Here’s a bad idea: Gas from trees

[Ichingcarpenter]

Already, Weyerhaeuser and Chevron have joined forces to develop “treecell technology” to manufacture cellulosic ethanol. As you read this, ethanol factories are popping up across the United States like gaping mouths hungry for a constant supply of forest. And, conveniently, just when industry develops the technology to exploit even the smallest tree for profit, the Forest Service announces that “more than half of Oregon’s 29.7 million acres of forest lands” are overgrown and in need of “thinning” to keep down fire risk. What a coincidence!

http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms/sites/dt.cms.support.viewStory.cls?cid=96663&sid=5&fid=1

[shrdlu]

1. Where are operational cellulosic plants popping up?

[depakid]

2. Actually, there IS a need for thinning some second growth forests

and it happens all too rarely with clear cut sites on public lands.

Done selectively, it's a good forest management practice- and rather than waste the trees (or burn slash, for that matter) seems to me that ethanol production is a good a use as any.

[phantom power]

4. With 7 billion people, very little is going to be done selectively.

I think that's the rub.

[depakid]

5. No doubt about that

The timber industry (and its advocates) refused to accept the notion of sustained yield throughout the 70's and 80's -inevitably resulting in boom bust cycles throughout rural Oregon which, contrary to the popular opinion, had little to do with the spotted owl.

[losthills]

10. Forests do not need to be thinned.

Clearcutting is the only type of logging practiced in this country. What they call thinning is just clearcutting in a checkerboard pattern. Thinning does not reduce fire danger-- it increases it. Making fuel from trees is the worst idea that has ever been proposed, and if we let it get started our forests will be doomed.

[Zachstar]

14. BS

[depakid]

19. Where to begin?

Yes, forests do need to be thinned in places- second replanted growth west of the Cascades is as thick as weeds.

And no, clearcutting isn't the only management practice. Depends on where you are.

[Zachstar]

3. Simple fact is cellulosic ethanol is badly needed

And it needs to be lower price than corn ethanol ASAP.

I love trees as well but when corn supplies are being diverted into fuel production there is a serious problem.

Trees or whatever are just the first step of cellulosic ethanol.. We are within half a decade from cheap ways to use crap grass to make fuel.

It will take decades to convert the gas ecnomony to fuel cell or electric. Until then something HAS to be done to put a serious dent in gas prices before the economy fails.

[pscot]

6. You are looking for a way to keep doing what we're doing

That vein is played out. We're done growing. We aren't going to be able to maintain what we have. We're expending more energy than we're putting into the system. There are seven billion of us on the bus, the brakes are burned out and we're starting down a 10% grade. You're going to have to do better than cellulosic ethanol.

[Zachstar]

7. And I will.

Setting national normal speed limit to sweet spot. <<--- Only idiots with tons of money will complain that they can rev their gas sucking monsters to 70-80 and it will give truckers a much needed range boost.

Federal program to expand the use of electric cars on the road <<--- While coal is nasty it is MUCH better for the atmosphere burned at the plant with serious safety and collection system than gas burned in a tank with a simple converter on the back. Also EEstor batteries are much lighter and efficient than Li-Ion.

Research into technology that reduces waste heat from Fission plants so they can run at higher levels to get more of the grid on them and not coal and oil plants.

Outlawing filimant based bulbs to be sold above 10 watts.

All price control programs for food ended.

Rebirth of Victory Gardens

Then fusion when those run out of benefit.

[losthills]

11. Ethanol is not needed.

It's a scam and a fraud. We can convert our fleet to electric easily and quickly, and it's time to do it.

[Zachstar]

15. Then do so out of your own pocketbook the whole fleet.

Because if it was that easy to do so it would have been done by now.

The batteries are toxic and heavy.

The transmissions aren't great.

I hate ethanol more because it is made from food crops today. However once they get to where they can get it from switchgrass and crap trees and waste wood it will be a great transition fuel as we start to move towards an electric future.

Otherwise pay for the instant transition out of your own pocketbook because I am not willing to pay out the rear end to get the car converted.

[losthills]

17. Good thing that fusion is going to save us!!

[Zachstar]

18. Again are you going to pay for the fleet to be converted? (Ignoring your lame comeback)

Or is this again your fantasy world in my view?

Seriously converting to electric is NOT going to happen overnight and you have likely forgotten what all those vehicles hooked up to the grid mean.

The grid can't really handle the load as it is. It will need time to adapt.

And don't start crap about "Oh no need for teh grid we use solar and winds!!!111!!" Again if you will pay for it I will put the panels on the top of my house and the windmill in the yard.

So this aint magical happy bunnies that cars get converted to electric. It is a serious multistep process that requires effort on all levels.

[excess_3]

8. worse idea, oil from the middle east. n/t

[NickB79]

9. I don't think there's much difference in the end, really

Use Middle East oil and pollute the air.

Produce gas from trees and clearcut massive tracts of forest.

It's like asking if you'd rather be shot in the head with a 9mm or a .45, they'll both kill you anyway.

[excess_3]

12. middle east oil --> human suffering

I feel that the 'land-clearing causes CO2',
is highly variable,



what if scubland is used,
instead of rain forest

[losthills]

13. How many endangered species are you willing to sacrifice?

[Zachstar]

16. Lets see

Do nothing + economic disaster = people cutting down habitats for fuel is desperation and hunting for food = Mass death of endangered species

Do something + manage it properly = Some loss but not nearly as bad as doing nothing.