I may be goodlooking but, I'm not dumb.

[redqueen]

31. Ouch

:(

But I'm still not giving up!

Go Kooch! :D

[blm]

37. Kerry preferred Biden-Lugar, too, as did I...

so the point is that Kerry and Dean were ACTUALLY not far off in their positions yet one got labeled antiwar and the other prowar when it was only Kerry stuck negotiating for the better resolution and paying with his vote.

[LuminousX]

9. I understand why this was posted

But this runs contrary to our overall goal. By now, we fully understand the differences of our candidates. Supporters understand their candidates weaknesses. Continually pointing them out does nothing to repair the fabric of the party.

ProfessorPlum had a great post a while back I wish I bookmarked where he put it on the line. There are no silver bullets. We can spend our time attacking each other or we can promote our candidates.

[AWD]

12. Hold on a minute!

We don't know if they voted for the 87 billion dollar Iraq bill.

Because they were too big of wusses to have their vote put on record.

Voice vote, my ass. Stand up and be accountable if you want to be President someday!

[blm]

14. Name names. Or, like Dean, you want to confuse with generalities?

NONE of the candidates voted for tax cuts.

Patriot Act was 98-1. Those who disagreed with parts of the bill pushed for and passed sunsetting. Dean proposed that some of our civil rights should be reevaluated on Sept. 14, 2001. Why pretend he was against the Patriot Act?

Homeland security. Dean said he would run to Bush's right on Homeland Security. How comforting.

Support for IWR w/Biden-Lugar amendment makes one Bushlite-lite?

Edwards and Kerry did NOT vote for the 87 billion.


btw, kef...is there a special category for those candidates who supported Bush on Yucca Mt.? How about those candidates who pushed for deregulation of the energy industry? How about those candidates who got the highest ratings from the Libertarian CATO Institute based on their deregulation stances?

[Khephra]

22. Re-read my first post.

I mention Pro-Resolution Democrats as a group, not just the candidates.

BAYH voted for the tax cut.

[blm]

25. Read my rebuttal.

No turnip truck in sight.

btw, kef....If your post is REALLY just about Democrats in general, then why didn't you post it in General Discussion? Why is it in Politics and Campaigns if it isn't campaign related?

;)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

19. Who did what? What are you talking about?

Should we respond with a list of all the crimes committed by governors? or doctors? :eyes:

[mikeysnot]

20. No, it is helpful

Why should we have blind allegiance to the party shortcomings like ditto heads. Just because they are Dem's should not exclude them from scrutiny. The more we call the Dem's on this BS, the more we can bring people into the fold and make the party truer to our causes. Why pretend they are holier than thou and above scrutiny, does that not make us the same as repigs....

[JohnKleeb]

21. Youre reminding me why I support Kucinich khep

but I am told by the masses hes unelectable so maybe I should just give up ;) NOT. I think he may have voted for no child left behind but his education plan is something else I think, and in his nature its very good to me at least. So thanks khep for reminding me why I support Kucinich being that he was on the right side of so many of these things but hes unelectable so I should just not support him ;) again I am being sarcastic.
Oh yeah I forgessen
Kucinich for President

[Khephra]

24. That's why I DO support Kucinich as my second choice

He's runnning a campaign, voting the right way, and making almost every vote.

[JohnKleeb]

26. Good to know

Just saying you know. You reminded me why I do support him lol. Yeah his work ethnic how could I forget that, he tries to make every vote.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

29. You didn't speak out when SBNA Dean supporters drove good people off this

board with their heavy-handed attacks on them and the candidate they supported. I was a Kerry and Kucinich supporter who ended up speaking up for those Gephardt, Edwards, and Graham supporters who were being treated like freepers by the virulent Deanies. I watched people come to this board to support a candidate with reasonable intentions, and turn hostile to Dean and his campaign within weeks based on the attackers. The personal insults were the most disheartening aspect.

You can't cry a river now that Dean is getting greater scrutiny when so many applauded the vitriol against and dissection of the other candidates.

[helleborient]

30. But it is within your power to put a stop to it now...

By joining those who are stopping themselves.

Care to join us?

[mike_c]

28. I think this is VERY HELPFUL and the crux of many issues....

Do our dem Congress-critters represent our interests or their own political agenda? Are they a credible opposition party or a rubber stamp for the republican administration? Are they willing to fight for progressive issues or are they entrenched in maintaining the status quo? Whose side are they on, anyway?!

[Padraig18]

39. The Congressional Dems who voted for the IWR were FOOLS!

They did so for political expediency; other, more principled sorts, like Dick Durbin--- who was running for re-election--- did NOT abdicate their Constitutional responsibilities.:grr:

[redqueen]

32. Dean feels betrayed?

But he was the one giving speeches at CATO, right? And backing huge cuts in medicare? And supporting deregulation?

:shrug:

Isn't it possible that some Democrats in VT might feel this same way about Dean, and that that explains the higher and higher votes for the Progressive party during his time as Gov?

Do we want someone like that as President? I'm not attacking, I'm seriously asking.

[Khephra]

33. Find me something as large as the Iraq Resolution and we'll talk

It's more than just being anti-war or pro-war, unlike some people would have you think.

I'm anti-prememptive war without UN support. I've never said I was a dove here, and neither have many other Deanies. I'm more of an owl.

Prememptive war could lead to WW3, deregulation (or anything else you could find in Dean's background) can't even come close to touching that issue with me.

[redqueen]

35. I see your point, but...

Honestly I do not believe Democrats in Congress voted the way they did expecting * to actually go through with a preventive war the way he did.

IMO, they were most likely hedging their bets... expecting that with UN participation and allies' input, that their worst fears might not be realized. They didn't want to 'turn off the centrists' :puke: , so they voted and hoped for the best. At least that's what I think the majority might have been thinking. So I can't paint them as warmongers are pro-preventive war automatically based on that one vote.

[drfemoe]

46. If I remember correctly

in the atmosphere at that time, there was a lot of disinformation and threatening. gwb threatened the un with 'irrelevance', and for a time it looked like he might pursue the war without any support from congress and without even ASKING them. I was watching Daschle .. for a few weeks he spoke out against the 'war resolution' or whatever it was (it should have been plain that it was a set-up for war come hell or high water). In the end, Daschle crumpled and went along with the res. I'm not at all certain that congress could have stopped the war, but I was sure hoping they wouldn't give it credibility, which is exactly what they did. Wasn't there some talk of having to go back to congress if inspections weren't satisfactory? That never happened.

I have come to the realization that the fighting here at DU (leaving out any outside freeper influence) can be both explained and resolved by understanding two keys.
1. We all feel anxiety.
2. We all care.

If we didn't care, we wouldn't be experiencing anxiety about current situations and about what each of us feels is the solution, "our" candidate. If we recognize that our anxiety is more about how much we CARE, it may be possible to stop raising each other's anxiety level.

[blm]

36. Deregulation puts the world's resources under private ownership.

What the hell do you think these wars are aboout fer chrissakes, kef? They're about WATER, OIL, ELECTRICITY! The world's resources, kef.

You want something BIGGER than IWR? The greatest subversion of the Constitution by any administration was IranContra. What did Dean have to say about it? He said he had "mixed feelings".....WTF? How can anyone know what we know now about IranContra and say they have "mixed feelings" about it?

[redqueen]

41. OMG

He said that? About Iran Contra?

:scared:

[nocreativename]

34. The Two that get

Me the most was that Kerry did nto even vote on leavitt or the Healthy Forest In. While he calls him self the environmental canidate.

[KittyWampus]

38. Dean Didn't HAVE To Vote For Anything

He could say whatever angry DU'ers wanted to hear even if it was counter to his own record and past statements.

That's all I'm going to say about that.

[Khephra]

40. Before any of us get in any more trouble

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=646895&mesg_id=646895

I'm backing off. It's been a rather awful day and I'm taking the advice offered therein.

[blm]

43. Actually, this was a pretty civil thread, kef.

It didn't attract the vitriol that some threads attract. More just normal back and forth.

[Padraig18]

42. Wise words on the war power:

"Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation, whenever he shall deem it necessary
to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so, whenever he may choose to say he deems
it necessary for such a purpose -- and you allow him to make war at pleasure.

If today, he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada, to prevent the
British from invading us, how could you stop him? You may say to him, 'I see no probability
of the British invading us' but he will say to you, 'Be silent; I see it, if you don't.'" --

--- Congressman Abraham Lincoln, 158 years ago

If they're such great intellects, why didn't they understand what a self-educated lawyer from the prairies of Illinois undertood over a century-and-a-half ago? :eyes:

[mmonk]

44. good post

and it strikes at the core of why some of us are mad at the lack of leadership and debate coming from the congressional Dems.

[Padraig18]

45. yes!

My senator, Dick Durbin, voted against the IWR as a matter of principle, even though he was running for re-election in a state that was decidely pro-war; nonetheless, the voters respected his decision, and returned him to office.

It was the right thing to do.