Calif. needs fossil-fired power plants: officials - Reuters

[Eugene]

Source: Reuters

Calif. needs fossil-fired power plants: officials

By Leonard Anderson
47 minutes ago

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - A "green rush" of clean, renewable
power is underway in California but the Golden State still need
powers plants burning natural gas to keep the lights on, state
energy officials said on Monday.

Coal power, however, is ruled out unless "clean coal"
technologies could capture most of the carbon emissions.

"We can't do everything with renewables," Michael Peevey,
president of the California Public Utilities Commission, said at
a clean energy forum at the San Francisco headquarters of
Pacific Gas & Electric Co., the state's biggest utility and a
subsidiary of PG&E Corp..

Some of California's older fossil-fired generating plants will
need to be replaced with fuel-efficient combined cycle units
to provide reliable "baseload" electricity to the state,
Peevey said.

-snip-

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070619/us_nm/california_energy_dc

[krispos42]

1. Ummm... no

California needs to get all of the homes in that sun-drenched state equipped with solar cells connected to the power grid.

Instead of PG&E building new power plants, they should pay their customers to put the solar cells on their roofs. The cost of building a power plant will buy a LOT of solar cell arrays instead. And the cost of buying coal will also buy a lot of solar collectors on an annual basis.

And California needs to get their regulations straightened out with tax credits and such.

[Solo_in_MD]

2. I run a good sized solar installation at home...its not quite that easy

And CA regulations and incentives are looking pretty good now. IIRC they were funded at a much higher level this year.

The core issue is that residential systems are not nearly as efficient as people think they are. Roofs with any kind of pitch to them make lousy locations. So are tile roofs. Then you need a place to put the support equipment (not every home has a garage) and work the grid tie (rules there might surprise you). Then you have to monitor them, keep them clean, etc. Its not just plug and play, it requires user knowledge and involvement.

That said, if you have a good place for one and can manage the upkeep, they can do well (ours does).

[krispos42]

9. It's easy for them, because they just have to buy your power

According to Thom Hartmann, they are doing this in Germany. The utilities have to buy back your surplus at 9 times the going rate for a period of like a decade or something. So during the daytime when your home is pumping energy into the grid, every kilowatt-hour your generate can be revisited on you ninefold without costing you a dime on your power bill.

Accordign to him, you actually make a nice little profit every month during that first decade from selling your power to the utility companies.

And in Germnany, banks were required to give you a low-interest, federally-backed loan to pay for the purchase and installation of a solar array.

In short, the power companies benefit because they don't have to build a new powerplant or worry about a carbon tax to increase capacity. Homeowners benefit because they make money every month for the first decade, and save money every year after that. The banks benefit by making a little money with secured loans. And the government benefits because their population is a little bit healthier, so there is a little bit less strain on their national health-care system.

I know it's not plug-and-play, quite, but for $200 a month I'll hose the puppy off once a week! :-)

[Solo_in_MD]

18. That kind of program will not work in the US

The margins are too small on power to support 9X. However, the CA state rebates are generous enough to make it pay within 10 years

[krispos42]

19. It's an example of something that does work

The numbers may need to be jiggered for the US, but the concept works over there and it can work over here.

If there absolutely has to be some sort of subsidy or something, I suppose that can happen.

It's a start.

[Solo_in_MD]

20. Most states already have incentives, and they are pretty good

My real concern is the over hyping of solar. Its good, and with some effort, even mildly profitable. However, some of the over hyping of it as a panacea is scary.

While the studies vary widely, no credible source has proclaimed it possible to not build more power plants based on increasing the use of alternative energy. Alternative energy can reduce the need for new plants, but not eliminate it.

[phantom power]

3. How much energy will they get per budget-$? fossil versus solar?

I bet they know the difference, and it's why they're talking fossil.

[krispos42]

6. Oh, I know that. That's why you force them to do it

Just building a new powerplant is simple, reliable technology and that's what they want to go with. Well, too bad for them.

[phantom power]

8. Personally, I don't see the point of "forcing" anybody..

to spend already-scarce money on inferior technology. Not when nuclear power is an available option to solve the GHG-free energy problem.

Would you like me to "force" you to spend $20K of your money on a PV system?

[krispos42]

10. No, I'd love to have PG&E 'forced' to pay me

for a solar cell array that will give them power to sell. See Post #9 for details.

Any new nuclear power plant will take decades to get online anyway. California can't wait decades for a new power plant. We haven't built a new one since I was born, IIRC.

And the utilities have plenty of money. They choose to spend them on bloated executive salaries, lobbyists, and political contributions.

[phantom power]

11. I think reality is going to be a big disappointment for you.

[krispos42]

12. No, because I don't expect any decisive action to be done

The same-old same-old will happen. PG&E will get the permits before BushCo leaves office and make even more CO₂ spewing powerplants. And once they drop the tens of millions of dollars into them, they will whine about their 'investment' and carbon taxes and spends millions more resisting regulation and clean energy, even though they had every opportunity to simply invest in green technology in the first place.

The decisive leadership isn't there. Fortunately, I live in Minnesota, where the air is clear and we just passed the nation's best renewable-energy standard. I think it's 20% of our electricity must be from renewable sources by 2020. Hello, windfarms!

[NickB79]

13. The Japanese can build a state-of-the-art nuclear reactor in under 5 years

Why can't Americans?

[krispos42]

14. Because they spend a decade in legal fights first

The environmentalists don't want them at all, so they tie it up in the courts. The locals get a severe case of NIMBY, so they often fight it as well.

Fun fun fun.

[XemaSab]

16. You should do some research on costs per kilowatt hour

Small scale solar panels cost WAAAAY more per kwh than coal, natural gas, or anything else.

It makes no sense for the utilities to pay that kind of money. If they did, they would have to charge the consumers MUCH more.

Yeah, there is waste in the utility companies, but not all the money consumers pay to SCE or PG&E is profit. There's the cost of maintaining existing plants and power lines, the cost of bringing new plants and power lines on board, and the cost of the energy itself.

Do you really want to pay 5 times more on your monthly bill? 'Cause that's what shifting over to solar would do. Also, the utilities would have to keep and maintain the existing plants for when it's dark... or foggy... or rainy. And trust me, large parts of California are frequently dark... or foggy... or rainy.

[XemaSab]

15. Solar cannot provide baseload power

without heavy duty batteries.

The sun is literally setting here right now, and the gas, coal, and hydro power plants are running strong to bring you my post. :D

[NNadir]

4. Ridiculous. They will soon have brazillions of solar roofs.

Governor Hydrogen Hummer was re-elected for promising just that, and it's not like he was distorting things. Why he's on the cover of Time Magazine since his program has been so successful.

[Solo_in_MD]

21. you forgot your sarcasm tag....

[hunter]

5. The highway ahead is closed, and it ends at the face of a rock cliff.

But we are not reducing our dependence on natural gas, instead we seem to be hoping for huge ships full of LNG to appear by some magic on our coasts.

It's not going to happen, and we are not going to pass through the rock Buckaroo Bonzai style into another dimension.

If we had any sense we'd be replacing natural gas fired power plants with nuclear and/or very large scale desert solar thermal plants and building a smart power grid just as fast as we could.

Instead we are going to piddle away our opportunities on things like rooftop solar.

[Javaman]

7. I give it at the outside about another 5 years until rationing begins. nt

[XemaSab]

17. We already had rolling blackouts in the summer

:P