Bad day for Kucinich supporters

[MrSoundAndVision]

I'm sure you read today that some states are cancelling their primaries, and that the elected state legislation will choose who their state going to. This could mean disaster for DK. All of the states doing this have Republican governors and a Republican majority in the legislation. All claim it's a waste of money. There is no way DK will win any of these states: these Democratic legislators are looking to get into the federal Democratic establishment, thus they will vote with the establishment, and that means Dean, Kerry, Gephardt. At least that's how I see it.

Also, I was very much hoping for a Gore endorsement today for DK. DK is the only candidate who has iterated the constitutional amendments that the PATRIOT act violates or suspends, he is the only candidate calling for a repeal of the PATRIOT act, and he's the only candidate talking about FEAR in this country. Al agrees with Dennis on all of the issues he mentioned today in his speech without reference to the obvious choice of correcting these issues. He has said he will endorse a candidate, but will not run. I thought today was our day Kucinich supporters. Maybe another day then.

[joeybee12]

1. Do you have a link--this is news to me

I wouldn't put it past the Repuke scum to do this, but can they?

[curse10]

3. Here's a link

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=548&ncid=696&e=1&u=/ap/20031109/ap_on_el_ge/canceling_primaries

[JohnKleeb]

4. thats so wrong

sigh
Thanks for the link Kirsten though. I appreciate it.

[caledesi]

13. I am not a Kucinich supporter, but yes, this is SO wrong. nt

[JohnKleeb]

14. damned straight thanks for acknowledging

Its down right wrong.

[Desertrose]

5. I didn't think this was legal....but

then why the hell should that make a difference any more...

Holy sh*t people...wake up!!!!!

Thank you, Janet N, for not going along with them here in AZ

peace
DR

[SahaleArm]

6. The WA State open primary was ruled...

illegal as it violates a party's right to control affiliation. We'll be having caucuses instead.

[joeybee12]

8. Thanks--I have a problem with caucuses--controlled by the state

parties, and therfore the insider candidate is heavily favored. That's the last thing Dems need--the party leadership needs to be shook up and woke up and taken out of the wandering wilderness!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

10. In Minnesota, at least,

any Dem can show up at the caucuses. You don't have to be a "party insider."

[JohnKleeb]

2. I would have a heart attack if Gore endorsed Kucinich

I would be amazed and suprised. I dont expect it to happen but if he did, that would be sweet.

[MrSoundAndVision]

9. You're too young to have a heart attack John

And when do you go to school, not that we don't appreciate your company? You're here all day.

[JohnKleeb]

12. I got a heart condition

When do I go to school? If you look from 6:30-2:30 on the weekdays I am not here. Its sunday. I am here often because I dont play my video games much anymore.

[MrSoundAndVision]

17. Ok I hadn't noticed...

I was wondering if you were some child political genius or something, and had already gotten your doctorate in political science and now you had to wait to become electable. But don't worry, I'm not disappointed you go to school. So I guess school still "sucks" right?

[JohnKleeb]

18. child genius? what are you smoking

Get AIM and I will IM you my grade sheet its nothing to be proud of. No i have no plans to run for politics.

[twilight]

19. ignore him John

Its none of his damn business WHAT you are doing or when you are doing it. Ask him WTF he is doing!!! :wtf:

GO DK!!!!!!!



:dem: :kick:

[JohnKleeb]

20. hehe

Child genius though I am so humbled being that my grades this quarter sucked.

[MrSoundAndVision]

23. That's some attitude you have there

I never thought I'd meet a Kucinich suporter with a mouth like that, but then maybe this is an indication that all of our debating here is finally getting through to the general public.

It was a joke. Speako english? And it was a complement. So don't be such an a**.

[burr]

25. relax....

I don't know what the problem is..but the poster who begins a thread should put some effort into keeping it civil.

If you think Kucinich is unelectable tell us why you believe this, and give us a logical justification for making your standard of electability our standard for selecting a primary candidate.

[MrSoundAndVision]

27. Actually I'm a very serious Kucinich supporter

who felt it was a bad day for us. I do think Kucinich is electable, I'm just afraid the people of the United States aren't going to have the chance to do it because of the very organized media campaign which disregards everything he says, and with the emergence of the news on the primaries, what may be an indication that the Democratic leadership and the Republican leadership may BOTH be preventing us from having a say in who gets the nomination. Sort of seems like if many of the states don't even have primaries, and only a handful can 'afford' it, then it was probably a really good idea that Dick Gephardt stayed in Iowa instead of attending debates with his fellow candidates. It leads me to suspect that the Democratic establishment is pulling strings, just as the media has, just to keep Dennis Kucinich from being a viable candidate. Even if the DNC isn't responsible for these states from not holding elections, the insiders of the party (Kerry and Gephardt) and Dean because of his money and his lead will have a definite advantage because of this. Take Kerry for example, what's from preventing him to promise some state Senator in Utah (one of the states which won't be having 'primaries' that he will stump for him for his caucus vote? It undermines the democratic system, and reduces Dennis Kucinich's chances of nomination. But! I'm still going to have faith in Dennis and the American people. And I'll still contribute as much as I can.

So, give me a break, I was depressed. I feel better now.

[burr]

31. I have that effect on folks...

consider me an online upper, downer, or whatever ya like!


I also have a tendency to read things into another person's writings, just call it that little voice which never shuts up. :tinfoilhat:

[MrSoundAndVision]

32. Nasty habit that interpretation thing

I would have interpreted my post exactly the same way, that little annoying Dean supporter's voice my mind has supplied me with working feverishly to manipulate my vote out of the Kucinich direction.

[cosmicdot]

7. doesn't there have to be a state convention in lieu of a primary?

... first you have precinct caucuses (this is where you load your DK people in to become delegates to the state convention) ... knowing when and where these are held are key ... requires proactive organization ... not sure if there is, then, a 'district' size meeting to narrow the delegates to the state convention ...

I sense Republican (and pardon my French, DLC) politics-in-action to hurt the populists.

[Scott Lee]

11. Dean is NOT "establishment"

So please do not include him in the establishment lineup with Kerry and Gephardt. Thanks.

[Mairead]

16. A multimillionaire from a multimillionaire family? Not establishment?

Who are you kidding?

[twilight]

21. *bingo!*

and ... Dean went to Harvard too! SOB!!!!! Cut from the same cloth IMO!!!!



:dem: :kick:

[Name removed]

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[helleborient]

41. If so...why is the party establishment so afraid of him...

That Kerry, Gephardt, and Edwards are collaborating to defeat him?

I'm a bit confused.

Establishment candidate usually refers to one aligned with the current powers-that-be.

That would be the DNC and to a lesser extent DLC.

Money does not necessarily have anything to do with it.

By the "multimillionaire" definition of what is establishment, Bill Clinton wouldn't have been an establishment candidate when he ran for re-election in 1996 - because he still wasn't wealthy as politicians go.

I'm just curious how you define establishment.

[DemDogs]

44. Let's see. How about good sense? (n/t)

[Northwind]

15. How is this bad news specifically for Kucinich?

It really doesn't affect him, as he had precisely zero chance (perhaps less) of winning the nomination in the first place.

Sorry, but be realistic.

[MrSoundAndVision]

24. I was wondering when

one of you would say something like that. Very clever. Apparently standing up for my beliefs is a waste of time to you. Well thanks for specifically contributing.

[Northwind]

45. Standing up for your beliefs is fine.

But standing up for them in a blind way without facing reality is just foolish. How much does your principled stand mean if you lose? How can you affect any change if you never get a candidate in office? During the term is when you stand up for principle, not during the campaign.

[no name no slogan]

48. Been there, done that, DOESN'T WORK.

During the term is when you stand up for principle, not during the campaign

Remember Clinton? Why do you think all the liberals got behind him in 1992? He went on to disappoint them, myself included. Even Nixon's administration looked liberal when compared to some of the stuff Clinton supported ("healthcare reform", NAFTA, "welfare reform", "don't ask, don't tell", etc.).

If you don't stand up for something, you'll fall for anything

[OhioStateProgressive]

49. i don't understand, please explain

this is the Primary season...when we are supposed to be blindly following the person who best represents our own personal visions...there will be plenty of time to vote strategically come General Election...it will be quite simple in fact...find the person's name with "D" next to it and put a mark in the box

until then, support who you WANT to win...whoever it is

[cyclezealot]

50. Kucinich's only problem is he will not sell out.

Unlike some of us, the reason for elections should be to effect policy change and not just to win. Not answer my top issues, what the hell good is an election. I don't care if Kucinich has a chance to win or not, I will fight for health care, and end to bad trade deals,and peace issues.This is what Democrats stand for or else they are Democrats without backbone. The media owns democracy in this country. You don't follow their will, there is no access. Thank god, Kucinich talks issues regardless of how it effects his chances.
After Kucinich's confrontration with Joe Klein of Newsweek, I think it about time, we Kucinich supporters get really militant with the media..Not, Kucinich but us.. I'd like to have a chance to have a one on one with Joe Klein. There would be some screaming.SOB.
Kucinich's persona is not the problem, but his lack of ability to tie into the monied interests. When a candidate does that very act, that candidate has lost my confidence. No Kucinich, I will only vote for the lesser of two evils. Want my time and energy they will have to earn my time and effort. No one else out there does that.
As the saying goes- you are not outraged you are not informed. that pertains to Democrats too...I will vote for a Democrat just for the chance they might end the right wing juggernaut and end Patriot Act. To make things significantly better, no one else out there but Kucinich.

[burr]

22. So what's next...a poll tax???

No representation without taxation! Three cheers for cutthroat Gov. Locke..."Washington Gov. Gary Locke, head of the Democratic Governors Association, is calling a special session to discuss scrapping his state's primary next year.

'Why waste $7 million of scarce state money?' Locke said. Democrats in Washington state are using precinct caucuses in February to allocate national convention delegates, making the March 2 primary pointless"


Why indeed...could it be because we pay the taxes and we vote in the primaries? Could it be because we are the party, and a party is nothing without us? Could it be because we pay for law and government, but law and government are nothing without us? Could it be because democracy will never be stopped..only the government which cuts its own throat?

[snoochie]

26. Looks like the corporatized party is afraid of something. n/t

[Egnever]

28. I dissagree this is in fact a boon for kucinich supporters

This does not make it harder on denis it makes it easier. Caucuses are much easier for Denis to win than a primary election would be.

I cant speak for all caucuses. But here in nevada while not as easy as going to a voting booth and casting your ballot. It is very easy for your voice to have a real effect.

Here in Vegas as I understand it(addmitedly I am no expert) the democratic caucuses are held by the state democratic party. Any registered dem is welcome to attend the caucuses. You are alocated on representative for every 50(i think) registered dems in your precinct. Only registered dems are allowed to participate. Anyway turn out traditionaly is low and they dont have near enough people to represent the voters for each precinct so basically if you attend you are almost guarenteed to be a delegate.

Now in order to attend the national convention were the votes are actually cast from all the states for thier nominee. you must attend all three state caucusses here. there is a local one then a county one then a statewide one. At each step you are put up for nomination as a representative of you area and as long as you have no competition (as is often the case) you advance automaticaly. So really it is fairly easy to advance all the way to the floor of the national democratic convention where you get to cat the actually vote for the Dem nominee.

The trick is to get your candidates supporters to the caucuses to try to be delegates. If your candidate has the most motivated suporterse you can easily slant the way your whole state votes.

This is a boon for denis as he can avoid all the morons out there that vote in the primaries based on what they see on fox news and actually use his solid suporters to actually make a difference in his bid.

Reality is Denis doesnt have the cash to lead all the cows out there to the polls in a primary as his polls show. He does however have a good shot at motivating his hard core supporters to attend and influence the caucusses.

I see this as nothing but good for denis.

[MrSoundAndVision]

30. Thanks for the info

I didn't realize it worked like that (in some places at least). I think I'll write the Kucinich campaign and ask them to explain the effect this will have on his chances. And since I genuinely appreciate that, I won't start in on how Dean is the media's boy and how you shouldn't trust the media, and other such points of debate. Thanks.

[Egnever]

34. You're welcome heres a good page

http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P04/events.phtml?format=chronological

It lists a lot of information on each states process.

Dean is definately the medias boy. He has done a good job of making sure of that by making his campaign controversial and exciting to watch. I dont think I have ever seen a campaign do a better job of keeping themselves in the news. One bold step after another keeps him there and not all of it is good press but people keep talking about him just the same.

I joined the dean camp long before anyone was paying atention. before the blog was there when they had one pathetic webpage with an email adress on it that bounced when you tried to send a message to it.

At the time I looked as deeply into his positions as I could and was pleasantly pleased with what I saw. I hapopen to agree with him on nearly all of his positions. I am no a liberal by any stretch of the imagination and I tend to lean closer to independant. Dean fits my views very well. I am for the death penalty I am against gun control... etc etc.

It has been a pleasant journey for me so far watching the guy i picked early and figured had no chance in hell run a brilliant campaign and vault into the frontrunner position. There are plenty of lies and truths about him in the media fortuanatly for me I got to know him before the hype set in.


Denis is way too liberal for my tastes. At the same time I do respect his right and yours to stand up for what you believe in.

Anyway hope the page helps. I really do believe this is the best thing that could have happened for Denis as it somewhat avoids the effect of the garbage that we call the media today and puts him pretty much back on an even playing field with his competition. As long as he fills the caucusses with more supporters than his competition he wins regardless of what the people watching entertainment tonight for thier information are told to think of him.

[MrSoundAndVision]

38. Thanks for the link

and good luck. In the end, if it's Dean, I will support him (of course) for the presidency, but not here. After the November elections though, if it's Dean I'll give the Democratic party another 2 years, otherwise no way. And don't doubt my loyalty, Kucinich is the Jimmy Carter of our era, only more potent, and the Democratic party needs him to shake them up at the highest level, president of the United States.

Thanks again.

[burr]

33. In Georgia's caucus, you have to pay in order to vote and participate.

If I remember right it was about $5 a person, I had 3 people with me...meaning I had to pay $20 bucks to get me and them in!

$20 bucks may not seem like much...until you realize this is the right to vote we're paying for, the right to determine which primary candidate may will be allowed to spend our tax dollars. Then it seems slightly backwards, like they should be the ones reimbursing us for their insane political actions!

[Egnever]

36. Now that you mention it

I think there is a small registration fee here also something along the lines of 5-15 bucks I dont know for sure.

I think this includes transportation to the state caucusses also though so its kind of a deal.

But yea I agree it is kinda weird to have to pay to participate.

I wish I could be more clear but this will be my first caucuss ever so its all new to me too.

[burr]

40. not just weird, my view is this...

if they want the authority to even touch my money or tax me, they sure as hell give me the authority to vote..regardless of how much money I have!

Otherwise unemployed people could wind up being taxed, even though they make no money. This could put them in debt to the government for life, and they would have no say in how taxes are accessed and spent. They would not have the money to spend for participating in our caucuses, or to get representation necessary for any justifiable taxation.

[no name no slogan]

47. I would agree

MN is a caucus state. In fact, Paul Wellstone would not have gotten the DFL endorsement in 1990 if it weren't for the caucus system, as his nomination opponent had much more money and the support of the party elite (which here in MN is the Mondales and the Humphreys, mainly).

Paul's supporters (myself included) basically "overwhelmed" the local precinct caucuses and walked away with the majority of the delegates. Of course, due to the proportional representation the Dems favor, us delegates were also able to win quite handily at the county level, and onward to the congressional district and state level, too. That was how he won, with little money and not much party insider support.

IMHO, DK is set up to do quite well in caucus states, as is Dean. Both campaigns rely on person-to-person organizing, and have supporters who are willing to sit in a classroom for 1 1/2 hours on a cold weekday evening.

Sure, you get less overall participation in a caucus system, but you do get a higher level of participation than you do with just a primary. Caucus attendees actually get to dictate the party platform and vision as well as just the candidates.

This could end up being a boon for DK-- look what happened w/ Jesse Jackson in 1988 in Iowa, another caucus state. He finished in the top three because he had grassroots supporters attending the caucuses. The caucus system truly favors the dedicated grassroots supporters. This could be a good thing after all.

[democratreformed]

35. I disagree

that this is bad specifically for Dennis as well.

I think it is bad for the Democratic party as a whole.

[genius]

42. The Republicans support Dean. This may be a way of getting

their way after his flag fiasco.

[MrSoundAndVision]

43. Republicans support Dean because....

he is a candidate they understand, that they find tangible. They can't understand in the least why Kucinich would have his point of view of the war. This is what we must teach them, that Kucinich's view that the war is filthy in premise and unwinnable in the long run is the correct point of view though not the prevailing understanding in the media. Give it a couple of months, as supporting the war becomes a less popular thing in conversational conservatist circles they may begin to disagree with Bush even.

Read 'The Menace', an article from The New Republic this month.

[OhioStateProgressive]

46. it isn't that bad

Dennis wasn't going to win those states anyways, Dennis couldnow however win those states, because caucuses allow room for a vocal minority to dictate the agenda, it is possible Kucinich supporters can now hijack those caucuses and speak loud enough and forcefully enough to drown out other voices

in fact, i say this is actually rather good

personally I am tired of seeing Dennis be a passive speech giver...he gained fame by being a furious speaker, an empassioned speaker...a man who would "bully from the pulpit"

Dennis called the old white haired City Councilman he beat "A Neandrathal type", in Cleveland magazine...I wish he would allow "The Menace" and "Denny the Kid" to reappear