Is gay marriage too touchy to be discussed in this forum?

[helleborient]

I was just curious since the decision in Massachusetts yesterday is easily the item from the news yesterday that will most profoundly affect our country.

I heard two candidates responses - Dean's and Kerry's, and didn't particularly love either one.

Dean sort of rambling that the court would support something like the civil unions in Vermont - What I heard was the court most definitely saying civil unions did not go far enough.

And John Kerry saying he disagreed with gay marriage but the court's decision should stand...which sounded wimpy to me as well.

Looks to me like the candidates are just waiting to be clobbered from all directions on this issue, and meanwhile the LGBT community feels let down again.

On the other hand, Ted Kennedy had a wonderful statement in full support, and Margaret Cho's take on it on NPR this morning was priceless...American culture today is like white people stealing rock-n-roll from black people and still supporting segregation. The majority of Americans love what they can steal from gay culture - Will and Grace to glorification of interior designers - but don't you dare go doing something like getting married!!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. This is the real problem with the DEM party

They now dance around principles in favor of pleasing everyone and NOT taking a stand for equality no matter whom it may displease.

[JohnKleeb]

2. Whatcha talkin about last I saw

88% of us are all for it. I dunno, just add gay marriage to another reason to support Kucinich, that list is long :D.

[helleborient]

3. Do you have any links to comments made by Dennis?

I would be happy to see them.

I agree with you that the majority here seem to be in favor of gay marriage...but many of our candidates directly oppose or seem rather wishy-washy on it, that's why I was interested in any comments about it.

[JohnKleeb]

13. sure

http://www.kucinich.us/issues/issue_gayrights.htm
Plus do you remember Rock the Vote? He said it there too.

[helleborient]

14. Thanks...your colleagues beat you to it

:-)

[JohnKleeb]

16. no problem

:) Actually lol as a semi-socialist lol I call em my comrades heh. That issue has been on DK's page since the summer I tell you thats for sure.

[helleborient]

26. I am confident, John...

That your generation will make LGBT rights the law of the land...and doing otherwise will look as unfair as racial segregation looks now.

But I'm impatient.

[JohnKleeb]

30. I know all about impatientness

believe me. I am impatient about a lot of stuff. Impatient about gettin Bush out, impatient about life, impatient about purusing a peaceful tommorow.

[Pez]

4. here is kerry's statement; plus some info going back 20 years...

kerry`s statement:

“I have long believed that gay men and lesbians should be assured equal protection and the same benefits – from health to survivor benefits to hospital visitation - that all families deserve. While I continue to oppose gay marriage, I believe that today’s decision calls on the Massachusetts state legislature to take action to ensure equal protection for gay couples. These protections are long over due.”

kerry also introduced legislation back in 1985 that gave equal protection to lesbians and gays... very important move, especially way back in the day. he's said that he opposes gay marriage for religious reasons, but supports equal protection, rights and benefits for gay couples.

i don't see the big effing deal about calling it "marriage". apparently it is political suicide right now to propose calling it "marriage"... does anyone have contact with mega-christian right-wingers? i don't know anyone i could talk to to get a feel for how the average RW freaks "reason" through this one.

[helleborient]

6. Standing up for gay marriage would be a statement of principle...

Sorry, supporting equal protection is continuing to discriminate.

As Margaret Cho also pointed out...a straight person can go to Las Vegas and legally be married by Elvis or at a drive-thru. Trying to argue that defending heterosexual marriage is defending something "sacred" is rather unbelievable when defending heterosexual marriage is defending the Las Vegas marriage industry.


Also, the "Defense of Marriage" act means same sex couples are not eligible for the rights bestowed by 1,049 federal statutes.
A straight person can receive family discounts at our national parks. A family with a same sex couple at the head does not. This is ridiculous, and I would like to see John Kerry stand up and say that is ridiculous. He will not!

[Pez]

17. how's this for principle:

"gay marriage makes me uncomfortable, just like anybody else."

-dean

so you're going to ignore everything kerry's done just because he didn't do something more?

[JohnKleeb]

19. Pez if you read what hellob is saying in this thread

He's disappointed in Dean as well for not posting his view on gay marriage on the website. I think all three have done well on gay rights that is Kerry, Dean, and Kucinich.

[helleborient]

24. Yes, they've moved it forward...

But when I compare Kucinich's position with those of Dean and Kerry - I again have questions come up to me about sincerity vs. catering to the LGBT community for political gain.

Neither Kerry or Dean are a "profile in courage" on LGBT issues in this campaign..They will pull out what they've done to please the LGBT audience, but when the Mass. court makes it a major national issue - their response is muted. I think it's considered too much of a hot potato on the national scene to touch.

I understand that as a pragmatist, but I'm still disappointed because the issues are very important to me personally.

It's a common place to be since none of the candidates are perfect.

[helleborient]

21. I don't like Dean's position either...

And I think my posts are completely clear about that on this thread...

Read my discussion of the websites further down.

John Kerry or Howard Dean could talk about the importance of this decision and work it in as a major part of their campaigns (it was frontpage news across the country after all)...but both are too wishy-washy on the issue to do it.

And I think it is an expedient decision for both.

I don't believe either Howard Dean or John Kerry really have a major personal problem with gay marriage...I believe they are both pandering to the public on this issue instead of leading. And they are both responsible for that decision.

[Pez]

23. i wonder if it's the hot hot hot issue that the pukes make it out to be

sorry, didn't see your other posts. i wish kerry would go the kucinich route in his statement.

does anyone know any hard-core right-wing christians? have you asked them what they think about this? would this really sink the party in the general election? do the majority of voters react violently to the idea of gay "marriage"?

????

i do think, however, that during a dem presidency with a dem majority in congress any of the candidates would pass a gay marriage law. unfortunately at the moment with the pukes owning all three branches that is impossible :-\

[helleborient]

25. It's a big issue here in the Midwest...

And it makes a lot of centrist people uncomfortable.

My main hope is that once we elect a Democratic president they will use the bully pulpit to push things forward, but then I hoped that with Clinton and gays in the military.

I'm prepared to be disappointed on this one.

[Pez]

27. i'm in nyc so my perspective is skewed a bit...

...i don't know anyone who is against gay marriage. i actually don't know anyone who even thinks it's a big deal... is this is going to be an issue that could possibly be distorted by the pukes to destroy our candidate? i don't know.

i do know, however, that any of our candidates ('cept Teh Lieb maybe) would go much farther in advancing GLBT rights than the current resident select.

i think kerry would sign a gay marriage law on a federal level if we managed to get the congress back. there's no effing WAY those jackhole pukes would ever EVER pass it the way things are now :-(

first step: take back the WH.

[no name no slogan]

28. There was a story in the Nation a few weeks back

about how the Dems needed a "rural strategy" against the repubs. (link: http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20031103&s=nichols2)

The writer argued that most rural voters are more concerned about corporations destroying small farms and town than they are about civil unions or other "hot button" cultural issues.

I think most Americans don't give a damn about something like this, as long as it doesn't affect their pocketbooks. They're more concerned about economics and how we're going to get this country back on track.

If it comes up, just acknowledge it, and EXPLAIN WHY it's the right thing to do. Don't mince around it, or obfuscate the issue with some half-assed "explanation" that you think will pacify Bubba.

If you TAKE A STAND and say WHY you think something is right, you'll not only get the respect of ALL voters (regardless if they support you or not), but you'll probably win over a few because you're not afraid to TELL THE TRUTH, too!

It worked for Wellstone.

[helleborient]

29. It's too easy to whip up fear on this...

And it's a potential wedge issue between generations.

I would expect if you did a graph...support for LGBT rights is strongly correlated with age.

Those under 25 would make gay marriage legal in an instant...I don't think most elderly Democrats would.

[a_lil_wall_fly]

5. Yeah lets get the ultra-radical Christian Republicans pissed off

:party::party::party::party::party::party::party::party::party::party:
and lets get weed and the criminalization of it on the front burner
and police brutality and misconduct


:hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie::hippie:

and lets get the enviromental and ecological issues there too

:D

[goodhue]

7. Kucinich Applauds Ruling on Same-Sex Marriage

Kucinich Applauds Ruling on Same-Sex Marriage

"As a candidate for president who publicly supports federal legislation for gay marriage, I applaud the Massachusetts Supreme Court for upholding the civil rights of citizens in their state by ruling it is unconstitutional for the state to deny marriage to gay and lesbian couples. The historic Goodridge et al. v. Department of Public Health decision can light the way for equality for all Americans.

"The effort by members of the Massachusetts state legislature to push a Denial of Marriage Act is a divisive measure. There must be federal protection for civil rights issues. Gay and lesbian couples should have equal protection under civil law. No state has a right to abridge basic rights to privacy. Separate is not equal.

"The right to marry is a civil right that should not be denied. I support federal legislation for civil marriage between same-sex couples. Civil Unions do not provide equal rights to LGBT Americans. According to a 1997 GAO report, civil marriage provides at least 1,049 legal protections and responsibilities from the federal government, including the right to take leave from work to care for a family member, the right to sponsor a spouse for immigration purposes, and Social Security survivor benefits that can make a difference between old age in poverty and old age in security. Civil unions are a kind of limbo with regard to governmental functions performed by both state and federal governments, such as taxation, pension protections, and provision of insurance for families."

http://www.kucinich.us/

[helleborient]

8. Thank you Dennis!!!

And thank you for posting this

[no name no slogan]

10. Thanks for posting this

I was going to go find it myself if nobody else did!

Another thing different about the Kucinich position is that Kucinich wants to allow gay civil MARRIAGE at the FEDERAL level-- not just "civil unions" on a state-by-state basis.


What's the difference? Well, if you're gay in Alabama, and you want to get married to your partner, good luck waiting for state law to "come around" to your side.

Also, legal marriage has many benefits that you cannot enjoy as an unmarried couple (right to property, inheritance, etc). There are many perks that married couples get under tax law that will automatically apply to same-sex couples, without needing to rewrite the laws to include "civil unions" or whatever the term du jour is.

It is the easiest and the most fair way to give everyone equal protection under the law, regardless of your sexual orientation.

[helleborient]

12. Yes, I'm looking forward to the potential some day...

For something even more radical...when someone turns 18, just let them register to give one person the civil benefits on property, inheritance, etc. that are bestowed on the married...and it doesn't matter if they are a life partner, brother, best friend, whatever.

[helleborient]

9. The front page of DeanforAmerica

Lists the new Native American platform, the economic speech from last night, a statement about Charlie Dean, then older news - higher ed, the unions.

No mention of the gay marriage issue - very sad

John Kerry's site does give him credit for opposing the "Defense Of Marriage" act...but you have to head down menus to find it...and no statement visible about the court decision...I suppose since he would be forced to say he opposes gay marriage.

Thank you Dennis Kucinich!

[no name no slogan]

11. That's why so many of us like him

but you knew that already!!! :hi:

[JohnKleeb]

15. Wouldnt he have a gay rights issue box

:shrug:
See this is the reason why many of us like him. Well I got my other reasons too.

[helleborient]

18. One of these days I hope Democratic politicians as a whole

Will push civil rights for LGBT folk to the fore...just like Harry Truman did with ethnically based civil rights in the 40's...but I'm not confident 2004 will be the year.

[Pez]

20. kerry has it on the blog:

Kerry On Mass. Gay Marriage Ruling

Earlier this morning, the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court ruled 4-3 that denying same-sex couples the right to marry violates the state constitution. But the court did not order marriage licenses to be granted immediately to same-sex couples. The ruling gives the Legislature 180 days to "take such action as it may deem appropriate" on issuing marriage licenses.

In a statement, John Kerry said:

“I have long believed that gay men and lesbians should be assured equal protection and the same benefits – from health to survivor benefits to hospital visitation - that all families deserve. While I continue to oppose gay marriage, I believe that today’s decision calls on the Massachusetts state legislature to take action to ensure equal protection for gay couples. These protections are long over due.”

Continue reading this entry...

[helleborient]

22. Sen. Kerry, legal gay marriage is long overdue!

And putting it on the blog is not making an effort to lead on the issue.

How about a speech or major policy statement about it??

[sandnsea]

31. Here we go again

First, on the upper right hand of the page is the issues/news/blog box. The Kerry campaign news pops up right in that box, right on the home page. If you click it, his statement is linked right there. He made gay rights an issue back in 1985, he wrote and introduced the first legislation, in his first year in office. We wouldn't be having this discussion today if he hadn't led the way on it.

Why does Senator Kerry have to jump a higher bar on everything than any other candidate? He's already done 5 times more on gay issues than any other candidate that I know of, and not behind closed doors either, and it still isn't enough.

[helleborient]

33. I would prefer for John Kerry and Howard Dean to cross the same bar...

As Dennis Kucinich.

[sandnsea]

34. What's Dennis done?

He's been in Congress since 1996. He introduced gay civil rights legislation in 2001, that's it. How committed to gay rights and gay marriage is that? I think someone who was fighting for gay rights and introducing legislation consistently for almost 20 years has already crossed any bar that needs crossing. His record proves he'd take the lead as President. No other candidate's record proves that, regardless of what they say during a campaign.

[idontwantaname]

32. hey helleborient and all you other DUers...

seems that this gay marriage issue fits just right in this forum!