Letter in NYT - re: Dean's comment

[realFedUp]

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/07/opinion/L07DEAN.html

To the Editor:

As a born-and-bred Southerner (although with neither pickup nor Rebel flag decal), I am disappointed that you have aligned yourselves with the absurd controversy promoted by Howard Dean's Democratic opponents in decrying his mention of including decal-bearing, pickup-driving good ol' boys in the campaign against the current administration (editorial, Nov. 6).

After all — as Dr. Dean has been stating in speeches since last winter — those folks need to know that voting Republican for the past 30 years has gained neither better schools for their children nor better jobs for themselves!

No Southerner I've talked to — of whatever class or color — sees Dr. Dean's comments as anything other than an indication that he is willing to go after everyone's vote, including that of the working-class white male.

SUE FOMBY
Goshen, Ky., Nov. 6, 2003

[Padraig18]

1. You tell 'em, Sue!

Common-sense reaction from an ordinary Southerner, and spot on! :)

[virtualobserver]

2. no reasonable person would draw any other conclusion

only someone with an anti-dean bias would take offense at what he said.

[Colin Ex]

8. That's a ridiculous thing to say.

I'm down with Dean (supporting Kucinich in the primary) but I'm very much disturbed at what he said.

I must be harboring some secret anti-Dean bias that I'm not aware of.

-C

[virtualobserver]

10. I understand why someone could be disturbed if they read his statement....

out of context, but not when taken in the context of his entire statement and coupled with his many statements over many months indicating clearly why he was saying that.

"White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."-- Dr. Howard Dean, DNC Winter meeting, February 21, 2003

This is the first quote that I heard from Dean on this issue, but I have heard him express many variations of that theme.

My ultimate point is that Kerry, Gephardt and the gang knew exactly what Dean meant, but instead decided to play the race card for short-term political gain.

on edit: added the word "was" to the first sentence

[blm]

16. Untrue. Dean was talking about his NRA support when he made the remark

and NOT about race relations. Why is everyone denying that FACT. The entire article was about gun control and no mention of race was made, including by Dean.

[virtualobserver]

24. that does not matter

Dean has explained his position and made statements concerning the Confederate flag and the race issues in the South many, many times and this statement connects with it. Pulling this one statement out of context may be politically convenient for the anti-Dean crowd but it does nothing but show the desperation of the other campaigns.

[blm]

28. This statement WASN'T out of context. YOU are taking it out of context.

He was answering a reporter's question about his NRA support, and answered with his flag comment. He was not talking about race. Dean and his supporters use his Feb. speech to clean up the fact that Dean used that flag to defend his NRA support and gun control.

Point to ONE thing in that article that shows Dean was talking about race relations. Point to ONE thing. Then lecture about "context" to those who are doing the spinning.

 
http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html
Kerry criticizes Dean's gun views
By THOMAS BEAUMONT
Register Staff Writer
11/01/2003
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
Kerry, a Massachusetts senator, said Dean's opposition to an assault weapons ban in 1992, recorded in a National Rifle Association endorsement questionnaire, contradicts his position as a presidential candidate supporting a federal assault weapons ban.

Kerry supported the 1994 bill that outlawed the sale and ownership of assault weapons, which Dean says he now supports.

"Howard Dean, during the time we were trying to pass it, was appealing to the NRA for their support," Kerry said, while visiting a rural Story County farm.
"We don't need to be a party that says we need to be the candidacy of the NRA. We stand up against that."

Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said he answered the questionnaire while running for re-election as governor of Vermont. He has said he was never asked to sign a gun control bill during his Vermont tenure.
>>>>>>>

[virtualobserver]

29. If you actually read the article, you will find no quote .....

where Dean mentions the NRA, or any mention of a question from a reporter concerning the NRA.

-snip
Dean has said 2000 Democratic nominee Al Gore lost the election because he failed to win Southern states, where disaffected Democrats who favor gun owners' rights were reluctant to support him.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," Dean said Friday in a telephone interview from New Hampshire. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."
-unsnip

http://desmoinesregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html

The reporter uses the term "has said" , which means that this is not from this interview....Then quotes Dean "We can't.......etc"

No mention of the actual context of the statement, no mention of the question asked of Dean, and no quote about his statement having anyting to do with the NRA.

This is nothing more than a reporter's linkage. There is nothing to indicate that his statement was a response to a question about the NRA. The fact that the conversation deals later with the NRA does not
indicate in any way that this quote was in any way a response to a NRA question. No evidence whatsoever. However since his statement does match up perfectly with his numerous statements, some which I have heard in person, clearly it was about race issues and politics.

[LuminousX]

30. Wasn't this discussed thoroughly already?

deja vu

[No More Shrub]

34. Out of curiouity and completly off topic

What made you change your mind about Dean and Kucinich?

[LuminousX]

35. OT

New evidence that Dean isn't as polarizing as I first assumed he was has come to light, mainly his positive numbers in New Hampshire, a group of people who have gotten to know him well not just as a Presidential candidate but as a neighbor.

I've had an opportunity to have long, and in my opinion, healthy discussions with Kucinich supporters and really went over his website with a fine tooth comb reading up on all his positions. There are a few positions I flat out disagree with him on, such as repealing NAFTA and his approach to Iraq. His other proposals which I support 100%, I don't support the approach he is chosing to take.

[No More Shrub]

36. Thanks

I've read a lot of your posts and they are ussually well thought out and researched, and because of that I respect your thoughts even if I disagree, which I do about the two issues you disagree with DK on. I agree with him on most everything and I will be very disapointed if (maybe when) he loses. My second choice would be Dean which is why I was curious about him, although I still think he is polarizing.

[Padraig18]

31. Stick. Dead horse. Beat. Repeat.

:eyes:

[No More Shrub]

11. Or someone with a anti CF bias...

or someone who dislikes being compared to bigots, etc. I agree with the idea of getting southerners, or anyone else, to vote democratic, but that is one of the worst ways to go about it, it seems to have alienated just as many, if not more, than it could possibly bring into the fold. Not trying to bash Dean or anything, he is my second choice, I just think he picked a terrible way to go about it and was right to apologize for offending people, as well as not to bright for trying to defend it as being inoffensive. Being offended is a personal decision and one that rarely involves much thought, its a gut reaction, and a lot of people's guts tell them a racist symbol used to represent a group of people who aren't, as a whole, racist is offensive, or just saying you want to represent someone who imbraces a raceist symbol would be offensive. To say someone shouldn't be offended because no offensive was intended is unreasonable.

[virtualobserver]

14. OK, you are right....

I shouldn't have said unreasonable, but I live in Texas and have known a lot of people in my life who don't view the "rebel flag" as a symbol of racism and are not racist...They are not very connected to the history of "the south". These people are not closet KKK members, they are just ignorant of the impact of that symbol.

Starting the conversation by saying that they are racists does nothing to open the dialogue. Dean's rhetoric has been very clear...and he has stated that Southerners have been manipulated by Republicans over issues like the flag (both flags) and that they needed to focus on economic issues.

Nobody benefits if they vote for Bush again.

[No More Shrub]

18. I agree...

You're right, I shouldn't have said bigots, but thats how a lot of people look at it. I agree that economically poor people shold vote democat, but alot of the folks Dean was talking about vote on different issues than most democrats, I.E Gun cuntrol, "the only gun control you need is a steady hand" type people. Not to mention the anti abortion faction who believe everything the TV evangilists say and vote accordingly, if they vote at all. My concern is what we would have to give up to get their vote.

[virtualobserver]

27. I understand your "gun control" concerns......

The reason that I am happy with Dean is that I have come to believe over time that gun control can't work. In the same way that drugs cannot be controlled because of the high demand for them, I believe that the culture of guns is so deeply imbedded in our society that laws cannot change the actual flow of weapons into the society.

Republicans want to keep the focus on guns and flags. It is the key to their continued reign.

[Romulus]

33. right, but wrong, too

. . . I have come to believe over time that gun control can't work. In the same way that drugs cannot be controlled because of the high demand for them, I believe that the culture of guns is so deeply imbedded in our society that laws cannot change the actual flow of weapons into the society.

"Gun control" should mean keeping firearms from criminals and the certifiably mentally ill, as best as we can, without stomping all over the rights of those who do fit into those categories during Quioxtic (sp?) quests that do not serve their purported goals.

Unlike drugs and alcohol, which have addictive properties that biologically compel users to seek them out, firearms are more of a socio-political phenomenon of symbolism: should the government force you to be completely dependent upon it for your everyday protection? That is the priciple at stake in the "gun rights" battle. The "chattering class" of NYT readers can't even comprehend thought of asking that question - thus the attacks on Dean for even bringing the issue up.

Proper controls that seek to restrict access to firearms by criminals can work. The "culture of guns" that should be targeted is the criminal gun culture. Don't throw up your hands just yet.

[meegbear]

3. To the editor:

Re "In a `Jam,' Dean Apologizes for Remarks on Rebel Flag" (news article, Nov. 6): Howard Dean says: "When people get in my face, I tend to get in theirs. Al Sharpton was in my face last night and I was not going to step one step, half a step, backwards, and I don't care who's in my face. I tend to be reflective rather later than sooner. Now, unfortunately, we all know that nobody's personality is perfect. So the things that make me a strong candidate are also my Achilles' heel."

These are not attributes of a sound presidential candidate. I fear that Dr. Dean, if elected, might have confrontations with volatile leaders from other countries. How can the American public trust this candidate to sit down at the table with any foreign powers, with this propensity to shoot from the lip? A strong candidate, a strong leader, thinks before he speaks.

PAMELA J. LEAVEY
West Toluca Lake, Calif., Nov. 6, 2003

[virtualobserver]

5. point taken

Even though I trust him in situations like that, I understand your concern.

[wtmusic]

6. These are not only sound but the best attributes

for a presidential candidate to defeat George Bush in '04. Would Dr. Dean *ever* say, "Bring them on?"

On the subject of tact there is no comparison. Dr. Dean's brashness is an asset when Democrats are up against the most powerful, misguided presidency in US history.

[Larkspur]

9. Dean said that a President has to be tough, patient, and willing to

base decisions on evidence, not ideology.

Dean's "in-your-face" style will be necessary when confronting foreign ideologues, like Ariel Sharon, Yasser Arafat, and yes, the NK Prez. It won't work with Vladmir Putin, who is a sharp chess player diplomat, but at least Putin will know that Dean is an honest leader who wants a better world, not a pirate, like Bush, who wants to plunder with impunity other countries resources.

[LuminousX]

12. Has anyone ever seen Dean really lose it?

We've seen him become entrenched and be stubborn, that is sort of normal behavior, but with three or four rivals sniping at him, that is the worst we saw. Now he may have peeled the paint with his language backstage afterwards but for the most part, every attempt to get him to blow his cool really hasn't worked. I've seen him turn red but that is fine.

If he and I were out at a bar and I got into the thick of something, I am very confident he'd be right there to back me up with no hesitation. Is it an odd 'feeling' to use to decide a vote? I guess. I got the same feeling from Clinton and this Bush. I didn't get it from H.W. Bush or Gore. Totally meaningless, but it is the sense of willingness to take action. That is appealing. That willingness stems from a deep inner passion that creates tempermental personalities.

[helleborient]

17. And which of these candidates is not passionate?

One of the things I like most about all of the candidates even including Joe Lieberman.

I think they all passionately believe they would be an asset to this country - and they all passionately believe the current administration has gone far down the wrong track.

I think any of these candidates could definitely display anger if they were elected in office and that's not a bad thing.

It's not the same thing as Nikita Khruschev beating the desk with his shoe.

[LuminousX]

21. I wouldn't say any aren't passionate

just some are more risk-averse than others.

[helleborient]

23. I would agree with that one

And I tend to like the elected figures who play it a bit more risky for the right principles.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[helleborient]

4. Real letter from a real Southern voter...

When there is a region-based controversy like this - I do like to hear the voices of those who live in the area being talked about - pro or con.

That means not listening to me yammering on about it, or people from elsewhere in the country.

Thank you for posting the letter.

[Duder]

7. 5 letters...

4 positive for Dean.

[blm]

15. Too bad Dean was defending his NRA vote at the time and NOT discussing

race relations as he LIED on camera. The article where he was quoted ONLY talked about the NRA and gun control and race relations was NEVER part of the discussion.

This lie and his spin of his remarks will be used by the GOP to show his character. Dean's first inclination is to LIE for himself.

[helleborient]

19. Yep, we know all 9 of them lie by your narrow definition sometimes...

Is there something new in this post?

[Padraig18]

20. I'm curious:

Why is this one miniscule pseudo-issue such a bug up your ass? :shrug:

[LuminousX]

22. Wasn't this covered already?

Or one thread with nearly 200 posts in one day isn't enough of a conversation on this topic. Should we devote a whole forum to it?

[helleborient]

25. Maybe it's like propaganda leaflets...

If you shower enough of them...a few people might change their mind.

[dave29]

26. I have to give you credit

for being such a persistant Kerry partisan. Unfortunately the same fact really puts a stranglehold on your argument.

Dean supporters really like Dean. Really. You aren't going to convince them he has some major personality flaw which will prevent him from being President. Your belief that Dean is a liar does not translate. In fact trying to continue to say he is will make Dean supporters fight harder against whoever says it. It's this fighting spirit that draws people to Dean and a spirit we desperately need in the party.

Kerry does not have the juice. He has the resume, and a great record - but not the juice. It's too bad - and it's becoming sad watching him flail around wildly hoping he'll land a punch - but the fact is his campaign is not connecting. And it would be nice, for the good of the country, not Kerry's own ambitions, he would stop attacking and start helping to unify the party.

[eissa]

32. Dean cult

member -- and proud of it!!

I do the Wayne-n-Garth "we're not worthy!" routine each time Howard lights up the screen. Ok, ok.....I'm just saying these things to get all those Dean-haters riled up! :evilgrin:

Seriously, I would encourage all the Dean supporters to completely ignore any more posts related to the flag non-issue. This horse has been beaten to a pulp. Nothing more to see here folks....keep on movin'.

[LuminousX]

37. Cult -- Oh Yeah!

[eissa]

38. Gulp, gulp, gulp! n/t

[helleborient]

39. I've never been part of a cult...

This should be fun!

Secret handshake?

[LuminousX]

40. Nope, just Kool Aid and on Sundays,

Kerry supporters come over to cook waffles. It really is quite nice.