Study: Males with egalitarian attitudes earn substantially less than other males

[Ah Xoc Kin]

Sept. 21, 2008
Men with egalitarian attitudes about the role of women in society earn significantly less on average than men who hold more traditional views about women's place in the world, according to a study being reported today.

It is the first time social scientists have produced evidence that large numbers of men might be victims of gender-related income disparities.

The study raises the provocative possibility that a substantial part of the widely discussed gap in income between men and women who do the same work is really a gap between men with a traditional outlook and everyone else.

The differences found in the study were substantial. Men with traditional attitudes about gender roles earned $11,930 more a year than men with egalitarian views and $14,404 more than women with traditional attitudes.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26828564/

'Free' market capitalism is not free. If enough people get shut out, it's obviously going to fail.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

1. Randy Newman explains the phenomenon:

Of all of the people that I used to know
Most never adjusted to the great big world
I see them lurking in book stores
Working for the public radio
Carrying their babies around in a sack on their back
Moving careful and slow

(chorus)
Its money that matters
Hear what I say
Its money that matters
In the usa

All of these people are much brighter than i
In any fair system they would flourish and thrive
But they barely survive
They eke out a living and they barely survive

When I was a young boy, maybe thirteen
I took a hard look around me and asked what does it mean?
So I talked to my father, and he didnt know
And I talked to my friend and he didnt know
And I talked to my brother and he didnt know
And I talked to everybody that I knew

(chorus)
Its money that matters
Now you know that its true
Its money that matters
Whatever you do

Then I talked to a man lived up on the county line
I was washing his car with a friend of mine
He was a little fat guy in a red jumpsuit
I said you look kind of funny
He said I know that I do

But I got a great big house on the hill here
And a great big blonde wife inside it
And a great big pool in my backyard and another great big pool
Beside it
Sonny its money that matters, hear what I say
Its money that matters in the usa
Its money that matters
Now you know that its true
Its money that matters whatever you do

[Warpy]

2. That just means that men who step on women

are also stepping on other men in their climb up to the top of the corporate dungheap.

[Lerkfish]

9. that's what I was going to post, as well

I would expand it further by saying that jobs that REWARD the alpha male, win at all costs, screw the other guy, are jobs that pay more on average.
To me, its more a question of general conscience.

[TheWraith]

16. Precisely.

As usual, the decent people are willing to sacrifice, but being a bastard boosts your pay.

[enki23]

3. seems a little too obvious to point this out, but...

nowhere in that article did I see any discussion whatsoever about the distinct possibility that men in positions of power (eg. who make a lot of money) might be more inclined to hold a "traditional" attitude toward gender roles?

of course, my vote is that this is simply a result of the old boys' club. affirmative action for white male conservatives. it's another way of stating the reality that wealthy conservatives tend to aid and abet the careers of other conservatives. and the only recourse, if there is any, is to swamp them so thoroughly with people who do not share their prejudices that the balance begins to swing. thing is, there really aren't that many people at the top, and there will always be a pool of conservative assholes for them to work their own brand of affirmative action upon. and we are by no means an actual "meritocracy." i'm not getting my hopes up.

[zazen]

4. hard to tease out what's cause/correlation, but this rings true

And I think those women who _are_ in leadership positions who believe gender roles are just fine but that they are somehow exempt--honorary men--earn more money too. (Note I don't say all women in leadership positions, but the ones who are blind, willfully or not, to sexism.)

As someone wrote on here on a thread about Palin and women bosses, women bosses have been the best I've had and the worst I've had. And I've seen the worst ones chew up the nice, open-minded males and spit 'em out for a morning snack.

[Lorien]

5. I bet those same men with "traditional" (sexist) views also have

"traditional" views towards African Americans, Hispanics, etc. They're "me first" Americans; ruthless, greedy, and without a shred of compassion for anyone but themselves. Men with "traditional" attitudes also hold the "traditional" belief that money brings you happiness and is the only thing that can fulfill a person, so this is hardly a surprise.

[Captain Hilts]

7. Perhpas, but there are a lot of 'isms' among blacks in the US. Homophobia, for example...

is rife, as is sexism.

Everyone's got the 'isms'.

[Duke Newcombe]

10. "I don't believe in 'isms'...

A person should not believe in an “-ism,” he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, “I don’t believe in Beatles, I just believe in me.” Pretty good point, there. After all, he was The Walrus..."

Couldn't resist.

Seriously, everyone in their own mind does the math: is what I'm doing benefiting me. The folks not stepping on people to get ahead make that choice because it is more beneficial to them in the long run. The downside--we live in a fallen world, where that's unfortunately not the norm.

Duke

[Captain Hilts]

12. I completely agree. But we see tall people and assume they're smarter and more mature...

we see fat people and assume they're dumb.

We think of deep voices and English accents as authoritative.

There are a world of 'isms' out there. Smart folks don't act on them. Dumb folks do.

[RufusTFirefly]

14. I also had a problem with the word "traditional"

"Backward" or "repressive" might have been more appropriate, but I'll concede that those could be considered inflammatory. On the other hand, "traditional" gives discrimination the veneer of respectability that it definitely doesn't deserve.

[sshan2525]

6. Yeah, tell me about it.....NT

[Liberal Gramma]

8. Could this be a function of age?

Older males are more likely to have traditional views of women, and they are also at higher income levels than their sons who have more egalitarian views. Unless this study compares same-age males, I don't think it's valid.

[Captain Hilts]

13. Yes, I think it is in large part because the educational system reinforced it...

Look at McCain. He had single sex education and a single sex occupation. He's probably NEVER taken orders from a woman. EVER.

[Liberal Gramma]

17. McCain apart, many older men are sexist...and racist.

Those that can change have already done so. Those that cannot, well, that's something the country will only have to live with for another ten or twenty years, especially if society makes sexism and racism social sins like they have smoking and driving drunk.

[Klukie]

11. I think that this more of an issue of aggressive/passive natures...

of people in general. Alpha men are aggressive by nature and they tend to have a leg up as a result.

[lumberjack_jeff]

15. This seems like it would be an awfully hard study to control for.

Take two men with comparable levels of education:
a) is a paraeducator at the local grade school.
b) is a roofer for the local remodeling contractor.

Who is more likely to hold "more traditional views about women's place in the world"?
Who will earn more?

Use any two examples you wish. One in a high-risk, dirty or otherwise unpleasant job (e.g. commercial fisherman, equipment operator, garbage collector) and one in a climate controlled one.

I think, as with most studies which purport to identify income differential, what is actually being measured is the "shitty job" coefficient.