Are fuel cells the future?

[OKIsItJustMe]

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080210/BUSINESS/802100305/1001

Are fuel cells the future?

Honeoye Falls lab that makes them hopes so, but several hurdles remain.

Matthew Daneman
Staff writer

(February 10, 2008) — The future is a sport utility vehicle.

Specifically, the future — if auto giant General Motors is right — is 100 Chevy Equinoxes powered by fuel cell systems made in Honeoye Falls and being put into the hands of drivers around the country now.

By year's end, everyday drivers in the New York City and Washington, D.C., metro areas and southern California will be behind the wheels of the specially made Equinoxes as GM experiments with powertrains that it and much of the auto industry are predicting someday will replace the combustion engine.

"We're talking an electrochemical plant under your hood, no combustion," said Matthew H. Fronk, director of GM's fuel cell lab in Honeoye Falls.

...

[louis-t]

1. Good to keep options open, however....

I don't believe it will ever take off, simply because stupidface says it's a good thing. We know what his track record is.

[Warpy]

2. Using the cheap thin film PVCs to power the electrolysis

to make the hydrogen and oxygen to fuel the fuel cells, you bet this is in our future.

We'll have to get rid of the oily GOP, though.

[speedbird]

3. no advantage over battery electric cars

battery electric cars are much closer than
fuel cells

[OKIsItJustMe]

4. Really?

How fast can you recharge a battery?
How fast can you refill a hydrogen tank?

[speedbird]

5. 10 minutes, for a 50% charge

where do you get the Hydrogen?

[OKIsItJustMe]

6. Where's your charger? n/t

[speedbird]

7. Israel plans to install thousands of chargers

you will find this story interesting
http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/jan2008/gb20080125_533039.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index_global+business

[OKIsItJustMe]

12. Yes, I was familiar with this

It's pretty easy to refill a hydrogen tank.
Replacing a battery pack is much more of a bear.

...

Israelis will get their first glimpse of the electric car by the end of the year, as dozens are expected to hit local roads for testing. Until commercial sales begin three years from now, Better Place plans to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in the necessary infrastructure to support the cars, including an extensive network of charging points and hundreds of stations where owners can replace empty batteries. But equally important, the Palo Alto (Calif.) company will have to invest in educating the Israeli public about the benefits of switching to a new technology.

...

Any current gas station which has an electric supply and a water supply can become a hydrogen filling station in a fairly straight-forward manner.

Hydrogen can be burned in ICE's with little modification. (Converting existing cars to electricity is another matter.)

Hydrogen-burning ICE cars and hydrogen fuel cell cars could use the same filling "pumps."

[TheWraith]

10. Some battery chemistries are capable of 80% in five minutes, although

These would need more testing before widespread production.

Even if it took longer, though, I don't really see it having that much of an impact on people. How many people drive more than, say, 150-200 miles without some kind of respite? And if refueling your car was as easy as plugging it into the wall of the garage, people would be less inclined not to stay topped up. Perhaps luxury models could be sold with a fuel-cell backup system, just for those times when someone would want it.

[OKIsItJustMe]

13. Generally, I agree

However, I don't think we can simply wave our hands and say, "Electric cars are more practical than hydrogen-fueled cars."

First: You will not replace the entire fleet of automobiles overnight. Converting from gasoline to hydrogen is relatively straight-forward.
http://www.hydrogennow.org/Facts/Theautomobile.htm

[Ready4Change]

8. I agree. I think full electric will 'eventually' take over.

In the long run I think a battery technology more similar to capacitors will take over transportation power needs.

However, there will likely be a very long transition between liquid fuels and overwhelmingly electric transport power. Involved in that will be the death throes of the petroleum industry, which will make a strong run with other sellable, and controllable, fuels. Since the Bush administration is pushing hydrogen, I assume that's the fuel which that industry sees as it's next big thing.

I'd rather see algae derived bio-deisel act as the stepping stone to full electric, but I somehow suspect the powers that be don't give a hoot about my opinion.

[speedbird]

9. just because Bush pushes hydrogen ...

does not imply that industry believes in hydrogen.

....
the conversion to electric will happen faster than you think,
if for no other reason, economics

[TheWraith]

11. Electric just makes sense.

It's easier to store than any kind of chemical fuel, can be produced quickly from any kind of energy source, and is already available almost everywhere. Plus it's cheap. Electric cars would run maybe 2 cents per mile. Not to mention there's all sorts of performance boosts to be had.

[OKIsItJustMe]

14. A hydrogen fuel cell car is an electric car

The difference is that rather than having a chemical battery pack, there's a hydrogen tank and fuel cell.

At this time, it's much easier to refill a hydrogen supply than a battery supply.

BTW: For those who don't like the idea of a high-pressure tank in your car, the way to go may be solid storage (using metal hydrides)
http://www.ovonic-hydrogen.com/products/motive.htm

[Ready4Change]

16. I'm thinking of it the other way around.

I've always thought of Bush as a puppet. It's not him who is pushing H. He's just saying hydrogen because that's what he's been coached to say. Coached by people who stand to make money via hydrogen. He'd be pushing licorice as a fuel if that's what the speaker in his ear told him to say.

[OKIsItJustMe]

15. FWIW: A Paper on the "Hydrogen Economy" by the inventer of the NiMH

http://www.ovonic.com/PDFs/featured_solutions/ovshinksy-ihec2005_turkey.pdf

Proceedings International Hydrogen Energy Congress and Exhibition IHEC 2005
Istanbul, Turkey, 13-15 July 2005

The Hydrogen Loop – The Means for Making the Hydrogen Economy Realistic

Stanford R. Ovshinsky

Energy Conversion Devices, Inc., 2956 Waterview Drive, Rochester Hills, Michigan 48309
(USA)
[e-mail]

ABSTRACT

The hydrogen economy has already started with the introduction of the Ovonic nickel metal hydride battery which has enabled the rapid growth of hybrid vehicles. Reversible storage of hydrogen in a solid hydride permits the entire loop of hydrogen generation, storage and utilization, all of which have been placed some time in the future. It is often stated that the hydrogen infrastructure does not exist and cannot be put in place. I will show that the hydrogen economy based upon hydrogen, the ultimate fuel, is practical, realistic and is available near-term to our global society. The crisis regarding global warming, pollution, and wars over oil can be solved, at the same time building much needed basic new industries, providing higher value jobs feeding back on the educational system.

...

[kentauros]

17. Y'all really need to read

TreeHugger more often ;)

Nanoptek Combines Sunlight and a Nanostructured Photocatalyst to Produce Cheap Hydrogen

E. Coli: The Next Big Source of Hydrogen Fuel?

:)