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wetbandit2003 Donating Member (89 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 02:26 PM
Original message
Question about oil
I have a question about oil

It seems that higher oil prices are the blame for higher consumer prices, especially in the food sector. We are feeling the pain at the pumps, and we all from time to time gripe at gas station attendants for getting shafted at the pumps. What I dont understand is, why do we have other countries drill our oil for us, instead of looking for our own here in U.S.? And why have we not built any refineries since the 1970's to keep up with demand?

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shoelace414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. I have another question about oil
how many refineries have been expanded (many of them)

and why aren't we raising CAFE standards?
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ramapo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Blame Clinton/Gore and America for lower CAFE
The Clinton admin bowed to pressure from the auto lobby to not raise CAFE standards. They also allowed plenty of shenanigans in regards to classifying behemoth SUVs as cars, not trucks.

Americans demand their SUVs and such in order to take advantage of the God-given right to use up as much oil as possible, consequences be damned.

Then when the price goes up the blame goes on the oil industry consipiracy to rip off the consumer.

As other have noted, the US oilfields are for the most part not cost-effective. Too little left to make extraction worthwhile.

Yes Alaska has some significant fields but at our rate of use, there;'s only a few years' worth. So we should trash the last semi-pristine part of the country for a couple of dozen months of fuel?

Conservation would save more oil than we could find in this country. Perhaps when gas is $5/gal folks will start thinking like we did in the '70s. Smaller is better. It sure is a hell of a lot safer.
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theivoryqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. no new fields except in Alaska on our soil
Edited on Tue Jul-27-04 02:31 PM by theivoryqueen
they are pumping the hell out of almost tapped out fields now - like in the permian basin.

on edit - also offshore drilling sites...
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Upfront Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. Part Answer
When you have fewer refineries you are better able to control the price. This is the main reason for the high gas price. The big boys have control.
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Wright Patman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
4. The continental U.S.
is what is called a "mature province" in geological terms. There have been literally thousands of wells drilled all over the country over the past nearly 150 years. There is very little chance of striking any Saudi-style discoveries of crude oil in the lower 48.

There are some already verified reserves in Alaska, but they have been placed off-limits to exploration and exploitation.
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pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
5. There are more oil and gas wells in the US
than in most of the rest of the world combined. We're tapped out.
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
6. Ok, simple answer to both
Oil corporations, you know, the guys that back repubs, decide
where to invest their drilling dollars, right now, that's in
other countries.

The truth is that there hasn't been a major oil discovery in the
US in a very very long time (read up on Peak Oil and you'll see
that peak US oil was sometime in the 60's). This is mostly
an accident of geology. Oil is often referred to as an accident
of geology.

As for refineries, why don't you tell us where you live, and that
you and your neighbors have all decided that an oil refinery would
be a dandy thing to have in your back yard. What's that? Oh,
YOU don't want an oil refinery in your backyard because they are
dangerous and they smell and nobody wants to live near one... so
now your question is "Why haven't we found some more poor people
who can't fight back with lawsuits and put new oil refineries in
THEIR backyards?"

And it's possible, just maybe, that oil companies are lying their
asses off about refinery capacity and the need for new refineries
SO THEY CAN MANIPULATE THE PRICE OF GASOLINE! Naw, couldn't
happen.
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wetbandit2003 Donating Member (89 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Actually,
As for refineries, why don't you tell us where you live, and that
you and your neighbors have all decided that an oil refinery would
be a dandy thing to have in your back yard. What's that? Oh,
YOU don't want an oil refinery in your backyard because they are
dangerous and they smell and nobody wants to live near one... so
now your question is "Why haven't we found some more poor people
who can't fight back with lawsuits and put new oil refineries in
THEIR backyards?"


If there could be some sort of planning to build a refinery in the area where I live. I wouldnt mind if there was an oil refinery in the adjacent area where I live if it meant more refining capacity and lower gas prices, besides,dont you think that a refinery might also create more jobs in the area?


And it's possible, just maybe, that oil companies are lying their
asses off about refinery capacity and the need for new refineries
SO THEY CAN MANIPULATE THE PRICE OF GASOLINE! Naw, couldn't
happen.


Back in the late 90's the government had let the oil companies consolidate and didnt require the oil companies to keep a minimal reserve, so Im not surprised if there is some collusion and price fixing.
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. My last point

was that we don't need new refineries. If they really could
make more money by building another refinery, you think they
wouldn't do it? They use the EXCUSE of lack of refining capacity
to do what they want to do, which is manipulate the price of
gasoline.

BTW, glad you don't mind a refinery going into your 'hood.
There will be some jobs, but not a lot (new refineries are highly
automated). Get your neighbors together and sign a petition and
send it to your local governments and send it to the oil companies.
Oh, you need to be near a major ocean shipping port because they
won't pay to transship crude from tanker to truck to refinery.
These days it's tanker to refinery holding tank.
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Nadienne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Where they invest their drilling dollars...
It always goes back to themselves and their friends, no matter where they drill. It kindof reminds me of logging in NE Minnesota. Some of the locals want the logging companies to be able to log the national parks and wilderness up there.

I hear logging companies usually bring in their own workers.

Kinda like Halliburton and Iraq.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
7. Oil production from US wells peaked in the 70's


Oil is finite. It is the result of biological and geological processes and is distributed randomly around the globe. We have almost used up our own supply. There is a lot left in the Middle East because they (randomly) had more to start with and began exploiting it more recently.

Saudi Arabia is #1 in oil reserves, Iraq is #2.

Some people have suggested that getting our hands on Iraq's oil may be the leading real (but unspoken) reason that the Bush admin invaded.
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TO Kid Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
28. Your ranking is outdated
Canada is #2 in proven oil reserves and there is speculation that our oilsands may hold more than Saudi Arabia.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. "Convetional" reserves.
The ERoEI of tar, sand and shale sucks.
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Nadienne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
11. Why hasn't an alternative to energy from fossil fuel
become the standard?

We put a man on the moon - decades ago. If we could do that, we should be able to do so much more... right?

Why aren't there more solar and wind generators? Sure, we can't use them all the time. The sun doesn't always shine, the wind doesn't always blow, but their energy can be stored in batteries.

And while we're stuck with oil, why not focus on improving the fuel economy of our cars?

While we're at it, why do some drug dealers let you try heroine for free the first time?

Isn't dependency wonderful?
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TO Kid Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
27. Been there, done that
We still haven't come up with an energy source that is cheaper or easier to produce than oil. Most of the alternatives are either costly (nukes, solar), environmentally devastating (hydro, coal), unreliable (wind), consume more energy than they deliver (ethanol) or require vast tracts of arable land (biodiesel). There is a place for all of these technologies but we're kidding ourselves if we seriously expect them to replace even a small fraction of our oil use.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. And you're kidding yourself if you don't expect us to HAVE TO
replace most of our oil use, eventually.
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Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
13. Most important point...
Edited on Tue Jul-27-04 05:18 PM by DanSpillane
The Bush administration has a policy which heavily encourages CONSUMPTION of oil. Low interest rates, tax breaks for guzzling SUVs, etc. Gas mileage per gallon is at a multi-decade low.

It's not as if they should be in the dark--

You do know, the Bush admin has the highest percentage of high-level ex- oil execs and auto execs than any government in history???

You do know that....right????? I'm surprised no one in the media has ever printed the story outlining this....the number of Bush admin folks from oil and autos...
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
14. Oil refineries are too expensive for one greedy company to build
so they continually expand their existing facilities and run them at maximum capacity. That way, all the refiners can "work together" at helping to limit the quantity of refined gasoline, and VOILA! $2 gallons of gas. That's why we need to nationalize the oil refineries. Let those of us who have been getting screwed by the industry OWN the very weapon they use to screw us.
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TO Kid Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. Don't forget the mandates that mean small batches
Every jurisdiction has different standards for gasoline formulae, so instead of producing large batches of just a few grades they have to blend hundreds of different products and track the locations to which they are shipped, which is a logistical nightmare. In some cases, gasoline sold in one area cannot be sold in a neighbouring jurisdiction because it contains locally-mandated ingredients that are banned elsewhere.
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rfkrocks Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
15. what is amazing is the USA forgot all it learned in the1970s
and why the survival of the fittest trait depends on learning from mistakes-if you fail to adapt and learn you die-well all the oil estimates that were made in the 1980s were made when the Asian giant was still using bamboo and muscle power to grow their economy-now China with a growing need that will dwarf our feeble population is hooked on the black crude as well. Face it peak oil is here or almost here-science does matter which is why we need to develop new fuel sources asap-but Americans are taught suck ass science-we are falling behind in biological science and mechanical science-witness stem cell and the fact that the Japanese are building hybrids like they are going out of style-meanwhile Detroit is hooked on Hummers (a piece of crap on wheels)-way behind the curve-I think Edison is puking in his grave at the fact we are technologically advanced but we are still using 1850 fuel models-all the creation science won't make oil go back in the ground-anti-science is the hallmark of the GOP and they control the government but wishing there was more oil won't make it happen-get ready to pay alot for fuel forever as long as the oil twins are pres and VP
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Vulture Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. We should be looking at diesel, not hybrids
Diesel is the obvious near-term solution, for a number of reasons.

1.) Diesel, is substantially more fuel efficient than gas motors in general. They are also more reliable and last nearly forever (the typical designed life cycle of consumer diesel engines is in the ballpark of 500k miles).

2.) Diesel can deliver the same fuel efficiency as gas-hybrid while being a far more elegant and mature engineering solution. It also performs much better on the road under a broader range of conditions, and in many environments will substantially outperform the current crop of hybrids in terms of fuel efficiency.

But the really important one is this:

3.) There is FAR more diesel grade crude in the world and in North America in particular than there is gasoline grade crude. Not all crude is created equal, and not all of it can be used to manufacture gasoline. As a result, different regions of the world trade crude with other regions to get the crude fractions that they need -- the small amount of crude we import from the middle east (~15%) is to boost the gasoline fraction. If we primarily used modern diesel engines in our vehicles rather than gasoline engines, we would have all the crude fraction we need right here in our hemisphere. The Americas have gobs of crude that is great for making diesel but useless for making gas. It would also put all that crappy Russian crude to good use (a similar situation).
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rfkrocks Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. then why is your solution not being implemented?
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Vulture Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. History, mostly, but its changing
Because Americans don't like diesels except in trucks (where it makes huge sense), primarily because the last time they were introduced to the American public, diesels weren't nearly as good as they are now and not very compelling. They also aren't quite as "sporty" as gas engines, and there was little economic upside to using them at the time. Europeans DO use diesels a lot, in part because fuel is so expensive in Europe.

Fortunately, Daimler-Chrysler is outfitting many of their new models (both under the german and american brands) in the US with the diesels that they use in their European production lines as standard options, so over the next few years diesel should start to become a viable option again.

Another issue is that although diesel is cheaper fuel than gasoline, it is taxed more heavily than gasoline in the US which mostly cancels out any price-per-gallon savings you would see by switching to diesel. The primary savings you see currently is improved gas mileage versus gasoline.

Since Mercedes and all the Chrysler divisions are going to start offering diesels for only a small price increase over gasoline (compared to the ~$4-5k difference for the few vehicles where that is an option today), I am seriously considering buying one for my next vehicle.
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rfkrocks Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. History? what kind of answer is that?
Your European model is not correct either-Europeans have mass transit systems that makes ours a joke-we have no mass transit system and we let the rails system crash because the government especially the GOP are Halliburton whores hooked on Crude pipe-History has taught us that corporate ownership of the government is fundamentally in opposition to the republic-now we have a government of Condi Rice's that have oil tankers named after them- a corporation that impedes new science-under the Bushshit party we are encouraged to consume as much as possible- Diesel is great if you like lung cancer but in fact history shows that countries that fatten themselves and then go into massive debt are more likely to succumb to market forces-American science is fast approaching second rate-Diesel would be great if we didn't have to breathe but I don't think republicans want us to breathe either-better die and decrease the surplus population
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TO Kid Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. Mass transit would work
But only in places that are as crowded as Europe. Paris is smaller than Toronto but there are more people in that city than there are in all of Southern Ontario.
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Vulture Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. We don't have mass transit because liberals stop high-density construction
Seriously, it is one of the most annoying contradictions of the left-wing in practice. I live in a left-wing mecca (the SF bay area) which is completely controlled by the Democrats.

They adamantly refuse to allow high-density housing to be constructed because they like trees, views, and open spaces, and then complain about urban sprawl and the lack of effective public transit. You can't have it both ways.

The reason we don't have public transit is because most US cities are highly suboptimal from the standpoint of public transportation. Not surprisingly, the only cities with effective public transit are also those cities that are old enough that they were built in the high-density Old World pre-car way.

So you'll have to get off the public transit canard until both the Democrats and Republicans stop giving lip service to the notion and engineer a plan that will allow new cities to be built that can support it.
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rfkrocks Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-04 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #32
33.  generalizations about the democratic party
Edited on Thu Jul-29-04 07:40 AM by rfkrocks
and I am sure you like trees too
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Petrodollar Warfare Donating Member (628 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-27-04 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
19. Once you understand EROEI - then you'll have the answer...
The United States remains the world's largest energy consumer. The U.S. represents 5% of the world's population, yet we consume more than 25% of the world's oil production. Our neighbor to the north, Canada, is next most wasteful energy consumer. It is estimated that the U.S. will consume 7.5 billion barrels of oil in 2004.

However, U.S. oil U.S. oil production is currently at its lowest level since the early 1950s and is declining by more than 2% per year. U.S. oil production peaked in 1971, and U.S. oil reserves have fallen from 50 billion to 20 billion barrels. It is projected that by 2010 that the United States will have less than 15 billion barrels of domestic oil reserves.

The 2001 energy plan headed by Vice President Cheney projects global oil demand by 2020 will be 100 million barrels of oil per day, up from 75 million barrels as of 2001. However, even the most optimistic scenarios by veteran geologist project that $1 trillion in new infrastructure investment may only result in an additional output of 15 million barrels per day.183 Given that aggregate demand will increase to 25 million barrels a day, the US remains in a dilemma.

The analysis suggests that the world oil production will fall 10% short of projected demand. A few former government officials such as former U.K. environment minister from 1997-2003, Micheal Meacher are now speaking publicly about the imminent reality of Peak Oil.

“This extra demand simply cannot be met. We would have to find and develop the equivalent of 10 new North Sea oilfields in just a decade. Even if Iraq's oilfields are fully developed, with almost unlimited new investment and new technology, it could only produce an extra 6 million barrels, or a mere one-tenth of the amount needed.”

“…Today we enjoy a daily production of 75m bpd. But to meet projected demand in 2015, we would need to open new oilfields that can give an additional 60m bpd. This is frankly impossible. It would require the equivalent of more than 10 new regions, each the size of the North Sea. Maybe Iraq with enormous new investments will increase production by 6m bpd, and the rest of the Middle East might be able to do the same. But to suggest that the rest of the world could produce an extra 40m barrels daily is just moonshine.”

To understand US Geostrategy one needs to have a realistic appreciation of the importance of hydrocarbons, the phenomenon referred to as Peak Oil, and the importance of Iraq’s oil reserves with respect to these issues. Unfortunately, and perhaps due to the confusion surrounding the two types of data exist regarding the world’s oil reserves, “political data” and “technical data.”

Politicians, the media, and economists use political data, whereas governments, their intelligence agencies, and geologist use the much more accurate, and much more guarded, technical data. One important issue not understood by the general population is the impending geological phenomenon known as “Peak Oil.” It is rather unfortunate our corporate-controlled media conglomerates have failed to adequately report on the significance of global Peak Oil. In contrast, it appears the European community is openly discussing this issue, and trying to make preparations to reduce their overall energy consumption.

The crucial concept of Peak Oil was first illustrated in bell-shaped curves by U.S. geophysicist M. King Hubbert, who in 1956 correctly predicted U.S. oil production would peak between 1966 and 1972. 187 U.S. oil production in the lower 48 states peaked in 1970. Many oil experts disagreed with Dr. Hubbert’s analysis, and even the U.S. government did not realize domestic Peak Oil has occurred until 1971, as which point Congress requested hearings from to explain why this event surprised the USGS. Similarly, determining when global Peak oil occurs will be determined in the subsequent year or two after the actual Peak in oil production.

Each oil field in the world follows a more or less bell-shaped curve, and the composite view of the world’s thousands of oil fields is one gigantic, ragged edged looking bell-shaped curve. There are two crucial concepts to understand regarding global Peak Oil. First and foremost, once the peak is reached, the second half of the oil remaining is more difficult and expensive to extract. This is due to both physics and economic related factors. Oil companies always extract the easiest oil first, to recoup the capital intensive investment costs of oil extraction, but eventually all oil fields mature and the pressure decreases. This producing a decline in oil production, and increases the energy requirements to extract an equal amount of oil compared to the earlier phases of an oil field.

On the downside side of the ‘Hubbert’s Curve,’ a critical point is reached when it requires more energy to extract a given unit of oil than what that oil would produce from an energy perspective. This is why the world will never technically run out of oil, as it ultimately becomes too energy intensive to extract low-quality oil or oil located in certain areas of the Earth’s crust. To reiterate, the concept of EROEI occurs completely outside the construct of money/economy. The amount of “money” invested in a mature oil field is completely irrelevant if the energy required to extract the oil is greater than the energy that would be derived from recovering the oil. In such a scenario, the EROEI for that oil field becomes negative, or an “energy sink.”

Recently even Canada engaged in deceptive “reserve data” reporting practices by listing their heavy oil sands as “proven oil reserves.” 220 Canada is now listed as having more oil reserves than Iraq, and the second largest oil reserves, only behind Saudi Arabia. While Canada does have billions of barrels of oil trapped in sand, removing the sand from this heavy oil requires huge amounts of energy, mainly tremendous volumes of high pressure water. It should be noted this process creates a tremendous amount of wastewater as well. The energy returned on this process is hardly greater than the energy extracted (ERORI of 0.7), and as such its limitations must be accounted for. These and other issues illustrate the difficulty in accurately predicting Peak Oil, as the reported reserve numbers are indicative of fraudulent accounting practices.

ANWAR – False Panacea

A brief discussion of oil exploration prospects in ANWR (Alaska National Wildlife Refuge) is warranted at this point. Despite the ongoing political debate between the Republicans and Democrats over possible oil exploration in ANWR, the fact is this area is of little importance with regard to the U.S.’s energy needs. In fact, it is not helpful to frame this debate as oil and energy lobbyists vs. environmentalists, which is based on the false panacea attributed to this issue.

It is perhaps more useful to analyze other Alaskan oil fields to place this debate into the proper context. The Badami oil field between Prudhoe Bay and ANWR is about to be shut-down according to BP.239 The cumulative production of this field was 4 million barrels, but at the time of development it was reported to have 120 million barrels. Likewise, it was forecasted that its peak production would rate would reach 35,000 barrels per day (b/d). However, the actual peak oil production was only a fraction of the original projections, reaching only 3200 b/d.

The USGS (Open file 98-34) estimated in 1999 that technically recoverable oil for ANWR would range from 5.7 to 16 billion barrels, with a mean of 10.3 billion barrels. 241 The US Department of Energy (SR/O1G/2000-02) forecasted that ANWR would achieve peak output between 1.0 and 1.3 million barrels per day (mb/d) 20 years from start.

In other words, from an objective perspective ANWR’s production would be too little and too late, or a “very quick and negligible blip in the production curve.”243 If oil exploration and drilling were to take place in ANWR, we must be realistic that it will unfortunately not provide a panacea for US energy needs by any stretch of the imagination. Hence, the author is rather ambivalent about the inappropriate political issues surrounding ANWAR, as its potential contribution to US energy needs and national security is negligible when viewed from a macro perspective.


EROEI and Alternative Energy Technology
A thorough analysis of the various alternative energy sources and energy polices exceeds the scope of this book, but a short discussion of alternative energy is warranted in any discussion regarding the challenges that will be imposed by global Peak Oil. For those who wish to undertake and more through analysis of Peak Oil, the end of this chapter will include a partial listing of books the author has reviewed with respect to energy and related examination of alternative energy options. One of crucial concepts required to understand the importance of Peak Oil relates to a concept in physics commonly described as Energy Return on Energy Invested, or EROEI. Unlike the traditional financial metric referred to as Return on Investment (ROI), EROEI refers to the amount of energy spent compared to the amount of energy extracted. EROEI is illustrated as ratio between energy expended to extract a barrel of oil, versus the energy that barrel of oil will provide. From a physics perspective the amount of energy required to extract the oil after peak begins to increase irreversibly, resulting in a decrease of Energy Return on Energy Invested (EROEI), which under a certain value means the remaining oil will not be viable for transportation. Below are useful definitions of ROI and EROEI:

Economics, ROI and EROEI

ROI (Return on Investment) means the accounting is done in dollars. If an oil well produces enough oil to cover expenses with some left over, then the ROI is positive. Some oil is too expensive to produce at the current price of oil. An economist would say that that oil would be produced if the price of oil rises sufficiently.
EROEI (Energy Return on Energy Invested) means that the accounting is done in energy units. It is possible to calculate the energy cost of an oil well. Energy is required to make the steel, to run the drill, to pump the oil, etc. This energy is subtracted from the energy in the produced oil. If the result is positive, the energy return on energy invested (EROEI) is positive. Drilling for oil to get energy becomes pointless if the EROEI goes negative. That does not mean that oil wells will not be drilled. It means that oil will be used for fertilizers or plastics, but not for transport or heating.

Fifty years ago when some of the super giant oil fields were be still being discovered, an EROEI from one the oil wells of these super giants could sometimes produce an EROEI of 200. In contrast, oil wells in deep water currently achieve an EROEI of less than 5. Oil removed form tar sands have a very low EROEI of 0.7.

Once global peak oil is reached and exceeded, at some point on the downward side of the slope, the remaining oil in the ground or at the bottom of the ocean will not provide a positive EROEI. Once the energy required to extract such oil is equal or greater than the energy that would be provided by that new barrel of oil, it will no longer be logical to extract the oil. At that point the oil will simply remain in the ground.

Unfortunately politicians on the right and the left are either in to be in deep denial about this, or they dare not speak about it. Regardless, but the technical analysis is available and relatively easy to understand. Although various environmental groups advocate alternative energies, an objective analysis of the data suggests that alternatives technologies will simply not save us from a net reduction in global energy capacity in the near term. None of the alternatives in their present implementations can begin to provide the energy base currently provided by oil. This makes it more than a resource, and the drive to control what's left is more than an economic competition. Oil is not a mere commodity, as no viable substance is in place that can support the energy consumption of the industrialized economies, with the U.S. the most as risk.

(FWIW, most of that was is excerpt from my upcoming book...


FYI: The US oil *discovery* peaked in the mid-1930s, while peak oil *production* occured in 1970. So, we are well down on the Hubbert Curve, and the EROEI on oil in lower 48 states will soon hit a negative EROEI, so, most of it stays in the ground. For example, if you use expend 5,000 k/joules of power to extract a barrel of oil that produces 10,000 k/joules of power, you have a net postive gain, a 2.0 ratio on EROEI, so you keep drilling that oil well. However, after a while the oil pressure drops, the oil gets harder to extract, and once you if you expend 10,000 k/joules of energy to drill and extract 10,000 k/joules of energy, you have a zero sum situation. You simply leave whatever's oil is left in that resevious in the ground, and it does *NOT* matter how much or how litle money it takes at that point. Its a matter of *physics* - not economics. That my friend is why lots of oil here in the US is still in the ground. We won two World Wars with our lopsided oil supply relative to our enemies and our allies, but we ain't got much left....BTW, the *global* peak discovery of oil occured in 1964, and just as in the U.S. adn other oil fields, peak oil *production* typically falls about 40 years later, which is 2004...and the Bush/Cheney admin along with many of the neocons know all about this at a *deeper level* than most folks...but so does the Saudis/OPEC and the rest of the industrialized nations. That's why the never-ending, good for all occasions and locations, universal "war on terror" is such a handy thing to the neocons. Next stop...Iran)

)
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Vulture Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. The US is not wasteful
Calling the US "wasteful" because it consumes 25% of the world's oil production is bullshit, seeing as how it produces MORE than 25% of the world's GDP with that oil. If the rest of the world was as efficient in converting oil to economic output, we'd all be better off. It is also worth pointing out that the US is the food producer for a good portion of the world, another fuel intensive activity.

Any asymmetry in crude oil consumption by the US is completely forgivable, seeing as how the US converts that crude oil to useful ends more efficiently than the world at large. Its not how much you use, its what you do with it. If the US was less efficient on average in its utilization of crude oil then you would have a point, but this isn't the case. A whole lot of class warfare nonsense. If you have a limited supply, I'd just as soon give it to the people who will make the most of a limited resource.

Incidentally, the Peak Oil model is a little bit out of date scientifically and simplistic. I have friends who are geology PhDs that specialize in mining (under which petroleum prospecting falls) and they laugh at these predictions. The companies they work for generally keep a 40 year stock of reserves extractable at today's prices, and a boom in discovery in the 1990s basically means that no one is even looking for new fields any more because the backlog is sufficiently deep that it is not economical to do serious exploration. One interesting things that have resulted from some of the brand new models developed in the 1990s is that they have found oil field signs in places no one ever thought to look before (including some places in the US). These are not marked as reserves because no one has ever proven them; they are just places to prove when they clear through some of the backlog in ten or twenty years.

In short, I'm not worried and we have plenty of time to get alternative technologies right.
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rfkrocks Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Thanks Rush!
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Petrodollar Warfare Donating Member (628 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. Vulture, please check your facts...
Edited on Wed Jul-28-04 07:19 AM by GoreN4
Share of Global GDP Growth, 1995-2002

http://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch2en/conc2en/gdpgrowthregions.html

Since the mid 1990s, the dynamism of the global economy as shifted to Pacific Asia, which accounted for about 45% of the recent GDP growth. China alone accounted for 25% of the global growth of the GDP between 1995 and 2002, surpassing the United States (20%) and the European Union (14%).

Source: The Economist, November 15th 2003, p. 67.

*****

Translation: China has produced the largest growth of GDP for the past 7 years (77% of global GDP in 2002). As for the U.S. not being "wasteful"...let me introduce you to some facts.

China's population is over four times that of the United States (approx. 1.2 billion people versus approx. 294 million people), and China has accounted for the majority of economic growth in the opening years of the 21st century (see above gragh). In 2002 China consumed only 1,935 million barrels of oil per day, as compared to U.S. consumption of 7,191 m/b/d.

Hmmm, they have four times as many people, used about 1/4 of the oil that we used in 2002, yet somehow produced 76% of global growth in GDP for 2002... Sorry, your BS does not fly over here.

One more thing...

"I have friends who are geology PhDs that specialize in mining (under which petroleum prospecting falls) and they laugh at these predictions."

Whatever. That's what many "geology PhDs" said about Dr. Hubbert in 1956, but by 1971 it was clear that he was right. Hint: It's a matter of physics, not faith.

FWIW, the dedicated analysts at Langley who subscribe to the $35,000 annual report by IHS Energy on global oil production are not laughing at all...and neither are the U.S. soldiers who are being shot at, killed, and wounded in Iraq as you read this.

This is not a laughing matter, but feel free to stick your head back in the sand as the rest of us watch the rising geopolitical tensions - thanks to Dubya and the neocon fantasy of U.S. Global Dominaton...
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Hi GoreN4, nice to see you around again.
Edited on Wed Jul-28-04 07:48 AM by BlueEyedSon
Although I have no doubt that Vulture's numbers are totally wrong, you have pulled a fast one by substituting GDP growth for GDP magnitude. In fact, your stats about GDP growth could be used to support an unarticulated point in Vultures post, namely that cheap energy is the primary engine of GDP growth. Arguably, the US economy, by moving away from manufacturing and agriculture in favor of finance, IT and entertainment/media has ways of growing GDP in a less energy-intensive manner.

If anyone has the data, it would be you, so could you comment on China, US and EU fossil fuel consumption growth vs GDP growth? I would bet the correlation is clear.

It would still be instructive to see the GDP magnitude (China, US, etc) as a percent of total world GDP (especially compared to % fossil fuel use).

I think the most compelling argument you can make to anyone who understands that oil is finite is that China and India WANT A US LIFESTYLE ("China has discovered the automobile"). Imagine 2 billion more people living it up like we do here, what will that do to demand and the depletion rate?

BTW, the latest daily oil consumption numbers I have heard for the US and China are 20mbd and 6mbd, respectively.
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Vulture Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-28-04 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. You are confused
GDP growth has nothing to do with total GDP, nor is it even relevant to the discussion. If I have a $1 and double it to $2 in one year, that is phenomenal growth but completely below the noise floor in terms of being meaningful if there is a guy down the street with $1000 who grew his money by 10%.

No tangents, keep it on track. The US has higher energy conversion efficiency than most other countries. This is a problem only in that the inefficiency of other rather large countries like China means that they are burning a not insignificant fraction of the oil pie and getting relatively poor return on their consumption. Inefficiency is always the problem, not absolute consumption (beyond how differences in efficiency impact absolute consumption).
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