I like my civil liberties, Dean doesn't??

[quinnox]

I am now even more set against a Dean nomination. I don't want my rights taken away. Dean actually said we need to re-examine our Bill of Rights?? WTF

[dajabr]

1. What's the matter...

Soapbox too small for you in the original thread? Why not continue the discussion where it started?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=8369&mesg_id=8369

[Ripley]

3. Because this is how people spread lies.

Let's count how many Dean-bashes are going on here since GD is down...

[SGrande]

25. dean bashers?

we number at 5 right now..and there are approx 12 deanites here.

Fuzzy math?

[thom1102]

29. Dean bashes, not bashers.

How many threads have been started bashing Dean in "politics and Campaigns" since gd went down.

on edit: RIF

[Ripley]

30. Why thank you.

Just goes to show how they distort on EVERYTHING.

[SGrande]

32. excuse me?

you guys started 4 damn threads!

I started ONE

[SGrande]

31. Umm, all started by Thorbstein

I created ONE thread, thats it.

And he created 4 THREADS on the same issue

[LuminousX]

42. he didn't create this one

I agree that his creation of multiple threads on the topic was in excess. Yet I've counted at least three other threads created by three seperate people on this topic. The Mods should lock 'em down for being dupes.

[SGrande]

23. Oh come on! Look at this thorbestien guy!?

[hedda_foil]

2. Oh come on, quinnox. This is beneath you.

Spinning off a flamefest from another insane flamefest thread.

[quinnox]

5. Because I am shocked!

I can't believe this!!

[LuminousX]

50. Your shock needs a special thread?

nt

[Cha]

57. NOthing is beneath him.

[lastliberalintexas]

4. Dean SAYS we should re-examine and debate

Kerry actually VOTES for the Patriot Act. So are the words or deed more important to you?

[quinnox]

10. There is no excuse for saying

we need to debate our Bill of Rights. This is a sacred document and the bedrock of our country. I don't think anyone who said this is presidential material.

[lastliberalintexas]

16. But it's ok to VOTE for an erosion?

Sorry, but your logic is a little screwy there. I don't hold Kerry's vote against him, but please be honest. Kerry has not said that he wants the Patriot Act repealed, and has not repudiated his vote in any way.

And I didn't see that Dean said there NEEDED to be a debate, just that there WOULD be one. Just a statement indicating what he saw coming, but no indication that he supported having that debate or not.

Tell me FACTUALLY (please) what you like and dislike about Dean. I'm not asking for vitriol here. As a Dean supporter, I am asking for logical, fact based statements concerning why you are so against him.

For example, I like Kerry because he has a good record on most union and women's issues, and because he has the vet thing going for him. I am hesitant about Kerry because of his votes on the Iraq invasion and the Patriot Act. (he's my second choice, btw, so no flames)

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

49. Jesus H. Christ....

I'm feeling all Freepy.

Words.....and VOTES....


Anyone who chooses words over votes is an _______!

C'mon, Kerry people! I know Dean's not on the record and gets a free pass. I apologize for that. BE HONEST! How do you FEEL about the Patriot Act, the IWR and Shrub tax cuts? HONESTLY?!

[lastliberalintexas]

53. I'm sorry?

Kerry isn't my first choice. But maybe I misunderstood your post?

All I was saying is that if you have one person merely SAYING something potentially bad while another person DOES something potentially bad, it is better to have merely uttered words than acted. Obviously it would be exactly the opposite if the potential outcome of the act was good. Not sure that I cleared anything up at all!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

55. You misunderstood.

I agree with you completely on this. It's a no-brainer.

:toast:

[blm]

54. Why is Kerry responsible for Bush's tax cut?

Kerry is already on record that he'd work to fix what's wrong with the Patriot Act in regard to civil liberties and privacy.

[thom1102]

20. Second amendment

The right to bear arms. We on the left have been doing what we can to limit the distribution of firearms. Any discussion of federal gun control laws is a debate on the Bill of Rights.

[Ripley]

34. You make too much sense in this soundbite thread war.

See it's easier just to say "DEAN WANTS TO TAKE MY RIGHTS AWAY" than it is to actually look at what our government has done to the Bill of Rights both by Dems and Repubs over the years.

[jody]

37. OK, but you must include unenumerated rights covered by the Ninth.

Most states recognize that citizens have the inalienable right to defend self and property. An inalienable right cannot be given away, hence it still remains.

Citizens exercise their right to defend themselves by keeping and bearing the same arms used by law enforcement officials and criminals. That is important because SCOTUS has ruled that governments have no obligation to protect an individual.

Your actions "to limit the distribution of firearms" is a direct attack to eliminate an inalienable right. How many more rights do you want to destroy?

[thom1102]

39. I wasn't saying that we should eliminate the Second Amendment

I was pointing out that federal gun control (a pet issue of the left) is an example of debating an issue in the Bill of Rights, and to demonstrate that we have been engaged in this debate for quite a while now.

Inalienable rights were enumerated in the Declaration of Independence, and are inclusive of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness," not the Bill of Rights in the Constitution. While the Bill of rights lays out Constitutionally protected rights, they were divised over two hundred years ago, and as society evolves, the need to examine these rights to determine if they are still germaine is valid. In the past, we have determined that the protections listed in the Bill of Rights have been insufficient to adequately protect the rights of the populace, and have ammended the Constitution to broaden the scope of the protection it affords. That is also a debate on the Bill of Rights.

[jody]

48. I understand, but pleae include state constitutions in your argument.

Starting before the Constitution and Bill of Rights were written.

"I. That all men are born equally free and independent, and have certain natural, inherent and inalienable rights,
amongst which are, the enjoying and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing and protecting property,"
"XIII. That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the state;" (Pa Constitution, 28 Sept. 1776)

Today 28 states recognize an individual's "Right to Keep and Bear Arms" (RKBA) for defense of self and state: AL, AR, CO, CT, DE, FL, IN, KY, MI, MS, MO, MT, NE, NV, NH, NM, ND, OK, OR, PA, SD, TX, UT, VT, WA, WV, WI, WY

Five states recognize an individual's RKBA for the "common defense": AR, KS, MA, OH, TN.

Eleven states say RKBA shall not be infringed": AK, GA, HI, ID, IL, LA, ME, NC, RI, SC, VA.

Six states have no RKBA provision: CA, IA, MD, MN, NJ, NY.

NINTH AMENDMENT: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people"

[killbotfactory]

6. Then why do you support Kerry?

Who, to this day, says the only thing wrong with the PATRIOT act is that Ashcroft is in charge.

[quinnox]

7. I am talking about what Dean said

What he said is insane! I am truly shocked, and scared. I don't want my rights taken away.

[killbotfactory]

8. You said you won't support someone who want's to take away your right

And yet you support Kerry despite Kerry's support of blatantly unconstitutional laws.

[walkon]

9. BushCo Tactics

Don't work here.

[quinnox]

14. Careful

Your post is close to being out of bounds.

[thom1102]

36. As opposed to what?

Look at some of the hysterical vitriol in this (and other anti-Dean threads) and then you try to figure what is in and out of bounds!
:eyes:

[SGrande]

38. I did not start this out to be like this!

I got e-mailed the links and I posted "Dean ASSAULTS civil liberties"

I worded it that way because I thought no one would pay attention to the topic if i didnt, guess i was wrong :(

It all started after Dajabar and I were having a nice conversation. It all errupted when Deanites invaded, throwing insults around and calling Kerry supporters names...

[DianeK]

13. too late...

take another look, most of your rights are gone now

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

51. You're shocked and scared that you're supporting a man

who VOTED FOR the Patriot Act. Dean had nothing to do with it. Praise Russ Feingold. Hallelujah!

[deutsey]

11. Honestly, civil liberties is the reason why I cooled on my support

for Kerry.

As an anti-war activist, I was still deferential to Kerry's vote on giving Bush war powers (I felt that because he was a combat veteran, I trusted his decision on this, even though I didn't agree with it at all).

The Patriot Act, though, pushed me out of Kerry's camp (although I'll vote for him if he gets the nomination).

Dean's post-9/11 comments don't increase my enthusiasm for him, to be sure, but, man, he certainly was not alone in saying these kinds of things at that time. Wasn't Kucinich the only one who didn't vote for the Patriot Act in Congress? There certainly was only a small minority of politicians who opposed it in Congress. That means we're going to have some slim pickings if we hold everyone accountable for their comments and actions in the traumatic aftermath of 9/11.

[SGrande]

26. LOOK at dean though~!

Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street.”

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said

[Mairead]

60. Yes, Kucinich is the only candidate who voted against it

There were others in Congress who also voted against it, but they're not standing for President.

There are so many negatives about Dr Dean --and about Kerry, recently-- that I honestly can't imagine why anyone supports them. It doesn't speak well for us that we're not only willing but even eager to support someone whom we have to defend by skewed, partisan interpretation rather than merely pointing to their record. What's the point? What do we get out of it?

I support Dennis Kucinich because there is nothing I have to defend him on by saying okay he's not good but so-and-so is worse. I despise his flag vote and refuse to try to be an apologist for it, but that's all. On peace, freedom, honesty, and social justice--what should be the core commitments of anyone claiming to be a Democrat--he's miles in front. That he is not eagerly supported by everyone at DU speaks poorly of DUers, in my opinion.

[genius]

12. Why do people in America blindly follow charismatic leaders?

We've had examples of Hitler, Mussolini, and lots of other historical figures who were blindly followed. Good people didn't want to know where they stood on the issues. We saw this with Bush after 9/11. Now we are seeing it with the Deanies. I cannot believe that these people are as right-wing radical in their approach as Dean appears to be and yet they blindly follow him. Anyone who dares to tell the truth about where Dean stands on the issues is put down as being negative. How dare we discuss Dean's stances? What is the difference between Deanies and the Bushies and the Nazis? How do we immunize these people against this willingness to blindly follow leaders and to instead look at facts and issues?

[deutsey]

15. Well, I see it's time to leave this thread

This post is just plain silly.

[LuminousX]

18. Dean=Hitler?

Please.

Dean is not some Svengali convincing us to follow him. His positions aren't even extremely populist.

Try again.

[SGrande]

21. No its his rabid following

even though , occasionally, just like everyone human, Dean is wrong.

But they CANNOT even admit it when he is.

Its sad. they Pick on other DU members

AND WE ARE SICK AND TIRED OF BEING PUSHED AROUND BY DEANITES

[ButterflyBlood]

19. oh come on

you're sounding like the freepers now. give me a break.

[SGrande]

27. EXACTLY

the issue is the DEANITES mean spiritness and picking on other members of the DU in support of DEAN.

I AM TIRED OF BEING PUSHED AROUND BY THEIR GESTAPO TACTICS

[Cha]

56. you are an insult.

and no genius.

[philosophie_en_rose]

58. Are you insane?

Do you really think that there is no difference between Dean and Bush? For one thing, Dean can speak English...

There is a grain of truth in the sense that some supporters of Dean are as dedicated to Dean as morans are to Bush. However, to say that people who are dedicated to truth are as incredible as people who worship lies - simply on the basis of being passionate - is incorrect.

Dean and the Hitler comparison is just repugnant. As far as I know, there was no Prescott Dean. No DFEE.

[bpilgrim]

59. it's called human nature, evolved over the millenium, of what we like in a

'LEADER'

unfortunately a lot has to do with marketing... and being 'in-tune' with your audience.

dean - and his team - are very good at it doesn't make'em 'hitler' and no-where near *

peace

[LuminousX]

17. This is laughable

I may be ill-informed, lacking in knowledge of what has happened in Vermont, but what actions has Dean taken that has curtailed people's civil rights and what lawsuits were brought against him when he did so?

A lot of bluster here with any real purpose. I think someone got slipped some nifty talking points and are trying to use them. It won't work. Dean has clarified his postion on this issue already.

[SGrande]

22. Kerry clarified his war vote, but they won't leave it alone

The point is not the issue, its his rabid fan base

[LuminousX]

41. Report Those Who Attack You

The system only works if you use it.

[genius]

24. Let's not look at the truth about Dean

It's so easy to be a blind follower. I'm glad those references were posted earlier today to Dean's anti-civil rights stance. But it will only help those with open minds.

[SGrande]

28. haha, right on !

:evilgrin:

[Qutzupalotl]

33. Something for open minds

The continuation of Dean's quote:

Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said:

“I haven't gotten that far yet. I think that's unlikely, but I frankly haven't gotten that far. Again, I think that's a debate that we will have.”

(He was asking for a debate about the appropriate balance of freedom and security. This was before the Patriot Act came to light. Dean believes parts of that are unconstitutional.)

[SGrande]

35. You are right

If you look at the first post, Dajabar and myself were talking about that and trying to figure out Dean and Kerry's stances now, today.

Then the wacko-jacko deanites came in, throwing insults around.

I finish the thread off here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=8369&mesg_id=8613&page=

Someone finally answered me, i thanked him, and we can move on.

Then 4 new threads bashing Kerry over the patriot act pop up...

[mdmc]

40. Kucinich would never erode civil rights

or vote for the PATRIOT ACT. If you don't like Dean or Kerry, you still have DK and Rev. Al. Support them - protect your rights!

[indigo32]

44. You joined yesterday?

and your whining about the Deanites with every other post?
Sorry if your complaints lack credibility.

I will however take note of what has been said, and do some more research. I think we're all smart enough here to quit painting with such a broad brush as to call all of a candidates supporters brainwashed, ect...

[Mairead]

61. And that's good, is it?

[MercutioATC]

43. Don't EVEN talk about "truth", Mr. "9.4% unemployment rate"

Remember the post where you claimed Vermont's unemployment rate was 9.4%? No? I'll refresh your memory:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=5230&mesg_id=5230#5374

I responded to the post and provided a U.S. Bureau of Labor link that showed the TRUE rate at 4.1% (tied for 7th best in the nation). I also sent you a PM asking that you review the information and retract your erroneous statement.

You chose to let the statement stand.

...seems your "blind follower" label applies to people other than Dean supporters, no?

[genius]

45. New Mexico is irrelevant

Didn't you have a better source?

[MercutioATC]

46. I never said anything about New Mexico...HERE'S the link again...

http://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.vt.htm

Bureau of Labor Statistics link to Vermont unemployment rates.

You have a better source than this?

(on edit)

AARON posted a link to the New Mexico Department of Labor's site (which still has factual data for the entire country). I posted a link to the U.S. Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics.

[Nicholas_J]

47. Dean outdid John Ashcroft in Vermont

Dean chose not to reappoint Appel for a third four-year term as defender general, the state official who heads the state’s public defender program. In appointing Valerio, of Proctor, the new defender general, Dean had kind words for Appel. But Appel had clashed with Dean on numerous occasions in his efforts to secure for his office the resources necessary to fulfill his duties conscientiously.

Just two years ago Dean tried to prevent Appel from accepting a $150,000 federal grant aimed at assisting defendants with mental disabilities. For Dean to block a government agency from receiving federal money was unusual in itself. But Dean’s openly expressed bias against criminal defendants provided a partial explanation.

Dean has made no secret of his belief that the justice system gives all the breaks to defendants. Consequently, during the 1990s, state’s attorneys, police, and corrections all received budget increases vastly exceeding increases enjoyed by the defender general’s office. That meant the state’s attorneys were able to round up ever increasing numbers of criminal defendants, but the public defenders were not given comparable resources to respond.

http://rutlandherald.com/Archive/Articles/Article/31792

The problem with giving a disproportionate share of state resources to prosecution and enforcement is that it throws the justice system out of kilter. A just result occurs in court only when the prosecution and defense both are ably represented.

[LuminousX]

52. Hyperbole

But at least it is a detailing of events that allow people to make up their own minds regarding Dean. This information shouldn't be dismissed, but processed. Saying he outdid Ashcroft is a bit extreme, though and a bit inflammatory.