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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 10:19 PM
Original message
The Menace
Edited on Sat Nov-08-03 10:20 PM by Tinoire
Howard Dean knows the perils of trying to have it both ways on Iraq. After all, he has spent the last year clobbering John Kerry for supporting war in the Senate while denouncing it on the campaign trail. So imagine Dean's surprise when, at the October 9 Democratic debate in Phoenix, Dennis Kucinich turned the charge against him. "This morning, in The New York Times, wouldn't take a position on the eighty-seven billion dollars, and the governor says that he's still for keeping seventy thousand troops in Iraq," said Kucinich. "Now, it's either right or wrong. If we're wrong to be there, as I believe we are, we should get our troops out." <snip> Today, however, the debate has largely shifted from war to postwar. Dean and other leading Democrats are calling the Iraq occupation a disaster that is breaking the bank, poisoning America's reputation around the world, and sending young men and women home in body bags. To which Kucinich asks a logical question: If you think the postwar is so bad, why not bring Americans home?

None of the leading Democrats want to withdraw from Iraq, but their refusal to plausibly answer Kucinich's question may be pushing them in that direction. Kerry, John Edwards, Wesley Clark, and--more ambiguously--Dean, all opposed President Bush's $87 billion reconstruction request because they said he lacked a plan to win the peace in Iraq. But that's not true. Bush does have a plan, even if he's not quite honest about it: It's for the United States to stabilize and rebuild Iraq largely alone, by pouring in money and handing over security to hastily trained Iraqi forces. The Democratic candidates may dislike that strategy, but it is they who have no practical alternative.

<snip>

Opposing Bush's reconstruction plan, and lacking a realistic one of their own, the Democratic candidates are vulnerable to Kucinich's logic. After all, if you don't have a strategy for winning the peace in Iraq, why stay? Democratic public opinion is clearly moving in this direction. A CBS poll in late August found that 53 percent of Democrats wanted the United States to either increase troop levels in Iraq or hold them steady, versus 37 percent who wanted to decrease the number. By last week, that figure had reversed itself. In a late October Washington Post/ABC News poll, 54 percent of Democrats said the "U.S. should withdraw forces from Iraq to avoid casualties," while only 40 percent wanted to keep them there.

<snip>

The unhappy truth is that, by mishandling postwar Iraq and alienating much of the world, the Bush administration has left the United States with two bad options: rebuild Iraq largely alone, at great cost in money and lives (and with no guarantee of success), or withdraw largely alone, in a Vietnam-like defeat. The leading Democratic presidential contenders, who like most candidates hate tough choices, are trying to pretend they don't have to make one. But the longer they oppose the Bush reconstruction strategy, the more they will find themselves pushed toward the alternative, which is no reconstruction at all.
On Iraq, Kucinich now represents the Democratic vanguard. Unless the other candidates face reality, he could soon represent the Democratic mainstream.

Peter Beinart is the editor of TNR.
https://ssl.tnr.com/p/docsub.mhtml?i=20031117&s=trb111703

(Free subscription for 14 days)


On edit: direct no subscription link: http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?pt=xSg%2B4YZ8yEY8HEBUnb0nlh%3D%3D

:bounce: :bounce: And this from a socially liberal non-Progressive magazine mostly read by Dems! Excellent!
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MrSoundAndVision Donating Member (879 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. The Menace Indeed
You know, I've thought a lot about what I'm going to do if Dennis Kucinich fails to obtain the nomination and the media wins again.

I think I'm going to take the advice of all of those fire-breathing liberal haters out there and move to Canada as soon as possible! You know, the land of the free-er, the land of universal health care and peace, the land where Dennis Kucinich would be retired. In fact, I've already started learning French, though I need a review, so NO FRENCH responses.

You know I've got this book called "The Portable Thomas Jefferson" and sometime soon I'm going to make the effort and include some of his more thoughtful letters and documents here for discussion. It could be interesting.
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Kucinich or Bust, eh?
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Thats not my belief FYI
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. Well there IS another option..
Internationalize the occupation, involve the UN more, make it truly multilateral.

Bush will not and cannot follow this path. A Democratic president could.

We need to recognize we live in a multilateral world, and cannot bully the rest of the world to do our bidding.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. I hate to break this to you
but The New Republic is not a Right-wing rag. It used to be one of the premiere Liberal and Progressive reviews out there until that pesky little Israel/Palestine issue popped up and they decided to tow the pro-Israel line like many of our good friends in I/P.

But they are not right-wing. They are still Liberal (neo if you want) and socially progressive for domestic issues which is sadly, to my disgust, the same state I see the Democratic Party in.

Re-examine the various plans. None of them are really workable and all cater to the wishes of American corporations. Kucinich and Sharpton are the only 2 who get an A on this exam- the others are still cramming.

I canceled my subscription to them 2 years ago when I noticed which way they were headed with I/P and the Arab world but you can't call them right-wing. Pick up a copy one day... skip everything that has to do with the Arab/Muslim world and you'll probably like it.
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
6. The facts as I sees 'em
FACT: Bush got us into an immoral, illegal and disastrous war. And no matter how we got there, THERE WE ARE.

FACT: Most Americans, and many Democrats, cannot stomach an unconditional and sudden withdrawal of troops. It would wound their egoes.

FACT: Therefore, it would (as Kucinich is about to find out) be political suicide to call for an immediate withdrawal of troops. It makes no difference that a troop withdrawal is correct as a remedy for an illegal and immoral invasion in the first place.

FACT: Any politico with half a teaspoonfull of brains needs to come up with a clever, face saving way to withdraw US troop strength from Iraq while continuing to remind the public that the invasion was a bad idea from the get-go, and they always said so.

Dennis Kucinich can certainly state the obvious from his hallowed position of no-hope nominee. We thank you, Dennis. You're a nice guy and no one can deny that. But see, Dennis, we have this dilemma about unseating the smirking warchimp next November. And if we don't take social and political realities into consideration, we're doomed.

Am I getting THROUGH to you, Dennis?


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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-08-03 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Read the article again
You are getting through to no one. Over 50% of the American people want the troops out. The other Dems are sounding more and more like Dennis.

Re-read the article and hopefully you are still sentient and open-minded enough for some facts to get through.
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I can gaurantee you that the American public....
will never accept some kind of withdrawal "without honor". This isn't because I agree with them, but because it's a reality. Vietnam history is a good precursor lesson to this idea.

You are free to ignore this, and watch as Bush becomes pResident again for 4 more years.


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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Please stop misstating DK's position-- get your facts straight
DK is not for unconditional "immediate" withdrawal-- nor has he EVER been.

The Kucinich Plan involves first going to the UN and mending the immense f*ck-up BushCo got us into. It involves the UN and a true international force to replace the US fighters currently in Iraq. IT DOES NOT MEAN THE UNCONDITIONAL WITHDRAWAL OF US TROOPS.

All rebuilding would be turned over the the Iraqi people, under the auspices of the UN. No more deals for Halliburton and all the politically connected "contractors" who've gotten the spoils of war so far.

I am sick and tired of certain uninformed people repeating the meme that Kucinich thinks we should pull out of Iraq unconditionally. That is NOT the case, nor has it EVER been the case.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. But...but...splutter
It makes a better soundbite to portray it as "cut and run," doesn't it?

I, too, am sick of certain inaccurate memes repeated over and over.

It's a campaign. It benefits the opposing candidate to have the public believe that crap. It's up to us to refute it. Over and over and over, ad nauseum, if necessary. So...lets come up with a meme ourselves, and start hammering it.

I was going to say a "slogan," but then I realized that you might not joing me for that one! ;-)

So let's generate some soundbites of our own:

"Partnership with the world community"

"Taking special interest out of the process"

"Supporting Iraqis in taking back their nation"

etc.
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FluxRostrum Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. explanantion of Kucinich's Exit Strategy
http://madison.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/14494
audio - 16 minutes but the exit strategy is in the beginning.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. I remember Vietnam and how we pulled our asses out-finally
and it was "without honor" and thats how we treated the men & women who got caught fighting in it in all these years since.

So for you, "honor" is worth another how many years and countless Iraqi & American lives ??? Doesn't it make sense to NOT go down the same road in the same car ? To learn from the past and take a different road .

Dennis has brought so much intelligence and honesty to this entire campaign...and he is doing that for the War and after enough body bags come back...the American people will want an end to it...and the candidate that offers a reasonable solution as how this can be accomplished will get teh support of the people.

Dennis Kucinich is the only clear choice who is different from Bush & the other dem candidates. The fact you don't see it is a small thing in the scheme of things...and I have a sneaky suspicion that your support of your candidate may have you a tad biased.....
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MrSoundAndVision Donating Member (879 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. There is no 'honorable withdrawal' from this despicible act
This is a filthy war, and there are no honors. The American people shouldn't really have to worry about the 'honor' aspect of withdrawal because they didn't decide to go to war, they were led into it by a war machine comprised of members of the defense industry (who have been appointed members of our government, hence they help 'govern' us) and a compliant media run by people like Rupert Murdoch, who has the biggest stake in the media worldwide, he has been quoted as saying: "Authoritarian societies can work." So that's who led us into this war.

And nothing good will come of it, not honor, not respect, not democracy. So stop justifying continuing this war with propaganda: the American people don't deserve to be cushioned with some 'honor' ceremony, it is cushioning the American people which helped facilitate this continuation of war.

If only they SAW what was happening, they would know it's time to elect Dennis Kucinich as president. And the point of the article above is that the election of the president is directly tied to what happens in the war. And the situation over there is only going to get worse, and Dennis Kucinich becomes our president more and more as things get worse over there, we've just got to wait for the ceremony.

Excellent article.
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snoochie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-09-03 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. The American people have short memories.
We all need to start talking about how the rhetoric we're being bombarded with now (e.g. 'can't cut and run', 'what would they think of us', 'honor') were all being used during the Vietnam war as well.

Violence is rising daily. People are waking up.

Kucinich in 2004. There is no alternative.
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